Gabriella Papadakis & Guillaume Cizeron

[brushalley]

I think P/C W/P and C/B will be top three but the order with one and two could be either.I do think that C/B could be overtaken for third by C/L who are on great form this season.I feel S/S will be US number two and will finish fifth place.
I hope P/C win but we'll wait to see if they've added more difficulty .Do they actually need more difficulty ? or do they just make everything look so effortless?

 

[robredo40]

I think they need more difficulty this year, because W&P have a better and more difficult program than last year.

 

[Astrid56]

C&B will be lucky to be on the podium this year, the title is between W&P and P&C, with W&P having the edge.

W/P got lucky last year with their FD but this year. it remains to be seen if they will be medal-worthy. The fight will be between W/P and C/B.

 

[robredo40]

I think you meant P&C Astrid.

 

[cocotaffy]

I think P/C W/P and C/B will be top three but the order with one and two could be either.I do think that C/B could be overtaken for third by C/L who are on great form this season.I feel S/S will be US number two and will finish fifth place.
I hope P/C win but we'll wait to see if they've added more difficulty .Do they actually need more difficulty ? or do they just make everything look so effortless?

I'm wondering the same thing myself, probably because i'm not an expert at all. To me, i keep going back between W/P's and P/C's programs and I have a feeling that P/C just make things look effortless even if they do need to polish it. Could someone break down W/P's program to show what makes it so superior compare to their vivaldi's ? Also, what do you think about those two teams SD ?

 

[Astrid56]

I think you meant P&C Astrid.

Nope! Definitely C/B. You must remember that Evan and Madison were once World Junior champions with their former partners. P/C never had that distinction _ they were ranked 13th when they won the World championship. C/B also won the SD. P/C got really lucky with their FD that year. C/B's rise also was remarkable because they were/are still essentially a new team having gotten together only in mid 2011.

 

[slider11]

I love Papadakis and Cizeron but what I saw at the French Nationals is not overwhelming me. I know it's early because of Gabriella's injuries but it will be interesting to see how the Euro judges mark them compared to the Russians, maybe even Coomes and Buckland. Don't get me wrong - I don't see them as "one hit wonders" but I'm not sure if that FD has the content to retain gold. But I like their calm, not over-confident demeanor. They have a wonderful career ahead and they are smart to play it smart and cool.

 

[daphenaxa]

here are the score sheets from GPF and French Nationals so you can compare Gaby/Guillaume, C/B and W/P's programs.
SD: France - GPF
FD: France GPF

Even if we ignore the GOEs that might be inflated, it gives an idea of the elements and of the levels they get. Verdict: they are all pretty even. Gaby and Guillaume will also get strong GOEs in international events, given they are world champs but also given their elements are extremely well done and refined, so they deserve them.
About errors, Gabriella and Guillaume lost 2 levels on the twizzles in the FD (which we will see if it is a one time error or a more important problem with next competitions) and they had a problem on the pattern in the SD with a "N" at a keypoint (same as twizzles). But C/B also had problems with their twizzles at GPF and even W/P struggled on them (which was not reflected at all in the notation btw). I also think C/B had problems with their patterns throughout the GP series? I am not sure anymore.
As general impression, I think Gaby and Guillaume skated too far appart at the French nationals and they will have to get closer when on hold in the footwork. I also feel in the SP, the transition from waltz to march with the same music but added march rhythm is a bit awkward. But their skating skills are the best imho. They have effortless glide and speed, good edgework and very pretty positionning and extensions. As for interpretation/ execution, I personally feel that their connection with each other and their musicality is the best as well among the top teams. They also have an intangible it factor that make them so sexy and magnetic to look at.
Conclusion, I don't think Gaby and Guillaume are out of contention at all for world podium and even a second title. We will see. But I disagree it is a given for W/P and heaven forbid C/B that they are gonna win.

 

[Astrid56]

here are the score sheets from GPF and French Nationals so you can compare Gaby/Guillaume, C/B and W/P's programs.
SD: France - GPF
FD: France GPF

Even if we ignore the GOEs that might be inflated, it gives an idea of the elements and of the levels they get. Verdict: they are all pretty even. Gaby and Guillaume will also get strong GOEs in international events, given they are world champs but also given their elements are extremely well done and refined, so they deserve them.
About errors, Gabriella and Guillaume lost 2 levels on the twizzles in the FD (which we will see if it is a one time error or a more important problem with next competitions) and they had a problem on the pattern in the SD with a "N" at a keypoint (same as twizzles). But C/B also had problems with their twizzles at GPF and even W/P struggled on them (which was not reflected at all in the notation btw). I also think C/B had problems with their patterns throughout the GP series? I am not sure anymore.
As general impression, I think Gaby and Guillaume skated too far appart at the French nationals and they will have to get closer when on hold in the footwork. I also feel in the SP, the transition from waltz to march with the same music but added march rhythm is a bit awkward. But their skating skills are the best imho. They have effortless glide and speed, good edgework and very pretty positionning and extensions. As for interpretation/ execution, I personally feel that their connection with each other and their musicality is the best as well among the top teams. They also have an intangible it factor that make them so sexy and magnetic to look at.
Conclusion, I don't think Gaby and Guillaume are out of contention at all for world podium and even a second title. We will see. But I disagree it is a given for W/P and heaven forbid C/B that they are gonna win.

