Frustrated flat footer: help! | Golden Skate

Frustrated flat footer: help!

freezetheday

Spectator
Joined
Dec 28, 2023
Like many, I have flat feet with pronation ... Egyptian, narrow and low volume feet. I am 112 lbs, 5' and am working on the loop, all the spins, and edgework ... and see a PT to help with my interconnected fallen arches/glutes/hips.

Spins are the hardest for me ... the scratch spin is my arch nemesis since I have a terrible time getting over to the outside edge on a smaller circumference. Sit spin is ok, not as frustrating as scratch but I still struggle. I now tend to focus on fun moves like the hydroblade and shoot the duck since my pronation is not involved. lol. I have superfeet insoles and recently had my feet scanned and go the new bauer insoles for pronation. They cramp my feet and feel almost too thick for me.

I wear a Jackson premiere (not the new style) in a 6b with coronation ace blades. A fitter this past week wanted me to try the Jackson Synergy and even after heat molding, they felt like concrete. haha. (and had too much volume) This fitter in Charlotte did not like Risport, said they were old technology and had none to try on. He was biased, imo. lol

I like my skates now but they are breaking down. I tried Edea and of course did not like due to the ankle movement. Newer Jacksons debut and above had too much volume. I like the height of the Jackson/Edea heel, however.

Anyone have a fitter in the SOUTHEAST US (or TN) that works with funky feet? Not just a fitter who loves one brand and wants to make a sale, but a fitter who understands feet. I feel like I need a figue skating podiatrist!!

*** where are my flat footed friends? Please tell me your struggles and VICTORIES. :)
Thank you.
 
Hi and welcome! I'm not flat footed but with your feet needs I would look at Graf, Riedell, Risport.
You may need to go see a podiatrist and get orthotics for your boots. When I am a bit less busy, I would be able to make specific boot suggestions in the brands I mentioned for your needs. I wanted to get you a basic answer for now. I can also suggest a good fitter.

Good luck! :)
 
This isn't as related, but could the size 6 in Jackson be too big for you? I'm the same height, but my size in Jackson varies from 4-4.5. I know feet range in size despite height, so I'm really just curious. Too big of skates can hinder spins.

Also I have hyper-mobility, so my arches collapse if I don't intentionally engage my arches and I found Risport more supportive than Jackson.
 
Hi and welcome! I'm not flat footed but with your feet needs I would look at Graf, Riedell, Risport.
You may need to go see a podiatrist and get orthotics for your boots. When I am a bit less busy, I would be able to make specific boot suggestions in the brands I mentioned for your needs. I wanted to get you a basic answer for now. I can also suggest a good fitter.

Good luck! :)
Thanks so much! Really hoping to find a fitter that has wisdom to share and not just dollar signs in mind. lol
 
This isn't as related, but could the size 6 in Jackson be too big for you? I'm the same height, but my size in Jackson varies from 4-4.5. I know feet range in size despite height, so I'm really just curious. Too big of skates can hinder spins.

Also I have hyper-mobility, so my arches collapse if I don't intentionally engage my arches and I found Risport more supportive than Jackson.
Thanks so much for the reply. :) I wish they were too big. Everyone asks if they are too big since my feet look like long, thin boats for my size. haha But, my toes graze the front of the boot and when I had my feet scanned it suggested the same size that I am in. If I had arches, my feet would definitely be a size smaller but since the arches do not hold on their own, my feet get longer when in use with any sort of pressure.
 
You may need to go see a podiatrist and get orthotics for your boots.

I feel like I need a figue skating podiatrist!!

* I have flat feet due to fallen arches (with other foot and leg issues), pronate strongly, and appreciate what you are going through. Ideally you should see a podiatrist with experience in fitting prescription orthotics for figure skates. Unfortunately, they are hard to find. Perhaps someone on this forum can recommend one in your region of interest.

My podiatrist has done a great job at fitting orthotics for my walking and running shoes, but he has no experience with figure skates. And I couldn't find one with suitable experience in my area. Note that orthotics are configured to correct specific foot motions; hence, I have different pairs for walking and running. Figure skating is radically different: the foot does not flex from heel to toe, and the critical issue of inside/outside edge control doesn't arise at all in walking and running.

* When you have flat feet, it makes a big difference whether you have flat feet due to inherently low arches or whether you have flat feet because you originally had normal or high arches that have since fallen. Be careful if you look at stock (off-the-shelf) corrective insoles for flat feet. Often they are designed for inherently low arches.

* If you pronate strongly, you will likely need a 3-prong approach for correction:

(1) Orthotics or corrective insoles;
(2) Corrective positioning and alignment of the blades; and
(3) Corrective shimming of the blades.

