Grand Prix Final OD

[~tapdancer]

Your opinion, nevergonnadance. I found D/W's edging to be superior, the quality of their skating high, and their unison is wonderful. I don't why it's so hard for some fans to believe that D/W are a very good ice dance team and the judges like what they see...a lot. But then again, from what I know from skating forums, a lot of folks think they know much more than the judges. But it's all opinions, it's all a matter of personal preference and taste, aesthetic value, and assorted reasons for liking or disliking a skater.

I think D/W are the best ice team I've ever had the pleasure to enjoy but that's just my opinion, too!

 

[Medusa]

Your opinion, nevergonnadance. I found D/W's edging to be superior, the quality of their skating high, and their unison is wonderful. I don't why it's so hard for some fans to believe that D/W are a very good ice dance team and the judges like what they see...a lot. But then again, from what I know from skating forums, a lot of folks think they know much more than the judges. But it's all opinions, it's all a matter of personal preference and taste, aesthetic value, and assorted reasons for liking or disliking a skater.

I think D/W are the best ice team I've ever had the pleasure to enjoy but that's just my opinion, too!

What I like about Davis / White is that they look so natural out there. They are not overly stylised, they seem to have serious fun, it's so flowing... With V/M I have the feeling that they are somehow trying too hard. As if they have this list of really high goals (be always elegant, be always classical, no crazy ideas, wear only elegant - for Moir manly - clothing etc.) and it makes their performances seem calculated, even their FD, that in my opinion is great - but would look so much better with some more emotional abandon in it. Maybe I am also negatively influenced by Moir's remarks from SC.

I simply prefer the two US-Americans, who seem fun, who seem to enjoy themselves out there, who seem quirky at times - even with their rather unimaginative FD.

 

[shine]

Virtue/Moir's Circular steps are amazing!

 

[Medusa]

But they are skating to a serious FLAMENCO, not a fun loving quirky routine like the Kerrs and Italians or anything with humour...so would it help to change that perception if they skated to something cheesy and cringeworthy even if the program sucks?

But can't you skate to something serious without making it look like you are currently trying to repaint the Mona Lisa? Flamenco is serious, but neither Pechalat/Bourzat's Flamenco a few years ago, nor Lambiel's Flamenco looked that serious. To me it sometimes look as if they try to do everything the right, the best way - and that the emotional impact suffers from that.

 

[museksk8r]

I'm so ecstatic to see Meryl and Charlie in 1st place after the OD . . . so well deserved! It doesn't quite make up for their being wuzrobbed of a World medal last season, but it certainly will be a very strong statement if they win this GPF heading into U.S. Nationals. How amazing it would be if they could upset Belbin/Agosto and establish themselves as the top American team going into the Olympics, which I already think they are, but it's nice that the judges are FINALLY starting to reward them. GO D/W!!!

 

[100yen]

Meryl & Charlie's program gives me the chills!!!
I love it! When the OD was over, I had to go back and watch it three times in a row. It's a unique, difficult and beautiful dance and they keep the energy waay up throughout the whole thing. Tessa & Scott are amazing, but like it was said before, I just don't get the same sense of freedom and love of skating itself from their programs as I do from D&W.
Whatever the score, D&W very, very much deserved this OD in my opinion.

 

[ehdtkqorl123]

By the way, I was shocked when I saw the picture of D/W on the front page of icenetwork. Don't they have a better picture, or does the website designer simply hate D/W? hwell:

 

[colleen o'neill]

Gee, I can't believe anyone could fault Scott on his manly costumes. Bring on more manly costumes ! :yes:

nevergonnadance , that last post was so well put. I'm always interested in what you have to say, likewise with dorispulaski , mathman (oh the numbers!) and others. I've never skated, except recreationally, but have been a serious follower of this sport for longer than ( probably) some of our members have been alive.I do have a long history with various forms of dance. Anyway, while I have a pretty well trained eye (after 30+ years), I don't always have the technical terminology to express my thoughts.And even if I did , then there's trying to understand the judges.....I must like a challenge... I'm still watching.

