Gabriella Papadakis & Guillaume Cizeron

[cocotaffy]

I admit that I watch them because I like the format, however they can be unbearable with some skaters especially if you have your favourites. But on a technical point of view, they don't have much to offer, especially in Ice Dance. For the Rostelecom recap basically, it was : "this should be above" "this should not have been that way", but it was a bit empty, no explanations. However they seem really excited about Ice Dance this year, so I always want to know what their opinion is. I just wished they got someone like Tracy Wilson, Tanith, Ben, Mark Hanretty to comment with them (but if they're already commenting on TV it could be seen as a conflict).

He actually quite likes P/C but his knowledge of ID is just not very good plus he's absolutely not objective. He did invite guests the season right after Jenny left. It was the best season imo but his attitude, the constant gossiping, bad mouthing and unfounded insinuations made it impossible I think for people of the skating world to be associated with his show. Look at that video he reposted yesterday, an incendiary video from the skating protocol about Carol Lane and her comments during Rostelecom. Sure, those comments were totally out of order and I still don't get why she comments while coaching a major team but TSL shouldn't play along with those type of catty videos if he wants to be taken seriously by the professionals. Anyway, I have to say I still check what he and his sidekick have to say (just the ID part though) every post GP. Call me a masochist

 

[Purv]

Yep, and this is why I do not understand some of their toughest critics out there always saying they don't skate to the beat of the music, because in both their SD and FD this year they really match their body movements and blade work to the beats imo (esp. as I've said it before in the SD set pattern, I keep watching it trying to see if they're missing a beat at some point but no, this pattern is pure gold). Sure, in the fastest section of the FD, they still need to pick up speed especially right after the whirlwind of their Rolift and SpinCombo but it will come with the season. Last year too, they had hard time to keep up with the demanding tempo of the 1st part but by Euros they were there and then we all know how it was at Worlds. This season, they are much closer already so I hope by GPF, the speed should be right where it needs to be.

I dont think it is a problem with a speed. They re not slow, the music is veeery fast.Very. You have to be freaking Michael Flatley if you really to keep up with the music. I would add rather more body movements, synchronized with the music. I find this part litle empty(only those few second before he fall ) They need to put something there. Some more choreo .And I believe they will.The rest - i love it. The first part is fantastic and middle one my favourite(the moment when they turn their backs on each other)

 

[icetigger]

Yep, and this is why I do not understand some of their toughest critics out there always saying they don't skate to the beat of the music, because in both their SD and FD this year they really match their body movements and blade work to the beats imo (esp. as I've said it before in the SD set pattern, I keep watching it trying to see if they're missing a beat at some point but no, this pattern is pure gold). Sure, in the fastest section of the FD, they still need to pick up speed especially right after the whirlwind of their Rolift and SpinCombo but it will come with the season. Last year too, they had hard time to keep up with the demanding tempo of the 1st part but by Euros they were there and then we all know how it was at Worlds. This season, they are much closer already so I hope by GPF, the speed should be right where it needs to be.

I think some of those critics are referring to is a particular section of the rules. The ISU rules state for the short dance the couple must primarily skate to the rhythm, whereas in the free dance they are supposed to skate to a mixture of the melody and rhythm. It's not really about timing and being on the beat. Papadakis and Cizeron are exceptional (the best) at dancing to the melody- like in this section before the diagonal step. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SwGAKU27K0&t=286s Plus that picture they create at 3:28 on exactly the right note, and the turns on exactly the right note are brilliant. Also, their 2015 free skate which transformed them as skaters- being Mozart- has the most complex, nuanced and lengthily phrased melody of really anything to which anyone could skate; and they performed whole sections that hit every note and nuance of that melody in a way that was gobsmacking (see for example Tara Lipinski's commentary for NBC https://youtu.be/aPGhrx11xGA?t=3m6s); and separated them from every other skater currently competing.

Whereas with the short dance, if there is a melody to the piece of music you are using, it should almost be ignored. I do think that is not necessarily an easy thing for them to do, or a natural thing to do, because it's a bit of false construction to say there is a rhythm and a melody (as per the ISU rules) because the melody is a form of rhythm, albeit a polyrhythm with pitch changes and timbre changes as well depending on the instrumentation, all of which in themselves are rhythmic. What the ISU really means by saying rhythm is a mono rhythm, i.e the same construction of beats usually repeated over a bar or two, repeated and repeated and repeated. And if like Papadakis and Cizeron you have developed this extraordinary ability to dance to the melody, and in music it's in the melody that all thoughts and feelings are carried, the switching that part of your brain off is in my opinion difficult. I would cite as an example Virtue and Moir's Kiss opening as a brilliant example of skating to the rhythm while ignoring the melody.