As I discussed above, (1) ideally should be handled by a podiatrist experienced with orthotics for figure skates; but good luck in finding one. A fitter can only suggest stock corrective insoles such as Superfeet or Riedell R-Fit. These are hit or miss. A third option, which is what I finally chose to do, is to make your own corrective insoles; I won't go into details here.

(2) and (3) can be handled by a fitter/skate tech; but again ask around for recommendations. In particular, I've looked at skates of other skaters, and often the shimming was not done properly. I handle my own mounting and shimming.

* You have a chicken-and-egg scenario with figure skate boots and orthotics (to simplify things, I'll use the term "orthotics" to include corrective insoles). Ideally, they should be configured in unison. One option for that is custom Harlicks and orthotics; but expensive and long lead times. Otherwise, as with walking and running shoes, you pick the figure skating boots first; then have orthotics fitted into them. Ic3 is recommending brands and models of boots suitable for your feet, body, and skating level. Among her choices, here are factors specific to orthotics to look for. It's too bad Jacksons (which I wear) aren't on the list, because the latest intermediate/advanced Jackson models have many features that are great for accommodating orthotics. Look for:

(1) A boot that can be baked in an oven, rather than just spot heated. You can do an initial heat molding before you get an orthotic. After you get an orthotic, you can go back for a second heat molding. After the boots come out of the oven, you insert the orthotics while the boots are still hot, insert your feet, lace up, and let the heat molding progress. Note: Don't insert the orthotics into the boots before you place the boots in the oven.

(2) A boot that has enough volume to accommodate an orthotic. Especially if you need an orthotic to raise your fallen arches back to normal, you'll need room.

(3) A boot with a wide wrap or cuff; that is, a large overlap between the throat of the boot and the edges of the tongue. This allows you to adjust the fit over the instep region by adjusting the lacing pattern. Again, especially if you need an orthotic to raise your fallen arches back to normal, you'll need this adjustment.

(4) A boot with a deep heel pocket. You'll likely need room for a heel wedge or heel post.

* Good Luck!
 
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* I have flat feet due to fallen arches (with other foot and leg issues), pronate strongly, and appreciate what you are going through. Ideally you should see a podiatrist with experience in fitting prescription orthotics for figure skates. Unfortunately, they are hard to find. Perhaps someone on this forum can recommend one in your region of interest.

My podiatrist has done a great job at fitting orthotics for my walking and running shoes, but he has no experience with figure skates. And I couldn't find one with suitable experience in my area. Note that orthotics are configured to correct specific foot motions; hence, I have different pairs for walking and running. Figure skating is radically different: the foot does not flex from heel to toe, and the critical issue of inside/outside edge control doesn't arise at all in walking and running.

* When you have flat feet, it makes a big difference whether you have flat feet due to inherently low arches or whether you have flat feet because you originally had normal or high arches that have since fallen. Be careful if you look at stock (off-the-shelf) corrective insoles for flat feet. Often they are designed for inherently low arches.

* If you pronate strongly, you will likely need a 3-prong approach for correction:

(1) Orthotics or corrective insoles;
(2) Corrective positioning and alignment of the blades; and
(3) Corrective shimming of the blades.

As I discussed above, (1) ideally should be handled by a podiatrist experienced with orthotics for figure skates; but good luck in finding one. A fitter can only suggest stock corrective insoles such as Superfeet or Riedell R-Fit. These are hit or miss. A third option, which is what I finally chose to do, is to make your own corrective insoles; I won't go into details here.

(2) and (3) can be handled by a fitter/skate tech; but again ask around for recommendations. In particular, I've looked at skates of other skaters, and often the shimming was not done properly. I handle my own mounting and shimming.

* You have a chicken-and-egg scenario with figure skate boots and orthotics (to simplify things, I'll use the term "orthotics" to include corrective insoles). Ideally, they should be configured in unison. One option for that is custom Harlicks and orthotics; but expensive and long lead times. Otherwise, as with walking and running shoes, you pick the figure skating boots first; then have orthotics fitted into them. Ic3 is recommending brands and models of boots suitable for your feet, body, and skating level. Among her choices, here are factors specific to orthotics to look for. It's too bad Jacksons (which I wear) aren't on the list, because the latest intermediate/advanced Jackson models have many features that are great for accommodating orthotics. Look for:

(1) A boot that can be baked in an oven, rather than just spot heated. You can do an initial heat molding before you get an orthotic. After you get an orthotic, you can go back for a second heat molding. After the boots come out of the oven, you insert the orthotics while the boots are still hot, insert your feet, lace up, and let the heat molding progress. Note: Don't insert the orthotics into the boots before you place the boots in the oven.

