Flutzing | Page 8 | Golden Skate

Flutzing

Fans make waaaaaaay too big a deal over flutzing...

...Maybe it boils down to luck or some kind of physical limitation...

Sure, it's a defect and skaters are, as I already said, rightfully punished in the scores for it. But it's not a reason for fans to point at a flutzer and go "ABOMINATION!"

Fans should make a big deal over flutzing. If not an "abomination," at the very least it is offensive and especially to those who consistently do the jump properly, and to fans who appreciate skaters who consistently do same. Maybe it boils down to luck or some kind of physical limitation, but maybe it boils down to inability or or laziness or unwillingness to learn proper lutz technique--or fix a flawed technique. Down :disagree: with flutzes!

I agree with your point about calling should be consistent across skaters.
 
There are some skaters who work on it, apparently fix it in their practice skates but revert to some awful technique when they compete and try and rely on muscle memory.
 
Fans make waaaaaaay too big a deal over flutzing. It's already very fairly penalized under the scoring system. The only quibble people should have is the inconsistency in tech calls over edge mistakes.

Flutzing is one fleeting imperfection among hundreds that any top skater will have. If those nanoseconds ruin a performance for you, you're not enjoying figure skating properly
Flutzing is illegal. The ISU will not even mention it. Instead it is called a Wrong Edge Takeoff which is impossible since there is no name attached to the jump. The word attempt suddenly appears (I don't know if that is an official description or just a word for some fans of the Flutz). There is more to describing a Flutz beside a WET. It carries no counter rotation and it rotates and lands as if it were a FLIP.

Skaters, who have good Skating Ability do not have a WET problem. Skaters who have a problem executing a Lutz, should not do one. There should be no credit for an attempt.
 
Skaters, who have good Skating Ability do not have a WET problem. Skaters who have a problem executing a Lutz, should not do one. There should be no credit for an attempt.

Hmmm, then I guess Yuna Kim and Mao Asada do not have good "Skating Ability" as you call it as both have gotten "e" calls (one on Lutz and one on flip). That's pretty sad since they won the top two spots in 2010 at the 2 most major events. I guess that also means Murakami, Sotnikova, Ando, Gao, Nagasu, Takahashi, Joubert, Wagner, Lysacek, and Weir don't have good "Skating Ability" (whatever that is since it's not a PC score label) because all have gotten "e" or "!" calls.
 
Flutzing is illegal. The ISU will not even mention it. Instead it is called a Wrong Edge Takeoff which is impossible since there is no name attached to the jump. The word attempt suddenly appears (I don't know if that is an official description or just a word for some fans of the Flutz). There is more to describing a Flutz beside a WET. It carries no counter rotation and it rotates and lands as if it were a FLIP.
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Flutzing is illegal? Are there criminal sanctions? Consumer protection laws? Legal cause of action? Yes I am facetious but flutzing is certainly not illegal, not even if you look at the rules of figure skating. A blackflip is illegal in competition, flutzing is not. It is an error on a jump which is penalised.

Also you say a flutz rotates and lands as it were a flip. In reality all jumps rotate and land the same once you are in the air - they are all effectively backspins in the air, which is why backspins and jumps into backspins are so important for learning multi-revolution jumps.

Ant
 
Hmmm, then I guess Yuna Kim and Mao Asada do not have good "Skating Ability" as you call it as both have gotten "e" calls (one on Lutz and one on flip). That's pretty sad since they won the top two spots in 2010 at the 2 most major events. I guess that also means Murakami, Sotnikova, Ando, Gao, Nagasu, Takahashi, Joubert, Wagner, Lysacek, and Weir don't have good "Skating Ability" (whatever that is since it's not a PC score label) because all have gotten "e" or "!" calls.

Plushy kinda lips also:hb:

Ant do you read your mails? :sheesh:You re fired!:laugh:
 
Hmmm, then I guess Yuna Kim and Mao Asada do not have good "Skating Ability" as you call it as both have gotten "e" calls (one on Lutz and one on flip). That's pretty sad since they won the top two spots in 2010 at the 2 most major events. I guess that also means Murakami, Sotnikova, Ando, Gao, Nagasu, Takahashi, Joubert, Wagner, Lysacek, and Weir don't
have good "Skating Ability" (whatever that is since it's not a PC score label) because all have gotten "e" or "!" calls.
Good jumpers have great skating ability but some elements are not for them to do.