Having said all that, the choice of music for this year's short dance is superb. Shape of You melodically is very much and emphatically built around the underlying rhythm. Plus the melodic emphasises of the song fit in perfectly during the set pattern. And I think that is really why this programme will really work for them this year. I.e. if the criticism is that they are better dancing to the melody than the rhythm, if you choose pieces of music where the two are are aligned as closely as possible, that criticism becomes null and void.

 

[cocotaffy]

all of your post

this is the best explanation I've ever read on the subject esp. how you explain the ISU requirements for the SD. I have to say, I've still a lot to learn about ID rules and requirements even though I've came back to skating with P/C so it's already been 3 years, I must be a slow learner. Some of those rules though can be a head scratcher.

 

[Harriet]

A new article, I hope they will quickly correct the title

Thank you for posting that link maya1985, it's really interesting. And it gave me a reason to get over my shyness and start posting at last, too!

(I'm just getting back into watching figure skating and ice dance after fifteen? twenty? years away and have got very fond of Papadakis and Cizeron very quickly. It's been quite an education reading back through this thread over the past few days. And I can't wait to see them at the Cup of China in a few weeks!)

 

[cocotaffy]

Thank you for posting that link maya1985, it's really interesting. And it gave me a reason to get over my shyness and start posting at last, too!

(I'm just getting back into watching figure skating and ice dance after fifteen? twenty? years away and have got very fond of Papadakis and Cizeron very quickly. It's been quite an education reading back through this thread over the past few days. And I can't wait to see them at the Cup of China in a few weeks!)

Welcome Harriet, you're definitely not the only one to have stop watching skating and been brought back by P/C. Post long and often, the more the merrier especially during an Olympic season.

 

[Bcash]

I think some of those critics are referring to is a particular section of the rules. The ISU rules state for the short dance the couple must primarily skate to the rhythm, whereas in the free dance they are supposed to skate to a mixture of the melody and rhythm. It's not really about timing and being on the beat. Papadakis and Cizeron are exceptional (the best) at dancing to the melody- like in this section before the diagonal step. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SwGAKU27K0&t=286s Plus that picture they create at 3:28 on exactly the right note, and the turns on exactly the right note are brilliant. Also, their 2015 free skate which transformed them as skaters- being Mozart- has the most complex, nuanced and lengthily phrased melody of really anything to which anyone could skate; and they performed whole sections that hit every note and nuance of that melody in a way that was gobsmacking (see for example Tara Lipinski's commentary for NBC https://youtu.be/aPGhrx11xGA?t=3m6s); and separated them from every other skater currently competing.

Whereas with the short dance, if there is a melody to the piece of music you are using, it should almost be ignored. I do think that is not necessarily an easy thing for them to do, or a natural thing to do, because it's a bit of false construction to say there is a rhythm and a melody (as per the ISU rules) because the melody is a form of rhythm, albeit a polyrhythm with pitch changes and timbre changes as well depending on the instrumentation, all of which in themselves are rhythmic. What the ISU really means by saying rhythm is a mono rhythm, i.e the same construction of beats usually repeated over a bar or two, repeated and repeated and repeated. And if like Papadakis and Cizeron you have developed this extraordinary ability to dance to the melody, and in music it's in the melody that all thoughts and feelings are carried, the switching that part of your brain off is in my opinion difficult. I would cite as an example Virtue and Moir's Kiss opening as a brilliant example of skating to the rhythm while ignoring the melody.

Having said all that, the choice of music for this year's short dance is superb. Shape of You melodically is very much and emphatically built around the underlying rhythm. Plus the melodic emphasises of the song fit in perfectly during the set pattern. And I think that is really why this programme will really work for them this year. I.e. if the criticism is that they are better dancing to the melody than the rhythm, if you choose pieces of music where the two are are aligned as closely as possible, that criticism becomes null and void.

Thanks so much for this informed reading of the rules and their application to skaters. We need more posts like this.

 

[floatingworld]

A little mention of and praise for Gabby and Guillaume in a ballet forum:

http://balletalert.invisionzone.com...s-and-guillaume-cizeron-free-dance-2017-2018/

 

[cocotaffy]

A little mention of and praise for Gabby and Guillaume in a ballet forum:

http://balletalert.invisionzone.com...s-and-guillaume-cizeron-free-dance-2017-2018/

Great, I say bring all those ballet fans to skating. If anyone can do it, it's surely Gaby and Guillaume.

 

[dada16]

Oh my god, I just start praying that gabby and guillaume will be able to stay close to SP score of V/M which is today more than 82,68. Even if it is overscored for me, It makes me so anxious.

