Free Dance

[La Rhumba]

Navarro/Bommentre earned their top 75 PB at Karl Schaefer last year. (They had the 38th best score from last season.) Every other couple who is competing in Seniors this year whose PB was above N/B got two invitations as well.

The explicit advantage that host nations get is in the discretionary invitations. Without them, only Wang/Meng at CoC and the "TBA" at NHK (replaced by Hajkova/Vincour) wouldn't have been issued invitations.

I've edited your post to quote, but thanks very much for explaining all the permutations of qualification for the GPs - it's very informative indeed, and less of a *cartel* than I'd previously thought.

 

[iloveaxel]

I totally agree with you. All the medals of B/A are due unfortunately more to a political strengths then to skating ones.But i doubt that many here will understand you.Most of them are americans, and it is clear why they do think B/A are good enough for a medal

I am not American and I do not claim to know anything about ice dance. But this is definitely a discipline that prone to maniuplation.

Russian ice mafia has done tremedous damage to the reputation of their skaters. To be honest with you, I just want any team whether they're American, French, or even Vietnamese to beat Russians even I don't care about ice dance at all.

I don't want any ISU sponsored competition to be held in Russia due to corruption and collusion concern. I want them to be held in U.S., Canada, European countries, Japan and China etc.

 

[La Rhumba]

My goodness! Reading this thread with everyone's genuinely held beliefs, and being a lifelong icedance fan, phew, I need a lie-down with a wet flannel across my face to recover!

hwell: :sheesh:

 

[La Rhumba]

I am not American and I do not claim to know anything about ice dance. But this is definitely a discipline that prone to maniuplation.

Russian ice mafia has done tremedous damage to the reputation of their skaters. To be honest with you, I just want any team whether they're American, French, or even Vietnamese to beat Russians even I don't care about ice dance at all.

I don't want any ISU sponsored competition to be held in Russia due to corruption and collusion concern. I want them to be held in U.S., Canada, European countries, Japan and China etc.

Now this is just completely ridiculous and way over the top! :disapp:

Clearly you're not a Dance Fan, if you were you'd appreciate the long history of Russian icedancing, classic couples like Klimova & Ponomarenko, who beat the Duchesnays on a close 5/4 split of the Judges at 92 Olys. That wasn't corruption - that was a justifiable decision that went against the French - bad luck, move on.

Crikey, we're in danger of declaring every result as a conspiracy theory, and it simply isn't the case. To suggest that no competitions be held in Russia is quite outrageous and absurd.

I AM an icedance Fan and follower of the sport since the 1980 Olympics when I saw T&D on TV and became a fan. I think the constant decrying of the discipline as corrupt can only lead to one thing - it will be removed from the Olympics. Is that what you want?

Probably yes, you do, as you've already stated, you don't care.
But I LOVE icedance and I don't want that to hapen - ever! :boohoo:

 

[iloveaxel]

Now this is just completely ridiculous and way over the top! :disapp:

Clearly you're not a Dance Fan, if you were you'd appreciate the long history of Russian icedancing, classic couples like Klimova & Ponomarenko, who beat the Duchesnays on a close 5/4 split of the Judges at 92 Olys. That wasn't corruption - that was a justifiable decision that went against the French - bad luck, move on.

Crikey, we're in danger of declaring every result as a conspiracy theory, and it simply isn't the case. To suggest that no competitions be held in Russia is quite outrageous and absurd.

I AM an icedance Fan and follower of the sport since the 1980 Olympics when I saw T&D on TV and became a fan. I think the constant decrying of the discipline as corrupt can only lead to one thing - it will be removed from the Olympics. Is that what you want?

Probably yes, you do, as you've already stated, you don't care.
But I LOVE icedance and I don't want that to hapen - ever! :boohoo:

The answer to you last question is YES. I long wanted ice dance to be removed from figure skating. I think it's been seriously considered before. Well, it's another way to remove Russian influence...:chorus:
It is good entertainment but not a real sport. This discipline does not have a lot of risky elements, so it's difficult to make mistake and prone to judges' manipulation.