French National and GPF are NOT comparable, competition-wise. If they don't polish their SD and FD, they'll (P/C) definitely be out of contention at the World Championship.

 

[daphenaxa]

French National and GPF are NOT comparable, competition-wise. If they don't polish their SD and FD, they'll (P/C) definitely be out of contention at the World Championship.

well it is the only competition they have entered this season so everyone in this thread giving their opinion on P/C and how they compare to their competitors use their skate at French Nat. to do so.
If they really are not comparable, why is everyone writing them off using said performance at the French nationals? Or is it only allowed to write them off but not to disagree with that trend?

 

[lauravvv]

Nope! Definitely C/B.

P/C got really lucky with their FD that year.

You said exactly this (the last quote) in the sentence which robredo40 corrected for you, only you named W/P instead of P/C. That's why robredo40 corrected it to P/C.

Note, I am just trying to clarify the small misunderstanding, not expressing any opinion on this.

On the other hand, I will say my opinion - I do agree that P/C's wonderful FD was a significant part of their wins last season, but I certainly can't agree that they are not strong enough as skaters to contend with W/P or C/B also with other programs. They are very talented, natural skaters, especially Guillaume. They may not have the obvious difficulty of W/P (both in transitions and elements) or C/B (mostly in elements), but they have that effortlesness, that ease (not easiness) which those teams don't have - at least not to that extent. Also, another reason for their huge leap last season was that the season before they were a just out of juniors team and only the French number three team in addition to that, so they were quite underscored then, but when next season they became the French number one team judges were "free" to score them much higher.

That said, I remember that P/C had problems getting the highest levels in the SD last season. But, as others have said, levels have not been perfect for C/B and even W/P this season either. And one SD is different from another.

 

[humbaba]

well it is the only competition they have entered this season so everyone in this thread giving their opinion on P/C and how they compare to their competitors use their skate at French Nat. to do so.
If they really are not comparable, why is everyone writing them off using said performance at the French nationals? Or is it only allowed to write them off but not to disagree with that trend?

I would distinguish between comparing performances and comparing scores. It really is dicey to compare scores between competitions, period. Comparing scores from a national event to those from an international one is especially unreliable. P/C skated two nice, pretty programs at French nationals. I enjoyed them very much. But I'm not sure how they will hold up in competition with the other top teams. P/C hasn't been truly tested yet this season. I'm very anxious to see how they do at the European Championships.

 

[daphenaxa]

I would distinguish between comparing performances and comparing scores. It really is dicey to compare scores between competitions, period. Comparing scores from a national event to those from an international one is especially unreliable. P/C skated two nice, pretty programs at French nationals. I enjoyed them very much. But I'm not sure how they will hold up in competition with the other top teams. P/C hasn't really been tested yet this season. I'm very anxious to see how they do at the European Championships.

yeah that is why I didn't talk about scores but about their elements and the levels they got for them. These are reliable information.

 

[Astrid56]

well it is the only competition they have entered this season so everyone in this thread giving their opinion on P/C and how they compare to their competitors use their skate at French Nat. to do so.
If they really are not comparable, why is everyone writing them off using said performance at the French nationals? Or is it only allowed to write them off but not to disagree with that trend?

You mentioned that's the only competition they competed in this season. And, I presume they'll use these very programs in this season's competition. Do you know of another P/C program that will be used in this year's World's or Europe's skating contests?

 

[lauravvv]

yeah that is why I didn't talk about scores but about their elements and the levels they got for them. These are reliable information.

Perhaps not so reliable when you consider that technical panels at nationals are also for the most part from the respective/home countries (France, in this case), and they might be more lenient with their top skaters than international technical panels.

 

[Astrid56]

You said exactly this (the last quote) in the sentence which robredo40 corrected for you, only you named W/P instead of P/C. That's why robredo40 corrected it to P/C.

Note, I am just trying to clarify the small misunderstanding, not expressing any opinion on this.

On the other hand, I will say my opinion - I do agree that P/C's wonderful FD was a significant part of their wins last season, but I certainly can't agree that they are not strong enough as skaters to contend with W/P or C/B also with other programs. They are very talented, natural skaters, especially Guillaume. They may not have the obvious difficulty of W/P (both in transitions and elements) or C/B (mostly in elements), but they have that effortlesness, that ease (not easiness) which those teams don't have - at least not to that extent. Also, another reason for their huge leap last season was that the season before they were a just out of juniors team and only the French number three team in addition to that, so they were quite underscored then, but when next season they became the French number one team judges were "free" to score them much higher.

That said, I remember that P/C had problems getting the highest levels in the SD last season. But, as others have said, levels have not been perfect for C/B and even W/P this season either. And one SD is different from another.

robredo40 does not need to correct me who I feel are truly competitive this season: it's a personal opinion that I have a right to express. I am also of the opinion that P/C are great skaters ... like C/B!!! But looking at P/C's programs as performed in the French Nat'l, I doubt they'll medal in world's. C/L, the Shibs, C/B, and W/P ... all have technically and artistically demanding programs.