(2) A boot that has enough volume to accommodate an orthotic. Especially if you need an orthotic to raise your fallen arches back to normal, you'll need room.

(3) A boot with a wide wrap or cuff; that is, a large overlap between the throat of the boot and the edges of the tongue. This allows you to adjust the fit over the instep region by adjusting the lacing pattern. Again, especially if you need an orthotic to raise your fallen arches back to normal, you'll need this adjustment.

(4) A boot with a deep heel pocket. You'll likely need room for a heel wedge or heel post.

* Good Luck!
oh, thank you so so much! This is such valuable info. I will definitely look for a figure skating podiatrist. Such a special niche! :) I appreciate the time you took to help me ... big hugs! Thank you!!
 
If tstop4me's advice doesn't work for you:

You presumably fall towards the inside because the structures inside your body don't apply equal pressure and/or tension to both sides of your feet. That's just basic physics. (Except: much less experienced skaters than you are sometimes afraid to go onto an outside edge, because they are afraid of falling. It's easier to stop a fall towards the inside where they can put down the other foot to stop what would otherwise be a fall, than it is to the outside, where you need to use more complicated ways to restore balance. But I assume that's not true for someone as experienced as you.) Various medical sources say it might have something to do with the length or structure or physical properties of the muscles and ligaments and other connective tissue inside your body.

Those internal structures must apply more pressure to the outside edge of your feet than the inside edge- at least when you put your full weight on a foot. I.E., if you don't put much weight on a foot maybe you do get roughly equal pressure to both sides of your feet, but under full body weight, they might collapse unequally.

I believe I don't have flat feet (yet - a lot of people develop it eventually, as their muscles and ligaments and other connective tissue gets older). But if I did, I might try to overcompensate a bit, and setup the insoles of my boots in such a way that tends to push me onto the outside edge just a little bit. E.g., put some strips of tape underneath the insole on the side of the boot you tend to fall towards - in this case the inside.

Essentially you would be compensating for an unequal pressures and/or tensions inside your body with an unequal pressure outside your body.

I don't have the exact same problem. My problem is that the bottoms of my feet are tilted slightly right to left, I think because one leg is maybe 1/2 inch shorter than the other. It's not enough to notice, walking, though I suppose it is possible a very skilled podiatrist or performance dance teacher would have been able to see it. (The podiatrist I went to, the one my insurance company was willing to pay for, couldn't see it. But she wasn't one of the two podiatrists in a multistate area around me that a lot of skaters and dancers love.) But balancing on an ice skating blade, it becomes quite noticeable. In addition someone misfit me for skate boots, in part because they had me stand on impressible foam while on both feet, instead of balancing on one foot. They are full custom boots, but the boot maker based their efforts on those foam impressions. It was literally the case that gliding on one foot, in my boots, the right side of my feet weren't in contact at all with the bottom of the boot, rather than the equal pressure they should have had. It took me a lot of time, as well as conversations with other skaters and skate techs, and reading material that podiatrists have written, to even realize that was the source of the problem. I had to become consciously aware of the sensations of pressure on my skin at different parts of my feet. Something I hadn't thought to do before.

I like cloth athletic tape, sometimes called cloth first aid tape - a good quality brand is Johnson & Johnson, and it really does make a difference. Some of the other brands, and almost certainly dollar store tape, and even more so duct tape, have unstable adhesive, which tends to gradually work its way out from under the tape. So other brands might work for a few days, but not much longer. Eventually I got into instead cutting my self a custom insole out of foam, which is a bit more stable, though foams eventually collapse. I use cheap foam, from a camping mattress pad, which has the advantage of being skin safe. But in theory other foams, like a good urethane foam, would last longer. If I recall tstop4me once mentioned trying other foams, and covering them with a skin safe layer.

I got the foam idea from a skater I corresponded with who had extreme problems with pronation. She was cutting carpet foam. But she had to do something else, which sounds a bit extreme. When her feet collapsed on the inside edge, that meant her feet would spread out on the inside edge. (Actually, pretty much everyone's feet expand outwards a little when the collapse to absorb weight. But hers tended to expand much more on the inside than the outside.) So on the side of the boot next to that inside edge she added adhesive padding (something like "moleskin" - though once again maybe one should avoid the dollar store cheap stuff, though it might be good enough for a short term experiment) so the feet could not collapse, because there was no space to expand into. As far as I've tried to find out, that is a very unusual thing to do, which most podiatrists don't usually do. So maybe it is NOT the best possible idea. But, combined with the cut foam insoles, it worked for her.

