Great Edges

[FlattFan]

Uh-huh. Between the 96 and 00 Ira had three European golds, two World silvers and the GPF's gold and silver. That's not a second tier. For instance, in the first five seasons Carolina had one Worlds silver medal and two European golds - that's a second tier. As to programs, Carolina's neither were masterpieces, for the most time they were not masterpieces as well.
And calling Alena and Irina gross is not just unnecessary and rude but also strange coming from a Flatt's fan (Rachael is not gross or anything but she's not above criticism and gets to be called some hurtful names).

Did you not understand what I said?
When did I say Carolina has a more prolific career than Irina?
Good grief. And I call them what I want. Nothing's rude about calling public figure coming from anyone, even Rachael's fan.
If they look gross to me, I call them gross.

 

[Jaana]

I wouldn't put Kwan or Gordeeva anywhere near Shizuka and Carolina.
Those two have the best SS I have ever seen, especially Shizuka. She gained so much speed just by one or two strokes.

So did Ilia Kulik, too.

 

[Dragonlady]

I had forgotten about Yuka Sato. She's another skater I can watch stroke around the rink endlessly. Beautiful quiet edges and a buttery smoothness to her skating. I've never seen Kulik live but he was my favourite male skater of his era. I saw Katia once, at the 1998 Canadian Stars on Ice Tour and she was wonderful too. Katia has an etherial quality to her skating which is beautiful and rare. Mao Asada had it too before she went to Tarasova and then she lost it. I'm happy to see it coming back now that she's working with Lori Nichol again.

 

[trains]

Chan, Kostner, Sato for sure. Also back in the days of hours and hours of figure training skaters had generally better edges, but not, of course, the difficult jumps of today.
It has a lot to do with where the skater is on the blade in relation to the timing of the knee bend in the stroke, and what part of the blade of the pushing foot leaves the ice, and when, in the actual push. And where the weight is balanced and transferred between the strokes. Also the depth of lean without breaking the body line at the hip. The best skaters have the deepest knee bend through this, and are silent because there is minimal friction between the blade and the ice. Some dancers even shave the sides of the boot soles a bit to increase how far they can lean without the boot hitting the ice. The line that is carved on the ice is a true curve without the foot making those small wavering zig zags. It's hardest to do in footwork where the edges in and out of the turns are short and quick. Good skaters can do it; lesser skaters do all the turns and the steps but those split second short edges are not as clean.
Good coaching from the very beginning can teach this but the very best skaters seem to have an inate natural understanding of how to do this, combined with good training.
This is what is rewarded in 'skating skills' and the judges have well trained eyes for it.
I actually heard this conversation once between three international judges (not Canadian!) watching Patrick Chan practice a competition: "Ooh, I get goosebumps just watching him do crosscuts around the corner", [giggles], "I can't believe it".
Another time I heard a European judge remark that Kostner was the best 'skater' in the world.

 

[Olympia]

One thing I remember about Yuka (one of my favorite skaters ever) is that the camera used to focus on her feet quite often. That was very unusual in those pre-CoP days, but everyone recognized that she was doing something special in terms of blade control. A commentator once compared her favorably to another skater (out of charity I will not name that other skater) in terms of the way she varied her stroking and foot positions while skating and didn't just pace along between jumps. It was one of the first times I had my attention called to the basic elements of skating, so I think of Yuka as one of my teachers.

 

[Ambivalent]

I remember Dick Button saying that Yu-Na skates with wonderful edges and speed.

 

[Bartek]

Her peak in term of dominance. She was the strongest skater during the 2005-2006 time frame.
She couldn't control her edges well and yet she did the Biellman spirals for 2 seasons. Either Irina is stupid, or the system rewarded the B spiral more. In either case, she sacrificed ease and effortless and edge control for harder spiral, and for what she put out, she's far inferior to Carolina's. Don't tell me what she "can" do. That's the problem with CoP. Everything is graded based on what a skater "can" do, and not what they did.

She was overwhelmed by emotions for 2 seasons? Every single competitions?



Show me one footwork sequence Irina had that was anywhere near as complex as Caro's.

Btw, Carolina had 2 3x3 in her LP. Landed more 3x3 in competitions. Landed fully rotated 3x3s all the time. Irina at her best barely cracked a 3x3. And under the current rule, would be 3x3<. How did she deliver a technical content Carolina can't even dream of? Seriously?
If anyone who had a technical content that Carolina can't even dream of, it would be Mao's if she had both the 3x3 and the 3A. Or miki with both 4S and 3x3.

