Flutzing

[herro]

I am not sure the connection between the take-off and air rotations before landing for Edge Jumps. It seems many posters don't really care about how a skater takes off for a jump or even the actual rotations of the jumps, but for some odd reason they care about under rotations on the landings. mess up your take offs, cut short your rotations as less then intent, but be sure to land whatever you do near perfectly

Hmm, I'm not quite sure where the confusion is hapenning. It's not that people don't care about takeoffs - the main point is that people are placing unneeded attention on this so-called "pre-rotation" when it is a natural part of the jumps. This is what I've been trying to say. For edge jumps, there's some obvious "pre-rotation" that is necessary for the mechanics of the jump. You have to sit on that edge and push off the ice on a curve or edge jumps to work. I've been skating for awhile, so this isn't something I'm making up or something that was just invented. I would say that for edge jumps, it would be safe to treat the takeoff to be the direction in which your skates are pointing before the "pre-rotation" - at least closer to that than the exact point where the blade leaves the ice.

As far as your opinion about the relative importance of takeoffs and landings, I would venture to say that takeoffs (or more specifically, pre-rotation - takeoff edges have been obviously scrutinized of course) are not given as much weight as landings precisely because of what I've been pointing out. The takeoff position is generally implied to be the direction in which your blade is pointing before the pre-rotation. For example, on the loop (sorry for the redundancy), it would be the direction your blades are pointing as you are sitting on that back outside edge right before the snap and hook of the "pre-rotation." And skaters who land in this same direction are given credit - because that's how the jumps work. This also precisely demonstrates my point earlier - I feel like this whole thing about pre-rotation came about relatively recently (in the Mao and Yuna era). In the past, the takeoff, I feel, was viewed as I've explained here, unless there was an obvious case - like the toe-axel.

Anyways, sorry to carp so much about this, when the thread is about flutzing... hwell:

 

[Mathman]

About "compensating" for pre-rotation by rotating three complete turns in the air -- if you did that you would land with your blade sideways and immediately fall. Right?

 

[Nadine]

All's I know is that after a week of intensely studying Russian (& European) skaters' technique on this particular jump (i.e. the 3lutz), I've come to the conclusion that their superiority on this particular jump is both a combination of technique and natural innate ability to jump high. Case in point Irina Slutskaya, Julia Sebestyen, Oksana Baiul. Whereas some others are just average when it comes to jumping ability (aka Maria Butyrskaya), which gives me hope for the American ladies, they just need to be taught to do it correctly. None except someone like Agnes Zawadzki will earn +3 on it, but that's alright, as long as it's done correctly they won't lose any points at least, that's a beginning. Though I hope for more for skaters of the future...

Now back to the Japanese lady skaters, I find they're in the same situation as the American ladies (including flutzing), though a few of their skaters jump higher than the Americans, but not as high as the most gifted of the Russian/European ladies imho.

 

[prettykeys]

Now back to the Japanese lady skaters, I find they're in the same situation as the American ladies (including flutzing), though a few of their skaters jump higher than the Americans, but not as high as the most gifted of the Russian/European ladies imho.

And Midori Ito...

 

[Mathman]

^ I see you you have changed your Yu-na Kim avatar and now have a picture of yourself.

I also note that you have a new Custom Title. If you are trying to drive me crazy, it didn't work -- only wasted 20 minutes of my time checking for software glitches.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

As far as your opinion about the relative importance of takeoffs and landings, I would venture to say that takeoffs (or more specifically, pre-rotation - takeoff edges have been obviously scrutinized of course) are not given as much weight as landings precisely because of what I've been pointing out. The takeoff position is generally implied to be the direction in which your blade is pointing before the pre-rotation. For example, on the loop (sorry for the redundancy), it would be the direction your blades are pointing as you are sitting on that back outside edge right before the snap and hook of the "pre-rotation." And skaters who land in this same direction are given credit - because that's how the jumps work. This also precisely demonstrates my point earlier - I feel like this whole thing about pre-rotation came about relatively recently (in the Mao and Yuna era). In the past, the takeoff, I feel, was viewed as I've explained here, unless there was an obvious case - like the toe-axel.

Very well put, Herro. I agree and that's my point, the take-off and landing should be where the blades are pointing just prior to where the takeoff occurs.

Anyways, sorry to carp so much about this, when the thread is about flutzing... hwell:

True but we could think of prerotations as wrong edge takeoffs.

 

[mskater93]

True but we could think of prerotations as wrong edge takeoffs.
laugh:

Except you'd be the only one who thinks so. Herro, BoP and I all skate or did skate and we all agree that pre-rotation is correct and it makes sense from a physics standpoint

 

[ks777]

All's I know is that after a week of intensely studying Russian (& European) skaters' technique on this particular jump (i.e. the 3lutz), I've come to the conclusion that their superiority on this particular jump is both a combination of technique and natural innate ability to jump high. Case in point Irina Slutskaya, Julia Sebestyen, Oksana Baiul. Whereas some others are just average when it comes to jumping ability (aka Maria Butyrskaya), which gives me hope for the American ladies, they just need to be taught to do it correctly. None except someone like Agnes Zawadzki will earn +3 on it, but that's alright, as long as it's done correctly they won't lose any points at least, that's a beginning. Though I hope for more for skaters of the future...