 

[La Rhumba]

The answer to you last question is YES. I long wanted ice dance to be removed from figure skating. I think it's been seriously considered before. Well, it's another way to remove Russian influence...:chorus:
It is good entertainment but not a real sport. This discipline does not have a lot of risky elements, so it's difficult to make mistake and prone to judges' manipulation.

Obviously you didn't see the OD in Torino? Nooooo, not alot of mistakes there.

It's obvious you hate the sport and moreover hate Russia - it's a pity you feel the need to vent so much on a public forum, as it's upsetting to others who do actually care about the discipline, and frankly without Russia's involvement and the heritage of Russian Skaters, the entire sport would be a poorer place.

 

[1795]

wow what a debate i created or hlp create...
but even if im not a del/scho fan....i still reside with the "pushing of " the new #1 dancers theory alogn with "home ice"
well....its done....
unless the judges confirm a change...

 

[Ptichka]

Why? "What the "worst" partner did" is rather consistent rule in CoP. If in Pairs one partner doubles the jump the team is credited with double, no matter what the other partner did. If one partner did not complete neccessary rotations for the level 4 twizzles the team is only credited for whatever rotation he/she completed.

NOT because one partner made the error as opposed to both. At issue is that the footwork did not loose all of its difficulty because of the error. I can see the rationale of saying that the missed part of the footwork should downgrade the sequence from L4 to L3, but hardly all the way down to L1. Once again, no problem with this getting a -3 GoE.

 

[lanadd]

That is just so much bunk! The fact is that DomShabs fell in the OD---that is no "small mistake". And in the FD, DelShoes messed up their twizzles and didn't hold a lift long enough to get the higher level. B/A won the competition because they didn't make any mistakes. If they had, they would have been fighting to hold onto 3rd place!

Gorshkov is full of it. After the OD, I assumed DelShoes would win the competition because their FD is better than B/A's, but DelShoes was sacrificed for the benefit of the Russian team, not for B/A! DomShabs' OD mistake was far worse than DelShoes', but DelShoes took a MAJOR scoring hit just to make sure that DomShabs won the FD and the silver medal.

All this talk about an American mafia is a joke. Look at the composition of the judging panel:   HUN,   ITA,   POL,   AZE,   GBR,   UZB,   CAN,   FRA,   RUS,   USA. The fact is that the AZE and UZB judges are both Russian, so there are THREE Russian judges on the panel.

Furthermore, the Referee and Tech panels are all European as well: the referee is Bulgarian, the Tech Controller is Russian, and the tech specs Polish and Swiss.

With 11 out of 13 officials being European, where is this "American mafia"?

Methinks Mr. Gorshkov is doing a little projection of his own guilt.

Yes and i am pretty sure you're an american? Excuse me but AZE and UZB are countries different then from Russia if you don't know.
Yes there was a fall in the OD of Dom/S and their points are ok, but what about the tango of Del/S?I find it ways better technically then the tango of B/A, and plus the fact that Del/S are quite ahead of B/A in the quality of skating - and here comes my biggest suprise-How come is it possible that B/A are ahead of Del/S in the CD?THis is just ridiculous!!! And about the FD-Yes there was a little stumble in Del/S FD, but even with this small mistake their dance is soo much more better in each aspect from the FD of B/A
You see now where is the mafia.

 

[Anna]

NOT because one partner made the error as opposed to both. At issue is that the footwork did not loose all of its difficulty because of the error.

Which footwork? We are talking about SBS twizzles. In case of Del&Sch FD the rules were followed correctly: he messed up the twizzle in twizzle sequence, it was downgraded and received negative GOE. Just like jumps they are rather "short" hit or miss elements. If he did not complete the rotations the sequence is downgraded.

In fact it was Dom&Shab who were "mistreated" in this department. This year ISU finally separated SBS footwork in OD from SBS twizzles in this footwork, but some judges apparently forgot about it and gave the GEO -2 for the otherwise well done footwok, in addition to rightfully "hitting" them on GEO for the Tw, which is now a separate element.... In retrospect, given how close the results have been, it might have costed them a gold medal.

From what I remeber from the past, the messed up twizzle within the step sequence will indeed downgrade it to may be one level less.