A real expert might be able to find a foam with the exact right properties to compensate for the unequal collapse that occurs under different amounts of weight, and make it so you would create equal pressure under both sides of your feet, at all stages of putting weight under your feet. I don't know how you would do that, other than experimenting with foams with different degrees of stiffness. If you deal with doctors much, you may eventually find they often to take an empirical approach too: If one solution doesn't work, they try another.

Other people have used cork insoles (like some alpine ski stores sell or install in boots for similar problems). They heat the cork, put their feet in the boot, perhaps under full weight, and it molds into the shape that creates close to equal pressure everywhere on the bottom of the feet. I haven't tried that.

I tried a heat moldable insole made by SuperFeet specifically for skate boots, probably roughly along the lines of the heat moldable orthotic that tstop4me mentions. But it was too stiff for my boots. It eventually pushed the sides of my boots outwards, and made them too big near the footbed, so I needed to snug that up and stopped using it. And it rocked side to side inside the boot, as I changed edges, especially once it had stretched out the boots, so I had to compensate for that. Eventually I gave up on stiff molded insoles, and moved to foam. But my boots were "soft dance" skate boots, and maybe that wouldn't apply to good quality stiff freestyle boots? Or at least not before the boots broke down in other ways?

But some podiatrists use similar orthotics in normal shoes. (AFAICT, an orthotic] is just an insole prescribed or created by a certified doctor or orthotist. If you can't find a podiatrist that the skating community loves. Maye It's worth posting in forums like this to try to find one to try to find one close enough for you to drive to in a day or so. That sounds crazy, and traveling that far and staying overnight a day or two at a hotel is expensive. But if you think of all the money you have spent on coaching and ice time trying to compensate for your issue (work it out - it might well be thousands or tens of thousands of dollars), and the personal frustration and abandonment of dreams it has perhaps caused, maybe it's worth it?)

Eventually figuring out how to efficiently compensate for my issues became a fun activity in itself. If you have an analytic bent, you could see it the same way, and be pleased with your ability to do so.
 
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If tstop4me's advice doesn't work for you:

You presumably fall towards the inside because the structures inside your body don't apply equal pressure and/or tension to both sides of your feet. That's just basic physics. (Except: much less experienced skaters than you are sometimes afraid to go onto an outside edge, because they are afraid of falling. It's easier to stop a fall towards the inside where they can put down the other foot to stop what would otherwise be a fall, than it is to the outside, where you need to use more complicated ways to restore balance. But I assume that's not true for someone as experienced as you.) Various medical sources say it might have something to do with the length or structure or physical properties of the muscles and ligaments and other connective tissue inside your body.

Those internal structures must apply more pressure to the outside edge of your feet than the inside edge- at least when you put your full weight on a foot. I.E., if you don't put much weight on a foot maybe you do get roughly equal pressure to both sides of your feet, but under full body weight, they might collapse unequally.

I believe I don't have flat feet (yet - a lot of people develop it eventually, as their muscles and ligaments and other connective tissue gets older). But if I did, I might try to overcompensate a bit, and setup the insoles of my boots in such a way that tends to push me onto the outside edge just a little bit. E.g., put some strips of tape underneath the insole on the side of the boot you tend to fall towards - in this case the inside.

Essentially you would be compensating for an unequal pressures and/or tensions inside your body with an unequal pressure outside your body.

I don't have the exact same problem. My problem is that the bottoms of my feet are tilted slightly right to left, I think because one leg is maybe 1/2 inch shorter than the other. It's not enough to notice, walking, though I suppose it is possible a very skilled podiatrist or performance dance teacher would have been able to see it. (The podiatrist I went to, the one my insurance company was willing to pay for, couldn't see it. But she wasn't one of the two podiatrists in a multistate area around me that a lot of skaters and dancers love.) But balancing on an ice skating blade, it becomes quite noticeable. In addition someone misfit me for skate boots, in part because they had me stand on impressible foam while on both feet, instead of balancing on one foot. They are full custom boots, but the boot maker based their efforts on those foam impressions. It was literally the case that gliding on one foot, in my boots, the right side of my feet weren't in contact at all with the bottom of the boot, rather than the equal pressure they should have had. It took me a lot of time, as well as conversations with other skaters and skate techs, and reading material that podiatrists have written, to even realize that was the source of the problem. I had to become consciously aware of the sensations of pressure on my skin at different parts of my feet. Something I hadn't thought to do before.