When you have your peak of dominance, it doesn't mean that some of your qualities or elements must be better or worse than they were before your dominance or after it. Irina didn't perform more complex footwork than Carolina simply because she didn't have to. She competed under CoP when the requirements for levels in footworks weren't as high as they are now. Irina could get level 2 (2004-2005 season) or 3 (2005-2006 season) with what she did and it was fair enough. On the other hand, the system wanted her to use biellmans in her spirals, this was the way (and still is) to get higher level so she did use biellmans and sacrified a bit of an edge control, yet she still always get high GOE on her spirals, higher than Kostner for that matter. You can look at the protocls and see whose spirals the judges considered as better.

Irina was overwhelmed by emotions in 2005 Worlds and at this competition she indeed delivered the contect Carolina could only dream of. Kostner would never ever land a clean ratified 3Lz+3Lo and than cleanly nail 5 triples. The number of landed triple-triples in their career isn't the key factor. Carolina landed a triple-triple? And so what? After that she always struggle to stay on her feet. Irina didn't have many 7 triples program in her career and neither Carolina did but what Irina did many times was CLEAN free skate. And how many times did Kostner skated cleanly in the long program? One, two? I can only think of 2003 Euros. And when we talk about Carolina's triple-triples, she always does a toeloop as the sacond jump which is WAY easier than using a loop. If Kostner used 3+3Lo she would underrotated it as well and Irina actually landed a few clean fully rotated 3+3Lo's in her career. This is what Kostner can't dream of. Her 3F+3T used to be beautiful and huge when done cleanly but half of the time she bent her upper body forward and had a sloppy landing. In fact, Kostner is most of the time sloppy on her landings in EVERY FS.

In case of clean FS Irina wins hands down. She has more seven triples program as well. Carolina accomplished that only at 2003 Euros if I remember correctly. These are Ira's clean long programs I can think of now:
Worlds 1997 (6 triples with clean 3S+3Lo)
Worlds 2002 (6 triples)
Worlds 2005 (7 triples with clean 3Lz+3Lo)
GPF 1999-2000 2nd FS (7 triples with underrotated 3Lz+3Lo and fully rotated 3S+3Lo)
GPF 2002-2003 1st FS (6 triples)
Russian Nats 2001 (7 triples with clean 3Lz+3Lo)
Marshall's Cup 2004 (6 triples)
Euros 1996 (6 triples and Dick button saying she has a knock-out jumps)
Euros 2000 (6 triples)

There were surely more in her career, these are just I remember now. Look at her spirals at 1996 Euros, the deep edges are amazing, deeper than Carolina's edges in her spirals. Of course the positions could be a lot better but Kostner doesn't have beautiful positions in her spirals as well.

 

[ivy]

It has a lot to do with where the skater is on the blade in relation to the timing of the knee bend in the stroke, and what part of the blade of the pushing foot leaves the ice, and when, in the actual push. And where the weight is balanced and transferred between the strokes. Also the depth of lean without breaking the body line at the hip. The best skaters have the deepest knee bend through this, and are silent because there is minimal friction between the blade and the ice.

Good coaching from the very beginning can teach this but the very best skaters seem to have an inate natural understanding of how to do this, combined with good training.

Thanks so much trains! I found that really helpful. It helps me understand part of what those deep soft knees are doing and why they're so important.

 

[kwanatic]

Some of my favorite Kwan examples. Granted, these sequences are nearly as long as COP tailored footwork sections, but she maintains great speed and makes the movements look effortless:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=_-FGgLaAFs0#t=115s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=uwKUCvJ4hBI#t=91s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=d5pL8LpFP6k#t=142s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=1imuQWeIi4Q#t=154s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=TfV0Ck1wlA0#t=150s

 

[jiggs]

Look at her spirals at 1996 Euros, the deep edges are amazing, deeper than Carolina's edges in her spirals. Of course the positions could be a lot better but Kostner doesn't have beautiful positions in her spirals as well.

I disagree. Carolina has beautiful positions in her spirals, as well as great edges and speed.

This is a thread called great edges and not a thread about who skated more clean FSs in their careers or who had better/more 3-3s. Fact is, Carolina has amazing basic skating skills and some of the deepest edges in the business. Irina had great edges too, and whether one prefers her over Carolina or not shouldn't matter in this discussion as one should be able to appreciate the wonderful basic skating skills of both those athletes.