I like D/W very much and enjoy their enthusiasm, but generally,they don't seem to me to quite come up to V/M's technical expertise. I thought that almost two points difference seemed a bit much , particularly since I thought D/W skated the program better in previous outings. And I fully expect to see further refinement to V/M's OD ( it has been their m.o.)...what will the judges do with that ?

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

I'm more excited by how close P/B and K/K are.

 

[inside edge]

I agree

What I like about Davis / White is that they look so natural out there. They are not overly stylised, they seem to have serious fun, it's so flowing... With V/M I have the feeling that they are somehow trying too hard. As if they have this list of really high goals (be always elegant, be always classical, no crazy ideas, wear only elegant - for Moir manly - clothing etc.) and it makes their performances seem calculated, even their FD, that in my opinion is great - but would look so much better with some more emotional abandon in it. Maybe I am also negatively influenced by Moir's remarks from SC.

I simply prefer the two US-Americans, who seem fun, who seem to enjoy themselves out there, who seem quirky at times - even with their rather unimaginative FD.

ITA
Maybe I am also negatively influenced by Moir's remarks from SC.
I understand what you mean:think:

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

What did he say this time?

 

[jcoates]

This is purely speculation on my part, but I get the sense that while they are undeniably talented and worthy of praise, V/M have benefited greatly in the (positive) hype they receive because they had the path cleared for them in Canada when D/L retired. To be fair, this also presented them with the opportunity to become the leaders in their own country and step up the level of their skating. Still, they have the full force of their federation behind them, boosting their best qualities while D/W have had to work their way up more slowly in the shadow of B/A. That has led to them being overlooked sometimes. Their best qualities have tended to be diminished by relative lack of media attention.

Of course, being training mates with V/M and formerly with B/A, D/W were perpetually being compared to them and not usually favorably. That tends to sink into one's perception over time. Perhaps this is why some always see them as inferior to V/M and other teams despite any improvements they might make. There almost seems to be an opinion among some fans and even journalists that it's unthinkable for D/W to ever beat V/M fairly.

We've all heard how much stock the Canadian federation is putting behind V/M. That should not be a surprise given that they are the host for the upcoming Olys. But the hype at the senior level goes back to at least 2007 worlds if not 2006 Skate Canada. If you can find video of V/M's FD from either event, there was already OGM speculation about them then and not for 2014. Despite the fact that they finished one spot lower at Worlds and had an equally auspicious debut, D/W got little, if any, of the same media speculation. That may be due in part to the fact that the US is still getting accustomed to ice dance being its deepest discipline. Canada has been dance crazy for nearly 30 years and is always looking for the next stars. Americans may have been used to boosting only one team at a time for so long, that the prospect of two or three seemed too good to be true.

Still, that's where we are now. B/A's injuries over the last two seasons finally provided enough daylight for D/W to emerge as serious contenders. Perhaps that long apprenticeship was for the best. I've always had the sense that they prefer being the hunters rather than the hunted, at least up to this point. That extra wait may have given them the time to develop and grow and catch up to their peers in areas where they had previously been deficient.

The judges certainly seem to be looking at them with fresh eyes. I think that's good for ice dance as a sport. Perhaps there really will be no more waiting your turn or set pecking orders. We'll see.

Good luck to all.

 

[nevergonnadance]

Some of the above observations are very nice but they are not what is supposed to be judged. They go to personal enjoyment of a program and taste, not skating quality.

In NO way were D/W's pc's superior today and it is galling that they were two points ahead when it was as rough and sloppy as it was in parts, and when White's own account of their skating was way more accurate than what the judges scored. Yeah, they should look at the program and judge it with fresh eyes, not BLIND eyes as they did today.