 

[lanadd]

That is just so much bunk! The fact is that DomShabs fell in the OD---that is no "small mistake". And in the FD, DelShoes messed up their twizzles and didn't hold a lift long enough to get the higher level. B/A won the competition because they didn't make any mistakes. If they had, they would have been fighting to hold onto 3rd place!

Gorshkov is full of it. After the OD, I assumed DelShoes would win the competition because their FD is better than B/A's, but DelShoes was sacrificed for the benefit of the Russian team, not for B/A! DomShabs' OD mistake was far worse than DelShoes', but DelShoes took a MAJOR scoring hit just to make sure that DomShabs won the FD and the silver medal.

All this talk about an American mafia is a joke. Look at the composition of the judging panel:   HUN,   ITA,   POL,   AZE,   GBR,   UZB,   CAN,   FRA,   RUS,   USA. The fact is that the AZE and UZB judges are both Russian, so there are THREE Russian judges on the panel.

Furthermore, the Referee and Tech panels are all European as well: the referee is Bulgarian, the Tech Controller is Russian, and the tech specs Polish and Swiss.

With 11 out of 13 officials being European, where is this "American mafia"?

Methinks Mr. Gorshkov is doing a little projection of his own guilt.

Gorshkov:
"It's not my first year watching the ice dance. Of course, we can brag everywhere now that we defeated the Olympic silver medalists. However, I realize that despite the title, the Americans are the soap bubble. They were always the bubble. They are able team, they skate well, but they should've not been among the medal contenders at the Games. It was done artificially, first of all by the people who are on the technical commitee.

Andzej Dostatni is the most influencial person there. He's been living in America for many yeras and the annual exam results for technical specialists depend on him a lot. It's no accident that no Russian judge can pass this exam. Americans and Canadians pass it....

It's no secret that Dostatni consults the Americans even though officially he has not right to socilize with anyone. This is one of the reasons why Belbin and Agosot got level four for their footwork and lifts at the same time Navka and Kostomarov, Denkova/Stavijski, and Grushina/Goncharov - only level two. Kolia Morozov decided to outsmart everybody once. He made the same lift that Americans had for his Ukrainian team. He just copied it. So, at the Grand Prix the Americans got level four again, and Grushina/Goncharov - level two."

What about that chuckm? Dostatni is russian too, but looks like he is working for the us teams??? So don't try to convince me that B/A has so much class and polishness to compete with the top couples, and their medals are not in parts due to other factors....At the worlds i couldn't believe that they took the bronze instead of Dro/V- which are thousand times better then B/A in each aspect!!!

 

[Big Deal]

What Tovarisch Gorshkov said is simply the same what I sad about Russian-American maffia and their cooperation.
They can own the scene even if their judges are not in the panel, because they owns the power of "decision" to choose the judges and to let them pass the exams (or not)so on.
Of course Gorshkov forgot to talk about the same manner of the Russian "sport-diplomats"....
I wonder, why, especially if anybody can remember to his "skating-ability" which was rather ridiculous (I'm 49, have seen them in every competition on the TV those days). His wife, Ludmilla Pahomova was a FANTASTIC ice-dancer, for sure, no doubt about it!

 

[Natik]

This is Alexey Gorshkov (D/S coach) , not Alexander, who was Pahomova partner and husband

 

[Ravyn Rant]

With 11 out of 13 officials being European, where is this "American mafia"?

Word, Chuck. :yes:
I have just one question. If there's an American "mafia" in figure skating, why have the OVERWHELMINGLY VAST MAJORITY of medals in the sport been awarded to non-Americans?
Geez, you put a couple of Yankees on an ice dance podium and suddenly there's an "American mafia". Someone tell the mafia about Inoue and Baldwin, quick!
xoxo
Rave

 

[chuckm]

Yes and i am pretty sure you're an american? Excuse me but AZE and UZB are countries different then from Russia if you don't know.

I am quite well aware that AZE and UZB are different countries from Russia. Whether you know it or not, the judges for both are Russian! Russia has long had a practice of "loaning" judges to former SSRs because those countries never had trained judges of their own.

