Figure Skating and Classical Ballet

[Anna K.]

Question for those who much more knowledgeable than me about ballet....

I haven't seen Oksana Baiul referenced yet in this discussion. I remember her doing a program (maybe an exhibition) to "The Swan". I thought she looked quite balletic in her movements. Would she qualify as a "balletic skater", or was it just to my untrained eye?

Also, I remember Yukari Nakano doing a SP in the late 2000's to "Giselle" where part of the footwork sequence was definitely from the ballet. I wouldn't qualify her as "balletic" (although I thought she was very artistic), but that part of the program was.

Thanks.

Thank you for your question!
I'm not the most knowledgeable ballet person in this thread either but I have thought about referencing Oksana. Here is her Swan Lake short program, Lillehammer, 1994, with some bent knees (that's why I actually prefer her musical-themed free skate where her pose with bent knees looks more appropriate to me). But she is definitely an actress on ice, so involved emotionally!




And here is her exhibition, The Swan:

 

[Anna K.]

I feel like I have absolutely no knowledge with which to contribute to this, but I wondered if anyone wanted to comment on Emmanuel Sandhu? I know he has done the nutcracker for instance as a professional, but it was more that I was listening to a PJ Kwong podcast on him in which he talked a LOT about his ballet training. He did not tend to skate to specifically ballet music when he was skating competitively, but I felt like his ballet training could be seen everywhere. I would love if anyone with more knowledge of ballet could give an opinion?

That's true, he didn't skate to ballet music competitively, but I think this counts as his tribute to Tchaikovsky:




And he has done also Swan Lake professionally (here with Adelina Sotnikova):



Btw this video is apparently hand-recorded. I wonder if an official TV version exists?

That much for now; but I hope this is not the last time when this amazing skater and choreographer gets mentioned in this thread!

 

[lesnar001]

Thank you for your question!
I'm not the most knowledgeable ballet person in this thread either but I have thought about referencing Oksana. Here is her Swan Lake short program, Lillehammer, 1994, with some bent knees (that's why I actually prefer her musical-themed free skate where her pose with bent knees looks more appropriate to me). But she is definitely an actress on ice, so involved emotionally!


And here is her exhibition, The Swan:

Thank you so much.

I don't know anything about proper posture, leg placements, or any other "technical" stuff regarding ballet. I was remembering how she mimicked (and I mean that in a good way) ballet moves like dancing on her toes and particularly the footwork section in "Swan Lake" . And of course, the way she moved her arms - especially in "The Swan". Over all these years, I always remembered (and loved) her ending pose from "The Swan".

 

[kolyadafan2002]

What a nice thread!
I had of course Sasha Cohen in mind because she was not literally balletic but still she had it. I didn't know this Dorothy Hamill Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy, it's really the variation, that's a nice holiday treat for family time with young children too. Nor John Curry, I think I will love him even more. Alina Zagitova had an energy, freshness and cheerfulness quite fitting to Kitri and I still love it but John Curry's program is simply beautiful.
I found that Misha Kolyada has a great many tidbits of the ballet, that they are very well done and give an overall strong evocation but for me as a whole it is not the ballet, it is more a great tribute, I don't know how to say it. He's still a skater who's skating and while skating he does many very good ballet moves, mostly with upper body.
Anna Shcherbakova doesn't skate to ballet music but her port-de-bras is still the most literally balletic I know.
Years ago I believed Kamila Valieva would skate a bit this way but no.
Dawn825 I see what you mean (or maybe I'm mistaken) and I'd agree that Alyona has a sort of organic (I don't mean innate, I don't know) balletic basis but in my opinion her language is more modern-jazz than classical or neo-classical ballet.
I would say the same about Yuzuru Hanyu. Without ballet classes he caught incredibly well the basis and created his own dancing on ice language.
I really didn't get it about Nathan Chen, MrRice. I know he's taken ballet classes but I've never seen anything balletic, or ballet-based, in any of his skates, yet I had to watch several times and partly in slowdown several of his last skates. Could you tell where you found balletic moves or postures?
But there we may reach the core of the question. For me it's not balletic posture vs knee bend. My (mere) impression is that a balletic posture will always need good knee bend. It's when a skater insists a lot on this knee bend that we get a more "skating" and less "balletic" style, like Patrick Chan or Jason Brown, it's another aesthetics. When there's a lack of knee bend like with Nathan Chen I don't think any balletic, or balletic-based style can be achieved. Flexibility helps but I really don't think a skater needs great flexibility to be balletic, ballet dancers used to be less flexible in old times and still great.