 

[~tapdancer]

jcoates, that was a great post and you made some terrific points about the parallel rise of D/W and V/M. That was well-thought and intelligent unlike some other comments. It's posts like yours that keep me reading forums despite the less intelligent posts that one has to wade through. Thank you for that.

 

[i love to skate]

V/M I have the feeling that they are somehow trying too hard. As if they have this list of really high goals (be always elegant, be always classical, no crazy ideas, wear only elegant - for Moir manly - clothing etc.) and it makes their performances seem calculated, even their FD, that in my opinion is great - but would look so much better with some more emotional abandon in it.

Is it a bad thing to have a list of high goals or to wear manly costumes? V/M have the most innovative lifts out there - doing a loop off of your partner's thigh?? I think that sounds pretty crazy. They aren't always elegant - for example, Dark Eyes and Pink Floyd.

Maybe I am also negatively influenced by Moir's remarks from SC.

What did he say?

Here is a fantastic montage I found on Youtube of them for anyone that is interested:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goSHZ4-jNzc

 

[jcoates]

Oh MY. V/M were always above D/W cuz they frekaing DESERVED it.

i'll write a longer longer post later after work...

While I think you just proved my point, it would benefit all interested in discussing this point calmly if you would please take it down a notch.

Nevertheless, any accurate reading of my post would find that I never accused V/M of not deserving any placement they have earned. My point was in reference primarily to the perception of the two teams' qualities with respect die hard fans (many of whom have very firm favorites) and at times the media. I only referenced judges by name at the end and only to make the fairly obvious point that D/W are getting new-found respect and attention from multiple judging panels which frankly is an extension of the work from last season.

Skaters are not static beings who are born with gold medals around their necks. Some are more naturally talented than others. Some take longer to mature. That should not preclude us from appreciating any skater or team when then reach a new level of performance. Whether you support them or not, that achievement should be appreciated.

Making an effort put aside preconceived opinions and look at skaters with a fresh perspective was the ultimate point I was trying to make. That does not mean unanimity of opinion has to be reached.

BTW, I suspect that much of the 1.79 lead earned came from increased levels on the circular step sequence. D/W earned a level 4. As dorispulaski noted in another thread, the rules as currently written indicate that PCS tend to go up when all technical elements are performed with greater speed and higher levels. That may explain the now apparently controversial wuzzrobbed D/W lead.

That's all I have to say on the matter. Vent if you must.

 

[mishieru07]

I'm more excited by how close P/B and K/K are.

OH YES. I'm quite surprised but very happy! I thought P/B would be further ahead.

GO KERRS! Prove my bronze medal predictions wrong!

I haven't seen D/W's OD, so no comments. V/M had a good, solid outing, but that wasn't their best skate. Considering the circumstances though, props to them for skating like they did with jet lag (14 hours! ouch). I thought the lift was wonky and they seemed kinda tired. Nonetheless, they deserved their marks.

I'm hoping Doris, wallylutz or Dragonlady will do a more detailed explanation. I'm no technique expert. *looks around hopefully*

I love both teams but my impression is that the Canadians have insane edging (often commented on by commentators), unison, free leg extensions and toe points; overall neat, precise technicians. D/W have improved tremendously as well but their carriage and unison cannot (as yet) match up to V/M's (I watched their tango romanticas back to back). Both teams are technically VERY good though, this is nit-picking.

One thing I really love about V/M is that they are typically well-dressed. In a discipline which is perhaps most prone to questionable/ hideous clothing a la K/N, I'm grateful that they wear appropriate, classy costumes. I'd like them to stay that way unless the dance calls for it, thanks. K/N have hurt my eyes badly as it is.

Great post jcoates! Can't say I agree with everything you said (and IIRC, no one was saying that V/M would be Olympic contenders back in 06/07) but that was a thoughtful and logical argument.

I haven't seen V/M skating with total abandon since the 2007/08 season because of Tessa's injury (Their Worlds 08 FD is ). Shades of it appeared in the SC FD, so hopefully we'll see them kick it up another notch today.