I like cloth athletic tape, sometimes called cloth first aid tape - a good quality brand is Johnson & Johnson, and it really does make a difference. Some of the other brands, and almost certainly dollar store tape, and even more so duct tape, have unstable adhesive, which tends to gradually work its way out from under the tape. So other brands might work for a few days, but not much longer. Eventually I got into instead cutting my self a custom insole out of foam, which is a bit more stable, though foams eventually collapse. I use cheap foam, from a camping mattress pad, which has the advantage of being skin safe. But in theory other foams, like a good urethane foam, would last longer. If I recall tstop4me once mentioned trying other foams, and covering them with a skin safe layer.

I got the foam idea from a skater I corresponded with who had extreme problems with pronation. She was cutting carpet foam. But she had to do something else, which sounds a bit extreme. When her feet collapsed on the inside edge, that meant her feet would spread out on the inside edge. (Actually, pretty much everyone's feet expand outwards a little when the collapse to absorb weight. But hers tended to expand much more on the inside than the outside.) So on the side of the boot next to that inside edge she added adhesive padding (something like "moleskin" - though once again maybe one should avoid the dollar store cheap stuff, though it might be good enough for a short term experiment) so the feet could not collapse, because there was no space to expand into. As far as I've tried to find out, that is a very unusual thing to do, which most podiatrists don't usually do. So maybe it is NOT the best possible idea. But, combined with the cut foam insoles, it worked for her.

A real expert might be able to find a foam with the exact right properties to compensate for the unequal collapse that occurs under different amounts of weight, and make it so you would create equal pressure under both sides of your feet, at all stages of putting weight under your feet. I don't know how you would do that, other than experimenting with foams with different degrees of stiffness. If you deal with doctors much, you may eventually find they often to take an empirical approach too: If one solution doesn't work, they try another.

Other people have used cork insoles (like some alpine ski stores sell or install in boots for similar problems). They heat the cork, put their feet in the boot, perhaps under full weight, and it molds into the shape that creates close to equal pressure everywhere on the bottom of the feet. I haven't tried that.

I tried a heat moldable insole made by SuperFeet specifically for skate boots, probably roughly along the lines of the heat moldable orthotic that tstop4me mentions. But it was too stiff for my boots. It eventually pushed the sides of my boots outwards, and made them too big near the footbed, so I needed to snug that up and stopped using it. And it rocked side to side inside the boot, as I changed edges, especially once it had stretched out the boots, so I had to compensate for that. Eventually I gave up on stiff molded insoles, and moved to foam. But my boots were "soft dance" skate boots, and maybe that wouldn't apply to good quality stiff freestyle boots? Or at least not before the boots broke down in other ways?

But some podiatrists use similar orthotics in normal shoes. (AFAICT, an orthotic] is just an insole prescribed or created by a certified doctor or orthotist. If you can't find a podiatrist that the skating community loves. Maye It's worth posting in forums like this to try to find one to try to find one close enough for you to drive to in a day or so. That sounds crazy, and traveling that far and staying overnight a day or two at a hotel is expensive. But if you think of all the money you have spent on coaching and ice time trying to compensate for your issue (work it out - it might well be thousands or tens of thousands of dollars), and the personal frustration and abandonment of dreams it has perhaps caused, maybe it's worth it?)

Eventually figuring out how to efficiently compensate for my issues became a fun activity in itself. If you have an analytic bent, you could see it the same way, and be pleased with your ability to do so.
Oh this is so fascinating!! thank you! Y'all are THE BEST!!

This is not a topic of conversation for the masses which makes this forum so valuable. I appreciate your response and can't wait to share it with my coach and anyone else who may be partially interested. lol. I have a collection of a dozen skates and insoles at home, experimenting with what works with my feet and it does become quite an interesting journey! I love that you have enjoyed figuring it out and I thank you for sharing your knowledege. We are definitely a niche group! :)

I would definitely be willing to travel to see a well respected figure skating podiatrist! if you hear of anyone, I am all ears.

thanks again!
 
There is a problem with my economic argument - that you are spending money on coaches and ice time (and travel) that you could save on if you can get your equipment to help you better.

That assumes you would use less coach and ice time. But if you are more successful in doing what you want, you may love skating more, and spend more time and money with your coach and ice rinks and travels and competitions or shows.
 
I struggled with fallen arches for almost a year, but recently, after a recommendation from a family friend, I went to a clinic in Dallas that specifically deals with this kind of issue. They gave me a full evaluation and came up with a personalized plan, and I started seeing results pretty quickly—after just a week, actually. Things aren’t completely fixed yet, but it’s the first time I feel like I’m on the right track. If you live in Texas and want to check it out, here’s the link: https://dallasfootanklesurgeon.com/foot-surgeon/flat-feet-surgeon/
 
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