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He has better skating skills now,
But in terms or choreography, looks very balletic to me.
As well as his Glass worlds FS.
He gets a reasonable of kneebend, but his back is relatively stiff so it looks like less than others. He's no keegan messing with kneebend, but he's not terrible.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

I feel like I have absolutely no knowledge with which to contribute to this, but I wondered if anyone wanted to comment on Emmanuel Sandhu? I know he has done the nutcracker for instance as a professional, but it was more that I was listening to a PJ Kwong podcast on him in which he talked a LOT about his ballet training. He did not tend to skate to specifically ballet music when he was skating competitively, but I felt like his ballet training could be seen everywhere. I would love if anyone with more knowledge of ballet could give an opinion?

Slightly OT but funny story, Emanuel turned up a couple of years ago in a drop-in ballet class I was at. Nobody recognised him at first, as most of us folk don't follow skating much. He could pick up combinations well enough but seemed a bit stiff/rusty, so we just assumed he was another busy working adult who'd danced as a kid.
But then as class went on some little things stood out here and there, like a very long balance in attitude... Then turning exercises started and he began whipping out chaine turns like a human blending machine, at which point the teacher finally recognised him with delight (she'd worked at the National Ballet School when he was a student).

I also accidentally ended up in class with Shin Amano once He has great pirouettes! Seems like another skater who pursued ballet to a more-than-supplementary level. I now start to suspect that a fellow ballet class-goer is a skater in disguise if they are a CCW turner (less common in ballet) with explosive jumps but slightly iffy arms/head-spotting. There's also something subtly different about the leg/foot muscle development.

 

[Anna K.]

Slightly OT but funny story, Emanuel turned up a couple of years ago in a drop-in ballet class I was at. Nobody recognised him at first, as most of us folk don't follow skating much. He could pick up combinations well enough but seemed a bit stiff/rusty, so we just assumed he was another busy working adult who'd danced as a kid.
But then as class went on some little things stood out here and there, like a very long balance in attitude... Then turning exercises started and he began whipping out chaine turns like a human blending machine, at which point the teacher finally recognised him with delight (she'd worked at the National Ballet School when he was a student).

I also accidentally ended up in class with Shin Amano once He has great pirouettes! Seems like another skater who pursued ballet to a more-than-supplementary level. I now start to suspect that a fellow ballet class-goer is a skater in disguise if they are a CCW turner (less common in ballet) with explosive jumps but slightly iffy arms/head-spotting. There's also something subtly different about the leg/foot muscle development.

How can Emmanuel Sandhu in a ballet class be OT? This is embodiment of figure skating and classical ballet

 

[el henry]

I also love hearing about Shin Amano in a ballet class.

Hopefully he did not scrutinize his fellow student's jumps too closely.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

- YouTube

Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.

youtu.be

He has better skating skills now,
But in terms or choreography, looks very balletic to me.
As well as his Glass worlds FS.
He gets a reasonable of kneebend, but his back is relatively stiff so it looks like less than others. He's no keegan messing with kneebend, but he's not terrible.