Well folks, the battles in US nationals and Olympics just got more interesting.

 

[dorispulaski]

I really enjoyed and like Meryl + Charlie's SP.
Especially the facial expression of Meryl in the beginning is just

By the way, a friend of mine said they look like an Indian girl and a white tourist lol (not that he didn't like Charlie)

Meryl said in an interview that she is an Indian girl, and she pictures Charlie as a British officer (presumably going native in his kurta pajamas). I can see that.

By the way, I was shocked when I saw the picture of D/W on the front page of icenetwork. Don't they have a better picture, or does the website designer simply hate D/W? hwell:

When they put up the Watch Live Now pictures, it was a very nice photo of V&M's end pose. It looks like this result caught icenetwork a little flat footed, and says lots about how USFS views D&W, given that icenetwork is a subsidiary of the federation.

As to D&W's lead, the isu.org report of the first day says that V&M's levels were below D&W's in most cases. Charlie White said they got all Level 4. There are 4 scored elements, 2 of them step sequences, the twizzles, and one lift. We'll know when we see the protocols, but I'm guessing V&M got Level3 on both step sequences, which explains most of the the TES gap.

I thought the lift was wonky and they seemed kinda tired. Nonetheless, they deserved their marks.

It's possible that they lost a level on the lift, too, since 'most of' is not 'half of'.

Additionally, the midline sequence at the end of V&M has nothing but very fast flamenco foot stamping noise; no music. A major part of PCS is timing; i.e. skating on the beat. I don't think any team could appear to have good timing skating to that foot tapping, which is variable in speed. In fact, the whole choreo, which is excellent up to that point, rather falls apart as a composition from then on. Since that is near the end of the program, the result is to end the program on a PCS low note. And PCS is assigned by the judges at the end of the program.

So picture yourself a judge--you go from V&M with a great beginning and an unsatisfying ending to D&W who end on a high point and have the first all level 4 OD of any team of the season. Both teams got partial standing ovations. The PCS are not going to go down much vis a vis V&M and in fact, go up a little.

That is the advantage of skating last, not to mention that the fact of D&W skating last is due to the fact that they won the tie break over their GP events to win that position, and of course, the judges know it.

This is an interesting competition since really only the British judge and the Canadian judge have their number one team competing. The head tech specialist is Alexander Gorshkov, and he really does not have a dog in the fight. I'm not sure what that means, and I could spin a conspiracy theory out of it, but it would be just idle speculation.

It is true that Charlie skated that OD better at NHK. However, V&M had some little glitches possibly due to being a day late to the competition and possibly due to the fact that they skated this program really poorly at SC. It was great to see them skate it the best they have this season.

As to the 'highest score of the season' business, every season the judges crank the scores up at GPF, 4CC's, Euros and Worlds (not to mention Olympics) versus the Grand Prix events. They should not pretend that those scores are meaningful in an absolute sense...but of course, they do.

The protocols will be interesting.

 

[jcoates]

Great post jcoates! Can't say I agree with everything you said (and IIRC, no one was saying that V/M would be Olympic contenders back in 06/07) but that was a thoughtful and logical argument.

I haven't seen V/M skating with total abandon since the 2007/08 season because of Tessa's injury (Their Worlds 08 FD is ). Shades of it appeared in the SC FD, so hopefully we'll see them kick it up another notch today.

Thank you and the same to tapdancer for the kind comments.

I did a little digging and pulled up the following video of the type of boosting I was referring to. While the Olympics themselves are not mentioned in either video, near term world podium finishes are, which is an indication of Olympic contention. Virtue and Moir deserved every comment they got. I was just as impressed with their debut as D/W that season.

V/M 2007 Worlds FD (see starting at the 5:00 mark for the comments)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObiFIVdZovo

V/M 2006 TEB FD (see 5:15 mark for comments)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAN_MC4p6Rw&feature=fvw

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Were D/L definitely retiring at that point, though?