How comfortable would you feel if the US "loaned" judges to Mexico, Argentina and Puerto Rico? What if a panel of judges had a US judge, a Mexican judge and a Puerto Rican judge and you knew that they were all really US judges? I can assure you that you would be crying "Foul!"

Yes there was a fall in the OD of Dom/S and their points are ok, but what about the tango of Del/S?I find it ways better technically then the tango of B/A, and plus the fact that Del/S are quite ahead of B/A in the quality of skating - and here comes my biggest suprise-How come is it possible that B/A are ahead of Del/S in the CD?THis is just ridiculous!!! And about the FD-Yes there was a little stumble in Del/S FD, but even with this small mistake their dance is soo much more better in each aspect from the FD of B/A
You see now where is the mafia.

No, I don't see where is the 'mafia'. I see THREE Russian judges on the panel, and one US judge. From where I sit, if there was manipulation of the results, the US was in no position to influence any of the other judges, but the weight of 3 Russian judges was considerable.

As for B/A's placements, they have been placing ahead of DelShoes year after year since 2003. Maybe you think that DelShoes are better than B/A, but the judges haven't agreed with you over the years.

 

[lanadd]

As for B/A's placements, they have been placing ahead of DelShoes year after year since 2003. Maybe you think that DelShoes are better than B/A, but the judges haven't agreed with you over the years.

And how come DelShoes were better then B/A until 2003 and after that suddenly they are not?They became worse skaters, they stopped developping or they are just not so much helped as B/A IMO it is the tird and nobody could convince me, because i see the class of the 2 couple with my eyes!!!!

 

[lanadd]

I am quite well aware that AZE and UZB are different countries from Russia. Whether you know it or not, the judges for both are Russian! Russia has long had a practice of "loaning" judges to former SSRs because those countries never had trained judges of their own.

How comfortable would you feel if the US "loaned" judges to Mexico, Argentina and Puerto Rico? What if a panel of judges had a US judge, a Mexican judge and a Puerto Rican judge and you knew that they were all really US judges? I can assure you that you would be crying "Foul!"
QUOTE]

Very intresting way of thinking. So the bulgarian judge is also russian, although it is born in bulgaria, and it is actually bulgarian?? Because Bulgaria and Russia were extremely "close friends" some 50-60 years ago... That is funny
And what you're saying-you're just guessing, and Gorshkov has proves... which is quit different. And as one other member wrote the last few years there is Russian+American mafia if we have to be fair

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Our big question to all this is/was: How many Muslim judges do we have in Figure Skating?

As for Americans. They are not overly concerned with winning, and given the ethnic mix in the US, we could have Russian judges too.

Joe

 

[Tonichelle]

I do think so. Let's see what happens at NHK. Gregory/Petukhov scored 90.35 in their FD at Skate America. I would be surprised to see them score that high at NHK. I also don't expect Dubreuil/Lauzon to score the 98.81 they got at Skate Canada.

why not, I don't think that either team would have any trouble... it's not like they were the only ones with scores that high... you make it sound as though they didn't deserve their placements?

 

[La Rhumba]

I am quite well aware that AZE and UZB are different countries from Russia. Whether you know it or not, the judges for both are Russian! Russia has long had a practice of "loaning" judges to former SSRs because those countries never had trained judges of their own.

When you say they are Russian, are you 100% sure they are are born, live and work in Russia and have no connection with Aze and Uzb?

I ask because people who are of Russian origins do live and work, and have done for years, in the other [formerly Soviet] Nations. eg. I had blood taken from a Ukraninan Phlebotomist recently [working over here temporarily] who was the image of Plushy incidentally, but, as he explained, his Parents spoke fluent Russian and were ethnically Russian, but he considered himself a Ukrainian 100% with that passport.

Obviously during the Soviet era, the 2nd language taught in the former satellite states was Russian, so people involved in Sport could communicate easily, and don't forget that Rita Drobiazko is originally Russian, not Lithuanian.

It just seems to be when Judges have a connection, however tenuous, to Russia that it causes a stink. What about British Judge Garry Hoppe? He represented Israel for a few years as an International Dance Judge, now he's back officiating at UK competitions. I find that a bit strange myself.