 

[Olympia]

Chan, Kostner, Sato for sure. Also back in the days of hours and hours of figure training skaters had generally better edges, but not, of course, the difficult jumps of today.
It has a lot to do with where the skater is on the blade in relation to the timing of the knee bend in the stroke, and what part of the blade of the pushing foot leaves the ice, and when, in the actual push. And where the weight is balanced and transferred between the strokes. Also the depth of lean without breaking the body line at the hip. The best skaters have the deepest knee bend through this, and are silent because there is minimal friction between the blade and the ice. Some dancers even shave the sides of the boot soles a bit to increase how far they can lean without the boot hitting the ice. The line that is carved on the ice is a true curve without the foot making those small wavering zig zags. It's hardest to do in footwork where the edges in and out of the turns are short and quick. Good skaters can do it; lesser skaters do all the turns and the steps but those split second short edges are not as clean.
Good coaching from the very beginning can teach this but the very best skaters seem to have an inate natural understanding of how to do this, combined with good training.
This is what is rewarded in 'skating skills' and the judges have well trained eyes for it.
I actually heard this conversation once between three international judges (not Canadian!) watching Patrick Chan practice a competition: "Ooh, I get goosebumps just watching him do crosscuts around the corner", [giggles], "I can't believe it".
Another time I heard a European judge remark that Kostner was the best 'skater' in the world.

Thanks! This is a very helpful and articulate description that gives me greater understanding of the issue. Lovely story about Patrick, too. It helps me get what all the fuss is about him and it makes me feel that I'm going to like him better and better in the coming seasons.

 

[kwanatic]

Watching Patrick has never given me goosebumps but his edging is superb. My #1 favorite Blade Master is the one and only Kurt Browning. His edging and blade work is AMAZING! If you've never seen him or paid attention to him skate, you should really check him out. Kurt gives me happy piddles when I watch him skate...

I just love this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=JXtd7xq7URM#t=38s

The concept is completely brilliant--the set is perfection. But the delivery of the choreography with the added distraction of water, the prop, not to mention the added weight of skating wet...this is a masterpiece. Probably the best EVER in terms of staged specials. I never get sick of watching that...

I love this one too! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgrLRS3ChTM&feature=related. It's so cute and funny BUT the stuff he's doing is actually pretty difficult...

 

[Dragonlady]

Nothing's rude about calling public figure coming from anyone, even Rachael's fan.
If they look gross to me, I call them gross.

It's incredibly rude. You seem oblivious to the fact that these forums are read by the skaters, their parents, their coaches and their friends. I've seen skaters and/or their parent in tears over insults posted in forums.

"Gross" is a useless word when it comes to describing skating. It doesn't speak to quality or define what exactly it is about the skater you don't care for. It's just insulting.

 

[gkelly]

This might be an interesting comparison. Based on the videos, how would you describe the edge quality, or skating skills in general, of these three skaters?
Try focusing just on the blades, or from the knees down.
They're all top-notch in general, but what are the different areas in which each is outstanding vs. merely very good?
(We won't get into things like musical expression, which is a whole different set of skills)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHZiAQ9gPlg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_GCcnO0u6s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9lZ79FGN5w

 

[kwanatic]

It's incredibly rude. You seem oblivious to the fact that these forums are read by the skaters, their parents, their coaches and their friends. I've seen skaters and/or their parent in tears over insults posted in forums.

"Gross" is a useless word when it comes to describing skating. It doesn't speak to quality or define what exactly it is about the skater you don't care for. It's just insulting.

"Gross" is a bit mean I guess.

A better word would be "unappealing."

 

[Bartek]

I disagree. Carolina has beautiful positions in her spirals, as well as great edges and speed.

This is a thread called great edges and not a thread about who skated more clean FSs in their careers or who had better/more 3-3s. Fact is, Carolina has amazing basic skating skills and some of the deepest edges in the business. Irina had great edges too, and whether one prefers her over Carolina or not shouldn't matter in this discussion as one should be able to appreciate the wonderful basic skating skills of both those athletes.

I just replied to a post in which the author started to talk about their triple-triples and seven triples programs. I wasn't the one who started this. Yes this is called great edges, this is why I pointed out great edges in Irina's spirals. Of course Carolina has fantastic edges in spirals too but Irina at times had even deeper edges. I just wanted to point it out. I actually appreciate both of them, I just didn't agree with the fact, that Irina had wobbly edges and her strong point in SS was only speed.