Indeed he progressed a lot in multidirectional skating, one foot skating, deeper edges but he had then an ease, all looked natural and that's so important in ballet too. You're right his back was a bit stiff when compared with most principals (though I half remember one former First Soloist at the Mariinsky who could advantageously have taken young Nathan Chen as a model) he does have the right arm movements and the posture of someone who really feels ballet (and I knew he was musical). Even his back I would call it between stiff and upright. And no ugly crossovers, there are even delightful/addictive backwards crossrolls in his step sequence, not balletic at all, rather pure beautiful skating style, and so many beautiful inventive moves. I knew this program would be good because LutzDance recommended it but I didn't expect to be that impressed, sorry for the off-topic. The choreography was perfect to enhance his beautiful qualities without needing more than what a talented 17yo skater could do creditably, and he delivered.
This being said and it's Alex Fedorov who made me think about it with Urmanov's Rothbart owl arm moves, this was more the character dance side of the Rothbart part and maybe we could view this sort of program inspired by ballet parts/musics, with many arm movements and/or attitudes reminiscent of it, in the same way as character dance evokes real animals, specific people (thank you Anna K for this ROH Coppelia, this is my preferred version, Carlos Acosta is my preferred Franz, Leanne Benjamin quite convincing and this young character dancer who also danced the grandfather in 2001 ROH Nutcracker is really sooo good) while rarely being literal about them.

 

[LutzDance]

In Misha's case though I'd refer to cases of classical ballet where, when the character demands it, namely when the character is a doll like Nutcracker or mechanical dolls in Coppelia https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6F0lo3Izaog , "wooden" elbows are there and just as balletic as everything else. Since Nutcracker's story is one about a doll turning into a prince and back, I think Misha's choreography did a decent job here.

I agree Misha's choreography aims to mimic the "wooden-ess" of the doll rather than the gracefulness one usually associates with the pas de deux - I believe he/his team said as much. For me, such mechanical looking miming is like flexed feet you'd see in some character dances - they do not operate on the canonical language of classical ballet and exist as a brief detour from traditional elegance. In other words they are the spice rather than the staple. Anyways, didn't mean to tear him down, hopefully people who enjoy this program for either its proximity to the festive ballet or for giggles will continue to do so

Speaking of character dances, Alysa Liu's SP this season, one of my favorite women's programs this year, is the Gypsy Dance from Don Quixote. I find both the delightful choreography and her lively performance to be quite authentic to the spirit of the music, and certain poses a direct yet organic tribute to the ballet choreography. However, I wouldn't say it's a prime example of a balletic program, as the moves inspired by character dances or entailed by the music thereof differ from those based on the classical dance vocabulary.

That's true, he didn't skate to ballet music competitively, but I think this counts as his tribute to Tchaikovsky:

I think it's inspired by Balanchine's Serenade: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd9R9S6-9E4 Interesting that here he moves with classical exactitude rather than neoclassical freedom as epitomized in the ballet.

Slightly OT but funny story, Emanuel turned up a couple of years ago in a drop-in ballet class I was at. Nobody recognised him at first, as most of us folk don't follow skating much. He could pick up combinations well enough but seemed a bit stiff/rusty, so we just assumed he was another busy working adult who'd danced as a kid.
But then as class went on some little things stood out here and there, like a very long balance in attitude... Then turning exercises started and he began whipping out chaine turns like a human blending machine, at which point the teacher finally recognised him with delight (she'd worked at the National Ballet School when he was a student).

I also accidentally ended up in class with Shin Amano once He has great pirouettes! Seems like another skater who pursued ballet to a more-than-supplementary level. I now start to suspect that a fellow ballet class-goer is a skater in disguise if they are a CCW turner (less common in ballet) with explosive jumps but slightly iffy arms/head-spotting. There's also something subtly different about the leg/foot muscle development.

I love your story!! I always consider the ability to turn like crazy with spotting technique that could give your dance teacher a heart attack to be a tell-tale sign of a skater-disguised-as-a-dancer I also wonder if skaters tend to neglect turning out their supporting leg, as it's something you absolutely do not want to do on the ice. Asking because a dancer complained to my skating friend about the general lack of turnout from the skating leg in spirals And yes, I'm imagining Mr. Amano mentally noting his classmates being a quarter short on their double tour en l'air or triple pirouette - certainly wouldn't put it pass him!