  • If the Take-Off is like a FLIP
  • and the Rotations are like a FLIP
  • and the Landings are like a FLIP,
  • Is it a Lutz?

There are plenty of points in the CoP. Why can't the Flutzers find other means for filling up their points for scoring?
 
Good jumpers have great skating ability

I'd disagree with you there in that Tim Goebel did not have any great "skating ability" nor did Elvis Stojko. What got both of them noticed was their incredible athleticism to rotate and land big jumps.
 
Flutzing is illegal. The ISU will not even mention it.

You mean the word "flutzing" is illegal in the sense that it's not used in official documents? That's because it's skater-slang, and the official documents are written more formally.

Instead it is called a Wrong Edge Takeoff which is impossible since there is no name attached to the jump.

There absolutely is a name attached to each jump. There are lutzes with wrong edge takeoffs, and there are flips with wrong edge takeoffs. The phrase "wrong edge takeoff" can apply to two different errors on two different jumps. (It just so happens that these particular errors blur the distinction between those two jumps.)

Every protocol names the jumps either Lz or F and then labels those jumps with an "e" if the tech panel sees an incorrect takeoff edge.

You'll never see only "e" or only "WET" on a protocol. The jump is always named.

There is more to describing a Flutz beside a WET. It carries no counter rotation and it rotates and lands as if it were a FLIP.

So what do you call it when there is counterrotation that is released 0.1-0.2 seconds before the blade leaves the ice as opposed to 0.1-0.2 seconds after leaving the ice? That's a lot more common scenario for "flutzes" than never showing any counterrotation at all.

In my experience, a flutz is more difficult than a flip because it starts with counterrotation, even though it doesn't maintain that counterrotation quite long enough to count as a completely correct lutz. It's a flawed lutz.

And all jumps land as if they were a flip -- or a loop, or an axel, or a lutz. The landings are the same regardless of the takeoff. They don't define the name of the jump.

Well, intentionally landing on the other foot, as in one-foot axel or half-loop, might affect the name of the jump. And unintentional jump errors might affect what people colloquially call an unsuccessful attempt. The basic name of the jump has nothing to do with the landing, so therefore landing errors have no effect on the official name of the jump.

The basic name of the jump has everything to do with the takeoff. Sometimes there are errors on takeoffs. If the errors are mild or moderate, the jump is still named according to what it was intended to be, and the errors are identified and penalized. Only when those errors are EXTREMELY SEVERE, to an extent almost never seen at the elite levels, would the basic name of the jump change.

"Flutz," "toe axel," and more recently "lip" are slang nicknames for specific kinds of errors on the lutz, toe loop, and flip takeoffs, respectively. They're not official names.
 
Don't forget the "Waxel" for the swinging Axel take off - slang for wacky Axel and the "Wow-cow" slang for the Salchow where the free leg is lead by the heel instead of the toe
 
No one who loves the WETs is convincing me that there is a legitimate name to that edge takeoff. I don't care what the Tech Panel is calling it, and what mark shows up in the protocols. It's not a Lutz (or a Lippy Flip).

They may change all that in the future when the definitions of elements become the rule of law. However, in the mean time, the WET lovers can enjoy their era of pampering figure skating. We don't want it to be a true sport which requies a good deal of practice. A skater can take off anyway he wants and it is still a Lutz :sheesh:
 
Also, you can WET on a flip as much as you can a Lutz. Yuna Kim was "e" called on her flip multiple times when it was the first 1/2 of her 3+3.

not multiple times. ^^;
Yuna has got the only one "e" call for her entire career. At 08COC SP.
(Back then Midori did :confused: for edge call, saying "In my eyes that is a flip, right." in a commentary.)
Besides the one "e" call, Yuna has got "!" calls in 3 competitions(all within 08-09 season).
 