 

[lauravvv]

robredo40 does not need to correct me who I feel are truly competitive this season: it's a personal opinion that I have a right to express.

You still misunderstand. robredo40 didn't correct what you feel. She/he just saw that you had obviously meant P/C, no W/P in that sentence. Go back and reread your own post. You said "W/P got lucky with their FD last year". Did you really mean W/P? I doubt that, as you later wrote "P/C got really lucky with their FD that year".

You mentioned that's the only competition they competed in this season. And, I presume they'll use these very programs in this season's competition. Do you know of another P/C program that will be used in this year's World's or Europe's skating contests?

I am also of the opinion that P/C are great skaters ... like C/B!!! But looking at P/C's programs as performed in the French Nat'l, I doubt they'll medal in world's. C/L, the Shibs, C/B, and W/P ... all have technically and artistically demanding programs.

First, daphenaxa is wrong in saying that everyone is writing P/C off. I see a lot of people who like their new programs (I like them too, especially the SD), who thought that their performances at the French nationals were fine and that they will be further improved at Europeans and Worlds. Quite many are even saying (here and on other threads and forums) that they are still the favorites (or at least one of the favorites) to win Worlds.

I personally think that, while W/P and C/B have more obvious technical difficulty in their programs, the "easiness" of P/C's programs is deceptive. Also, I don't see how their last season's FD was more technically demanding, but they won with it. Actually, someone (I don't remember who) called their last season's SD lift more difficult than their new lifts, but they had been doing that lift already for several seasons, so, for them, it was not that difficult at all. But the lifts they are using this season are completely new for them, as far as I remember. I know it doesn't matter to judges if the lifts are new or not. What they judge is first and foremost the execution of those lifts (and other elements). Of course, if a team does a difficult, acrobatic lift and executes it really well, they are very likely to get higher GOE for it than the team who does an easier lift. Yet, as evidence shows, it is possible to get really high GOE also for an (at least seemingly) easier lift if it is executed very well. P/C's own example shows that. As does C/L's example in many cases. Acrobatic looking lifts have never been their forte (except for that one FD lift this season, of course), but they have often gotten high GOE for their easier lifts. As for levels, lifts/other elements don't need to be very difficult to get level 4. Many of the easier lifts/elements fill the requirements for level 4 just fine.

In any case, not everyone is of the same opinion about P/C's programs as you, so what you think doesn't matter much. There are people who were not that impressed with their FD last season either. Only what judges think will matter.

And it seems what daphenaxia is trying to say is that P/C's performances of their programs will very likely be improved until Europeans and Worlds, so they can't be written off just based on their Nationals performances even if some people think those performances were not competitive enough. Programs can be improved during the season, but, often, better performances (without any significant changes to the programs) are enough to make the programs look better.

 

[maya1985]

I have the impression that some people want to be persuaded that Papadakis and Cizeron is offside for this season...

Everybody forgets that French championships were their first competition after Gabriella's injury, nevertheless their performances, in live were incredible...

 

[cocotaffy]

here are the score sheets from GPF and French Nationals so you can compare Gaby/Guillaume, C/B and W/P's programs.
SD: France - GPF
FD: France GPF

Tx # Daphenaxa for all this info. I agree with you that P/C shouldn't be written out of contention, but as I hear other members questioning the content of their new programs, I can see they need to work on them especially increasing the dance holds in the FD.
On the other hand, I also agree with #lauravvv about the "easiness" of P/C's programs being deceptive. I would love to see W/P, C/B or S/S trying to skate P/C's programs and see if they could achieve the same speed and flawless execution. But, alas, we'll never know
Now, I've never seen those teams skate live, but what strikes me is P/C's speed, smoothness but yet sharpness on the ice. For instance, even though S/S have terrific programs this season, and they're the king and queen of the twizzles, they do look a bit slower and careful than the 3 other top teams. So, that would make it easier for them to get a neat execution. W/P do look fast enough and I think they improved their ease on the ice but their interpretation look affected and not organic like a modern dance student trying really hard to look dramatic, especially Weaver's facial expression. As for C/B, they improved their connection to each other, he, in particular, made a lot of progress on the interpretation side and they're fast but they don't always look that polished. As for the italians, they lack in the interpretation area for me. In brief, every top team is missing something IMO, but P/C seems to have it all (again provided they rework a bit their programs). Anyway, I guess I'm just what you call a fan
Also, if we really want a fair comparison, maybe we should compare all the teams first appearance this season, after all French Nationals was only P/C's first appearance. I bet W/P, C/B and S/S would not stand a chance
As I remember, only C/L started very strongly their season this year, and after last year's debacle, it make sense.

 

[Pika]

P/C got really lucky with their FD that year.

I don't see how you can "get lucky" with a dance? Can you explain your point because I don't get it.

I agree with your last post cocotaffy. I will just add that P/C's main contenders at Euros, aka C/L are so much weaker in term of tech. Just look at her edges.