Now back to the Japanese lady skaters, I find they're in the same situation as the American ladies (including flutzing), though a few of their skaters jump higher than the Americans, but not as high as the most gifted of the Russian/European ladies imho.

Midori Ito and Yoshie Onda jumped pretty high.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Except you'd be the only one who thinks so. Herro, BoP and I all skate or did skate and we all agree that pre-rotation is correct and it makes sense from a physics standpoint

It is indeed, a pampered sport. Lots of excuses for perfection, yet a handful of skater can manage perfection. Just not so in other judged sports.

 

[seniorita]

I see you you have changed your Yu-na Kim avatar and now have a picture of yourself.....

Thats indeed funny cause I saw prettykeys banned in another post and was thinking puzzled HOW is that possible!Then the avatar was not the usual and I thought it must be another user and I misspelled its name!

 

[Blades of Passion]

It is indeed, a pampered sport. Lots of excuses for perfection, yet a handful of skater can manage perfection. Just not so in other judged sports.

I'm not even sure what you're talking about.

Jumps have pre-rotation. That's simply how they work. The first Triple Loop ever by Dick Button turned 1/2 of a rotation on the ice before getting into the air. Most every skater throughout time has executed the jump like that as well. When skaters don't get the swing on the entry, the jump has a tendency to misfire.

 

[kate]

It is indeed, a pampered sport. Lots of excuses for perfection, yet a handful of skater can manage perfection. Just not so in other judged sports.

If "a handful of skaters can manage perfection" (presumably, 0 prerotation, in your opinion), who are these skaters? I've been involved in skating for a long time, and I have never seen someone do a double or triple jump without any prerotation.

 

[herro]

And Midori Ito...

I would add Yoshie Onda and Fumie Suguri (her jumps were pretty delicate, but she also got fantastic springs on her jumps).

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I'm not even sure what you're talking about.

Jumps have pre-rotation. That's simply how they work. The first Triple Loop ever by Dick Button turned 1/2 of a rotation on the ice before getting into the air. Most every skater throughout time has executed the jump like that as well. When skaters don't get the swing on the entry, the jump has a tendency to misfire.

I'm talking about the place you go airborne should be the place you land the jump or at least the acceptable allowance one gets before under rotations.

If you are happy with prerotations, so be it for you. I'm not. Maybe they should make a regulation that an Edge Jump can not prerotate more than 1/4 on the ice. A quarter grace on prerotation and a quarter grace on the landing give at least 2-1/2 rotations for a Triple.

 

[herro]

Very well put, Herro. I agree and that's my point, the take-off and landing should be where the blades are pointing just prior to where the takeoff occurs.

Thanks, but I think we're still thinking different things. In my opinion, the takeoff position is where the blade is pointing prior to the "pre-rotation." I think a jump can be said to have too much rotation on the ice prior to the actual takeoff only if the pre-rotation is obvious and beyond the amount necessary for the jump to work (like the swinging toe-axel).

Joesitz, I'm not saying this is the absolute standard for skating jumps. I respect your opinions, but this is just how I feel as a skater myself who has learned these jumps. The trouble is that there is no fat guidebook with guidelines for these extreme details (if there is one, please post a link or something here!). But then again, if there were guidelines on the proper amounts of pre-rotation for each jump, that would add so many more complexities to the sport. Imagine measuring pre-rotation on each jump. I know I would want to tear my hair out.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Thanks, but I think we're still thinking different things. In my opinion, the takeoff position is where the blade is pointing prior to the "pre-rotation." I think a jump can be said to have too much rotation on the ice prior to the actual takeoff only if the pre-rotation is obvious and beyond the amount necessary for the jump to work (like the swinging toe-axel).

Joesitz, I'm not saying this is the absolute standard for skating jumps. I respect your opinions, but this is just how I feel as a skater myself who has learned these jumps. The trouble is that there is no fat guidebook with guidelines for these extreme details (if there is one, please post a link or something here!). But then again, if there were guidelines on the amount of pre-rotation, that would add so many more complexities to the sport. Imagine measuring pre-rotation on each jump. I know I would want to tear my hair out.

Herros. I respect your non sarcastic retorts (one of a few. Thank you). I see your point on this, but I have to question the number of air turns a skater is credited for base values. With allowances for prerotations and underrotations, we have to admit FS is not a precision Sport. I used to skate before I was drafted into the Army a hundred years ago.

 

[Mathman]

I think it's just semantics. All jumps rotate on the ice as part of the set-up. In fact, all skating is "on the curve" if you are on an edge at all.