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not multiple times. ^^;
Yuna has got the only one "e" call for her entire career. At 08COC SP.
(Back then Midori did :confused: for edge call, saying "In my eyes that is a flip, right." in a commentary.)
Besides the one "e" call, Yuna has got "!" calls in 3 competitions(all within 08-09 season).
The use of "e" calls is to avoid calling it a two Flip program. So for scoring the base value of an imaginery Lutz is used to make its deductions. :rofl:
 
The use of "e" calls is to avoid calling it a two Flip program. So for scoring the base value of an imaginery Lutz is used to make its deductions. :rofl:

Because a Lutz with an "e" is worth LESS POINTS than a clean flip because there are required deductions for the "e". Also, if you get a flip with an "e" it would be worth MORE POINTS if called as a Lutz than the intended jump. This shouldn't be right that the skater ends up with MORE points than the intended element.

It's not an "imaginary Lutz", it's a Lutz that the skater doesn't hold the counter-check position quite long enough for it to take off from the outside edge (usually under 1/2 second). It's not an "imaginary flip", either, it's a flip where the skater cross checks a little too hard on the reach back causing them to roll over to a slight outside edge. I can say from personal experience on the Lutz, it's hard to get the timing exactly right to Lutz all the time, especially when amped (liked in competition) and that I've seen skaters who NEVER flip the edge in practice release their upper body just early enough to get a call when competing.
 
The use of "e" calls is to avoid calling it a two Flip program. So for scoring the base value of an imaginery Lutz is used to make its deductions. :rofl:

Ah, that Midori part in my reply was about the edge call Yuna got, not general edge call itself.
Sorry for my poor English.

Anyway, I see your point. :)
 
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Because a Lutz with an "e" is worth LESS POINTS than a clean flip because there are required deductions for the "e". Also, if you get a flip with an "e" it would be worth MORE POINTS if called as a Lutz than the intended jump. This shouldn't be right that the skater ends up with MORE points than the intended element.

It's not an "imaginary Lutz", it's a Lutz that the skater doesn't hold the counter-check position quite long enough for it to take off from the outside edge (usually under 1/2 second). It's not an "imaginary flip", either, it's a flip where the skater cross checks a little too hard on the reach back causing them to roll over to a slight outside edge. I can say from personal experience on the Lutz, it's hard to get the timing exactly right to Lutz all the time, especially when amped (liked in competition) and that I've seen skaters who NEVER flip the edge in practice release their upper body just early enough to get a call when competing.

^^^^THIS! But apparently some people stick their fingers in their ears and sing-la-la-la let's ignore the flip with a wrong edge take off it's easier not to think about it if it ruins our argument la-la-la ;)

Ant
 
^^^^But apparently some people stick their fingers in their ears and sing-la-la-la let's ignore the flip with a wrong edge take off it's easier not to think about it if it ruins our argument la-la-la ;)

Ant

Hahahaha! Some people ONLY wish to discuss Lutzes with wrong edge take off versus all the other possible go-wrong take offs because it's their pet peeve. ;)
 
Maybe it would help to think about the intent and utility of definitions more generally.

If you want to know what a donkey is you could turn to the dictionary and maybe read something like this:

Defintition: A donkey is a stocky four-legged animal similar to a horse, typically used as a beast of burden and reputed to have a stubborn streak.

Two problems are immediate.

1. What if you see a three-legged donkey? It is still a donkey, even though it does not satisfy the definition (a “four-legged animal…”)

2. If someone really wants to know what a donkey is, this definition – or any – does not help much. You have to go to a farm and see one for yourself.

Similarly, we come to a definition of as Lutz jump by seeing lots of excellent skaters do them, starting with Alois Lutz in 1913. Then we abstract what we see to something like this.

Definition: A Lutz jump is a toe-pick assisted figure skating jump that takes off from an outside back edge, typically preceded by a long glide on that edge and with the rotation of the body in the air in the opposite direction to the curve of the blade on the ice, and landed after one or more rotations in the air on the outside back edge of the opposite foot.

A flutz is a three-legged donkey.
 
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