 

[sworddance21]

Yes, I kept track of him over the years and he definitely became more controlled from around the mid-2010s onward (after a couple of years in Canada/physically maturing further). Personally I would describe Yuzuru's movement style and programme choices as more modern/contemporary (except the Chopin SP which was choreographed in a balletic way). Those exhibition programmes in particular have more of a lyrical dance influence.

Ballet does require back movement but it's quite different from the torso contractions you find in stuff like Graham and other modern techniques. Ashton ballets are known for side-to-side lilting of the torso, and Bournonville has distinctive shoulder/head epaulement, but classical ballet generally has more spinal extension than flexion and the shoulderblades stay anchored down and flat. In fact Vaganova in particular has a more strictly prescribed range of spinal motion; the traditional Russian forward cambre is a pure hip hinge, whereas in other styles (e.g. RAD) it's a hinge-forward with roll-up recovery (which gets kinda confusing sometimes when substitute teachers take class...)

'Noodly' might be considered a pejorative by some, maybe a more neutral term is 'loose/free'. So I don't think Yuzuru utilises classical ballet vocabulary in the way he moves his shoulders and head, but it's his own style of artistic expression, nothing bad about that.

What a wonderfully thoughtful explanation. I, rather lazily, second all that you said.

 

[Alex Fedorov]

Excerpt from an interview with Olga Smirnova, prima ballerina of the Bolshoi Theater (published on December 14):

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www.gazeta.ru

Some performers can make their skating work of art. At one time I admired the programs of Evgeni Plushenko, and now I really like Kamila Valieva and Anna Shcherbakova. The latest generation of young skaters are performing miracles in technique. But they also add expressiveness and meaning to the movement. For me, art arises when there is an image, when technology is not an end in itself, but an instrument of expressiveness. Of course, in sports, the main thing is the result, that is, the technique. I love watching the programs of Kamila and Anya, because they know how to combine movement, music, technique and emotions. This is a talent when a meaningful story is obtained and there is an image. And immediately for me figure skating becomes more than a sport. At the Olympics, I will definitely be rooting for our talented girls.

- Kamila Valieva studied at the ballet academy. Recently you also studied ballet with her. Is Kamila really capable of becoming a ballerina?

If Kamila decided to become a ballerina, I'm sure she would have succeeded. Because she possesses such natural gifts as high bodily abilities and musicality. Everything else can be taught.

- Alina Zagitova took gold at the Olympics with a free program to music from the ballet Don Quixote. You also danced this ballet. Did you like Alina's performance?

I really like Alina, especially her latest programs "Me voy" and "Cleopatra", which were very expressive and theatrical. She created a special atmosphere, and I forgot to worry about jumping, I enjoyed her dancing. Once I was conquered with her fragile dance by Yulia Lipnitskaya, and then Alina - all these are students of Eteri Tutberidze. I believe that now is the golden age in Russian women's figure skating.

 

[Giu]

I know little to nothing about classical ballet, but I've always thought that Machida had a beautiful classic posture... what do you think guys?

 

[Anna K.]

I know little to nothing about classical ballet, but I've always thought that Machida had a beautiful classic posture... what do you think guys?

Actually, I had big trouble finding something more or less balletic from him. He had a Swan Lake program but he was very young then and focusing mainly on elements. So, it is not a good example.

This one might be though:



It kind of made me feel regret that he hasn't done more ballet-oriented stuff

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

I think it's inspired by Balanchine's Serenade: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd9R9S6-9E4 Interesting that here he moves with classical exactitude rather than neoclassical freedom as epitomized in the ballet.

Balanchine was no Martha Graham though, his direction was quite precise, even more so than classical ballet sometimes. At least this is my impression.

@Anna K. , he also skated to Stravinsky's Firebird but not in a balletic style.