 

[FlattFan]

When you have your peak of dominance, it doesn't mean that some of your qualities or elements must be better or worse than they were before your dominance or after it. Irina didn't perform more complex footwork than Carolina simply because she didn't have to. She competed under CoP when the requirements for levels in footworks weren't as high as they are now. Irina could get level 2 (2004-2005 season) or 3 (2005-2006 season) with what she did and it was fair enough. On the other hand, the system wanted her to use biellmans in her spirals, this was the way (and still is) to get higher level so she did use biellmans and sacrified a bit of an edge control, yet she still always get high GOE on her spirals, higher than Kostner for that matter. You can look at the protocls and see whose spirals the judges considered as better.

Irina did sloppy Biellman spirals and still got huge GOE. This is what's wrong with COP: reputation judging.
Irina didn't have to do complex footworks, Carolina had to and proved that she can. So at best, Irina would just reach Carolina's.

Irina was overwhelmed by emotions in 2005 Worlds and at this competition she indeed delivered the contect Carolina could only dream of. Kostner would never ever land a clean ratified 3Lz+3Lo and than cleanly nail 5 triples. The number of landed triple-triples in their career isn't the key factor. Carolina landed a triple-triple? And so what? After that she always struggle to stay on her feet. Irina didn't have many 7 triples program in her career and neither Carolina did but what Irina did many times was CLEAN free skate. And how many times did Kostner skated cleanly in the long program? One, two? I can only think of 2003 Euros. And when we talk about Carolina's triple-triples, she always does a toeloop as the sacond jump which is WAY easier than using a loop. If Kostner used 3+3Lo she would underrotated it as well and Irina actually landed a few clean fully rotated 3+3Lo's in her career. This is what Kostner can't dream of. Her 3F+3T used to be beautiful and huge when done cleanly but half of the time she bent her upper body forward and had a sloppy landing. In fact, Kostner is most of the time sloppy on her landings in EVERY FS.

Btw, Irina would never ever land a clean ratified 3F+3T. She doesn't like to put 3T after her combo. When she first started out, I think she did 3T3T, but the 3T was clearly URed. Just because she can do and prefer to do 3Lo in the back end of the combo doesn't make her a skater Carolina could only dream of. It's all about preference and consistency. Carolina did many more 3x3s than Irina would ever dream of, and is consistently doing so her entire career.

I never said Carolina is a better skater. I think Irina is better overall. But we're talking about great edges here.

 

[FlattFan]

It's incredibly rude. You seem oblivious to the fact that these forums are read by the skaters, their parents, their coaches and their friends. I've seen skaters and/or their parent in tears over insults posted in forums.

"Gross" is a useless word when it comes to describing skating. It doesn't speak to quality or define what exactly it is about the skater you don't care for. It's just insulting.

If they can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen.
Gross means unrefined, vulgar, distasteful. Which one doesn't apply to skating? I think it defined exactly what some skaters are.

 

[FlattFan]

I just replied to a post in which the author started to talk about their triple-triples and seven triples programs. I wasn't the one who started this. Yes this is called great edges, this is why I pointed out great edges in Irina's spirals. Of course Carolina has fantastic edges in spirals too but Irina at times had even deeper edges. I just wanted to point it out. I actually appreciate both of them, I just didn't agree with the fact, that Irina had wobbly edges and her strong point in SS was only speed.

You did. You said, and I quote, "delivering a technical content Carolina can't even dream of."
The reason I brought up all the 3x3s is because of this statement.

 

[Dragonlady]

I never said Carolina is a better skater. I think Irina is better overall. But we're talking about great edges here.

Have you seen either of these two skaters live? If not, how do you know who is a better skater? Carolina lacks the explosive power that Irina had, she's not as fast, and she does not command the ice the way Irina did. When we attended the GPF in 2002, I asked my daughter when it was over who surprised her the most impressed at that competition, and her immediate response was "Irina" and would be my answer too. Irina seemed to grow in size on the ice and tower over the rest of the women. Carolina does not have that quality. Plushenko had it. Yagudin too. The first time I saw her skate my first thought was "How does she ever lose a competition?" Seeing her the next day where she was not as comfortable with the program and skated tenatively with multiple errors, I realized that this was how.

Kostner is often not well-centered over her blades and seems on the edge of losing control. Over the years she's gone over that edge many, many times. She has improved in this regard over the past couple of seasons but that may be because she's still recovering from her injury. I like Carolina a lot. I thought her seriously over-rated when she first came up to seniors but she has improved, stays on her feet more and has worked very hard on her non-jumping skills and has become very enjoyable. But she does not have better skating skills than Irina who has the best skating skills I've seen.