Instead of "pre-rotation" we should just agree to call it "rotation."

 

[herro]

Herros. I respect your non sarcastic retorts (one of a few. Thank you). I see your point on this, but I have to question the number of air turns a skater is credited for base values. With allowances for prerotations and underrotations, we have to admit FS is not a precision Sport. I used to skate before I was drafted into the Army a hundred years ago.

That's a really long time ago. No, but really I see where you're coming from. One would logically expect a triple salchow to have three full rotations in the air. But yea, as Mathman put it, the terms are part of the problem. Terms like "takeoff" and "pre-rotation" and so on just blur together and lead to different perceptions of jump mechanics. Skating is definitely "on the curve" - beautifully put, Mathman.

 

[gkelly]

I think there's a difference between
1) starting the rotation while part of the blade is still in contact with the ice but the jumping impetus has already occurred and the skater's weight is in the process of lifting off the ice
2) starting the rotation on the ice by tightening the radius of the curve from the large circle of the edge traveling on the ice to closer to the tight circle of the in-air rotation (edge jumps)
3) starting the rotation on the ice by starting to turn the blade off of the takeoff edge, as if the beginning of a three turn, during the process of initiating the upward motion
4) actually completing a three turn or 180-degree skid on the ice before initiating the upward motion, so that the blade is actually on the forward edge (for salchows, loops, or toe loops) or backward edge (for axels) before leaving the ice

1) and 2) are inevitable and part of the natural jump mechanics.

3) is common, especially for jumps with higher revolutions, and might not be ideal technique but isn't really an error either.

It's certainly not uncommon for double or triple loops at the end of combinations to take off with the blade facing a different direction than the previous jump landed. If it's sufficiently rotated in the air, then the blade will be traveling a different direction on the landing of the last jump than it was traveling on the landing of the first jump (i.e., the combination turns a corner), and it won't have much speed coming out. But still, the skater's weight is always over the back outside edge, never a wrong edge. No reason those combos shouldn't earn base mark if there's nothing else wrong with them, even +GOE if there was something special about the first jump.

4) is the only example that could actually be considered a wrong-edge takeoff and that should be penalized. The error would probably be called underrotation, though. Unless it's so blatantly on the wrong edge at the moment of takeoff that the TS just goes ahead and calls the jump it actually turned into (most likely axel turning into salchow or vice versa). That's really rare, though, especially at elite level.

With "toe axel" error on toe loops the problem is that the edge leaves the ice well before the toepick does, with the skater rotating on the ice away from the blade before taking off from the other toe.


By the way, here's an example of a blatant toe axel from a skater who didn't usually make that mistake:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLF71GgTI4k
(jump combo at about 1:35)

 

[Serious Business]

Fans make waaaaaaay too big a deal over flutzing. It's already very fairly penalized under the scoring system. The only quibble people should have is the inconsistency in tech calls over edge mistakes.

Flutzing is one fleeting imperfection among hundreds that any top skater will have. If those nanoseconds ruin a performance for you, you're not enjoying figure skating properly.

Some other fans, of course, make a big deal over flutzing because the rivals of their favorites happen to flutz. Here's a fact: flutzing doesn't keep someone from being a great athlete and talented jumper. Examples:

Timothy Goebbel, the man who landed a dozen quads in every program was a flutzer. Yet the numerical facts remain, he is one of the most talented jumpers the sport has ever seen. Even with a flutz, he would rack up more points in jumps under the COP than your favorites ever could, especially since he could land a quad after the halfway mark. Luckily for your faves, he sucked at everything else.

Of current skaters, Adelina Sotnikova and Kanako Murakami are both explosive and high jumpers. And yet they both flutz. Doesn't keep them from hitting the rafters on their flutz, though.

And Mao Asada, the flutzer who is responsible for a lot of the current flutz obsession, has landed more ratified triple axels than most female skaters have landed doubles.

OTOH, having a true 3lutz doesn't make one a great jumper. Alissa Czisny has that outside edge locked down on her 3lutz, but her jumps are neither huge nor consistent. She's never going to be known as a great jumper.

Also: it's doesn't seem to be technique or coaching or body type that makes skaters (especially chicks) capable of a 3lutz or not from what I can tell. The same coach will produce female skaters who flutz, and others who lutz but lip, and the rare few who lutz and flip. Same with a family of skaters (Emily vs. Sarah Hughes). Some skaters can fix their flutz (Joannie Rochette), but some can't (Mao Asada). But you can't tell me it's because Asada didn't work hard on it.

Maybe it boils down to luck or some kind of physical limitation. The same way triple axels are so rarely found among women skaters. The same way some skaters skate clockwise.

Sure, it's a defect and skaters are, as I already said, rightfully punished in the scores for it. But it's not a reason for fans to point at a flutzer and go "ABOMINATION!"