 

[el henry]

How could I forget to post this?

A professional program, so maybe not fair, but still so so so ahead of his time. My beloved Toller and his Firebird:

 

[Anna K.]

@Anna K. , he also skated to Stravinsky's Firebird but not in a balletic style.

Yes, and to Don Quixote (we are talking about Machida, right?) and still not much balletic style to show off (he had some Lambiel style to show off in that program though ). That's what I call trouble
l almost posted a link to his F.U.Y.A. program (techno music) as most balletic

Anyway, I love this thread. Someone mentions Firebird and next moment a beautiful video emerges (I'm wondering if that musical style is vintage techno? )

 

[Anna K.]

So, after that, should I post more from [proper] Stravinsky or more from [proper indeed] Toller Cranston?

Here you go.

Toller Cranston as Tybalt in Romeo and Juliet. Not a vintage techno version, thankfully, although the original ballet music is a bit "improved" for the show purposes. By the way, how would you define such genre - ballet on ice, an ice show... your version?

 

[el henry]

So, after that, should I post more from [proper] Stravinsky or more from [proper indeed] Toller Cranston?

Here you go.

Toller Cranston as Tybalt in Romeo and Juliet. Not a vintage techno version, thankfully, although the original ballet music is a bit "improved" for the show purposes. By the way, how would you define such genre - ballet on ice, an ice show... your version?

Thank you for posting. I should have warned folks about the techno Firebird, but I thought it might be more interesting to discover for oneself the ways that Toller was ahead of his time. Including techno ballet.

This obituary makes references to his balletic style:

Toller Cranston, ‘the Nureyev’ of Figure Skating, Dies at 65 (Published 2015)

A flamboyant Canadian figure skater with a style often likened to dancing, Mr. Cranston played a major role in popularizing his sport.

www.nytimes.com

Cranston, who retired from competition after the 1976 Olympics, displayed his form for New Yorkers in May 1977 when he headlined “Toller Cranston’s the Ice Show” at the Palace.

“He has the same flamboyance and daring of the Soviet ballet stars at their most entertaining,” the dance critic Anna Kisselgoff wrote in The New York Times. “Mr. Cranston has all the superstar spins and turns in the air and split jumps you want. But there are also the kicks, turns on the knees and a great deal of arm waving with splayed fingers.”

 

[Anna K.]

I should have warned folks about the techno Firebird, but I thought it might be more interesting to discover for oneself the ways that Toller was ahead of his time. Including techno ballet.

Toller Cranston was ahead of his time indeed. It took long 25 years until a techno swan (more precisely, a Hip-Hop Swan ) landed on the world stage. Since we don't have Toller's competition version of The Firebird, I also post Daisuke's exhibition version here. Not like it makes much sense, rather it's just a tribute.

With this, I also wish Daisuke and everybody the best of luck in the upcoming Japanese Nationals and I hope this competition will give us something to discuss in this thread, too. (I have no doubt that the upcoming Russian Nationals will give us something to talk about here and I have a little tribute in mind but I'll leave that for later.)

 

[Parsifal3363]

Polina Edmunds

Here are a few moments of Polina Edmunds practicing for an ice show that was offered at the Patchogue Theater for the Performing Arts in Long Island last weekend:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CXrtROGpTjU/

Polina had twice been the silver medalist at the U.S. National Figure Skating Championships and won the Four Continents competition before suffering a career ending foot injury. With the pandemic curtailing the competitions she needed to regain her competitive form, she abandoned a comeback and retired last year. Having graduated from college, she now does podcasts on figure skating, commentating on competitions, and teaching skating techniques.

What I loved about her skating was its dance-like quality, so like that of Oksana Baiul. This often cost her in competitions, since judges seemed reluctant to reward a style that was so different from that of other skaters. As this clip shows, however, it allows for movement on the ice that beautifully complements the music. While she is no longer a competitive skater, her skating remains as it was, a ballet on ice.