 

[Diok]

What was gabby and cizeron's SD score in Finlandia? I thought Tessa and Scott's SD was great very difficult and their twizzles were tight but i love papadakis and Cizeron too. This season should be interesting and more closer.

 

[VikiLeeks]

What was gabby and cizeron's SD score in Finlandia? I thought Tessa and Scott's SD was great very difficult and their twizzles were tight but i love papadakis and Cizeron too. This season should be interesting and more closer.

78.09

 

[Tila]

78,09

 

[Diok]

Was there a mistake?

 

[MelDee]

Was there a mistake?

Go check the protocols, the link is either in the Finlandia thread or a couple of pages back in this one. Basically, their step sequences were at lvl 3. Don't forget when comparing the scores (can you really, though?) that P/C's was a challenger event, and that V/M's score got inflated because they compete on home soil. Next week, we're gonna see what P/C look like a month after their season debut, so let's drop this "V/M scare" and focus on Gaby and Guillaume.

 

[Diok]

Nobody is scared lol it's a sport.
Tessa and Scott on home soil yes but that SD was great im sorry it's very excting to watch and which im sure papadakis and Cizeron will be too next week! Atleast we have a real competition so all good.

 

[Roast Toast]

The main point difference in the SD last season (on top of the errors that P/C were plagued with) was the midline step sequence. If they can consistently get level 4 on that element then they should be close enough to challenge in the FD. It's a tough road -- last year V/M won based off of levels, and that's not really something Gaby and Guillaume can do. There just isn't enough room. If they want to win, they'll have to do it through GOEs.

 

[icetigger]

Go check the protocols, the link is either in the Finlandia thread or a couple of pages back in this one. Basically, their step sequences were at lvl 3. Don't forget when comparing the scores (can you really, though?) that P/C's was a challenger event, and that V/M's score got inflated because they compete on home soil. Next week, we're gonna see what P/C look like a month after their season debut, so let's drop this "V/M scare" and focus on Gaby and Guillaume.

All four top teams got personal bests in the short (once you remove the deduction from H/D). The tech panel gave v/m all level fours and the other top two teams all fours except a three on the midline non-touching. So VM maxed out on the base value. The tech panel were American, Canadian and Finnish. There was no French judge. Virtue and Moir's skating in terms of edge work looked excellent, so I think the levels were probably justified.

Last year at Worlds P/C got three level threes in the short. At Finlandia, P/C got two level threes in the short.

P/C to be in order to be in the running to guarantee to beat/be around the same score as V/M in the short need to get all level fours. They can maybe drop a level or two against other couples but that shouldn't be what they should counting on in any way shape or form.

But from what I have seen, they are going for it! This was these teams second outing at an international. We have only seen P/C's first, and even then it was obvious they were really striving to get level fours. I would even think that Guillaume's fall in the free may have been because he missed a feature in the diagonal step and was pre-occupied about it when doing the double twizzle.

And that's the most important thing- that sense they have to go for it. The programmes are the best that I have seen. A little development on the free, a little tidying of the short and they are there. The rest all needs to be on the edges and getting level fours on the step sequences. It's so important. It's not what I love about them. It's not that important to me in appreciating who they are as people or artist, but in terms of the competitive side of this sport, it's what matters; and I want them to win.

 

[maya1985]

Thanks icetigger

I hope Gabi and Guillaume will have more than 80 in China (even if comparing the scores of two different competitions does not mean much, they must stay in touch). What I'm afraid is that the judges have put V/M out of competition (with a clear enough message: impossible to beat at least on the short and if there is no problem tonight they will have more than 120, I guess), I can not help but worry
I would like to be already next week for the Cup of China :hap85:

 

[Anna189]

Thanks icetigger

I hope Gabi and Guillaume will have more than 80 in China (even if comparing the scores of two different competitions does not mean much, they must stay in touch). What I'm afraid is that the judges have put V/M out of competition (with a clear enough message: impossible to beat at least on the short and if there is no problem tonight they will have more than 120, I guess), I can not help but worry
I would like to be already next week for the Cup of China :hap85:

Let's be optimistic V/M's performance was great and they deserved a high score (I'm not sure if a new WR, but I'm no expert at this, so I trust the ones who know better ) Also, they competed at home, so that might have reflected in that as well. I admit it - I got a little scared too. But then I realised the situation is a bit different than last year. This SD of theirs is different. They looked so ready when they performed it for the first time (while Tessa and Scott competed for the second time yesterday) and that was almost a month ago. We'll know better next week (I wish I had a time machine and could already see it ) but I wouldn't fear anything yet. I believe they know what they must do, they learned a lot from the last season and won't give up easily.