Hamm and Yang

[Joesitz (RIP)]

The strong politics in the Olys probably began with the Nazis attempting to prove the master race. However over the years, the media both print and tv insist on showing what countries won medals which is telling the Nazis that they were wrong and that 'my country' has the master race. the Soviets with their satelites all had politically organized sports departments. they, too, saw the power the Nazis could gain with winning so medals.

Although the Nazis and the Soviets have departed, I am afraid the politics is still ingrained in every nation to win medals. The media insures this.

It's a shame it is no longer a praise of an individual winner but only to the nation involved. But then Sparta had its desires to win as well as Athens.

I contend this is a big part of subjectivity in judging and those subjective judged sports never select a clear winner.

Joe

 

[TNT2012]

Thank you for the welcome Mathman. I'm somewhat inclined to the notion that maybe we should really abort all subjective sports from the Olympics....but only after Michelle wins the gold in Turino. It is true, as some of you has pointed out, that the ideals of goodwill and sportsmanship that the Olympics were supposed to represent have since been overshadowed by international political maneuverings and the lure of enormous monetary gain and instant fame that potentially could result from winning a gold medal. But, it is nevertheless amazing, as Realtor Gal has expressed, "to see so many nations come together and participate in the Olympics." And for those few hours during the Opening Ceremony, it did appeared as if the whole world had suddenly transcended beyond national and racial differences to unite as one. Well, at least it would seem that way, until the competitions actually started. *sigh* Nationalism does have its negative drawbacks, doesn't it?

 

[hlannah]

I don't know how to make the link, but espn's web site has a place where various columnists weigh in on the Hamm/Yang controversy--it's under the olympic section. What many of them say is that we have to put this in perspective of all sports, and brought up mistakes made in scored sports as well: the 5th down that gave UColorado the national championship in college football, 1990, a bad call in the Raiders/Patriots game in 2002, and others. Someone else reminded us that hey, controversy gives us something to talk about every Olympics--that's part of the game! And several mentioned the hyposcrisy of some sports writers telling a guy what to do with his gold medal--one compared the medal to the One Ring.

I've been reading all the blather, and I have to think, what is wrong with the gymnastics federation? In Sydney they screw up the women's vault in the AA, here they screw up a guy's start value, and then actually change Nemov's score based on crowd response? Since when did crowd response become a factor in a score? I thought that was the way you judged dance contests at teen nightclubs! They are doing everything the can to trash their sport while these athletes work like crazy. Back in SLC, I felt a lot of righteous anger over the pairs scoring: I thought S/P were better that night--but the media way overplayed that. It was disingenuous of Scott Hamilton to be going on and on about the "scandal" when he was defending G/G's win over M/D in 94. But no one should have their Olympics ruined by someone else's idiocy, as B/S did. In retrospect, the double gold was a stupid decision. The precedent is there now--even though the situations are not analogous. We'll see a flood of requests for gold medals now.

Paul won that night based on what happened that night, period. The other guy got screwed--but that's not to say he would have won otherwise. Judged sports will always be subjective! Just wait until the protests begin when COP is put in play in skating! Imagine what kind of errors we're going to have with the "caller." Athens might just be a taste of what's to come in Torino.

It stinks that the athletes suffer for this. What will it come to? Should we go the way of political correctness? Let's award everyone a gold medal at the opening ceremonies and spend the rest of the olympics singing kumbaya together!

 

[JonnyCoop]

What I am finding most interesting -- and by saying this, I am not taking a side one way or the other re. Hamm/Yang, in part because it's just gotten way too convoluted for me to even figure out by now -- is the difference in attitude about shared gold medals by the US media.

When it was decided that Sale/Pelletier, CANADIANS, would share the medal with Bereznaja/Sikharulidze, RUSSIANS, the US media decided that that that was the right, fair thing to do. But now that there is a possibility that someone might have to share a gold medal with an AMERICAN, well, that's just ghastly and evil and an international disgrace.

I'd be very curious to see how the media of other nations are handling this, assuming that they even think it's worth mentioning at all.

 

[lavender]

I'm sure you will. I also think that you would not like to see your "solution" implemented before Michelle gets that final opportunity to skate for gold in Turino, right?

As much as I want gold for Michelle I still wouldn't care if they got rid of the Olympics. I guess maybe I don't think the OG is meant for Michelle anyway.

 

[Mathman]

Just wait until the protests begin when COP is put in play in skating! Imagine what kind of errors we're going to have with the "caller." Athens might just be a taste of what's to come in Torino.

That is a scary and a realistic fear. I supported the CoP, sort of, but oh, my! the possibilties for disaster.

One of them compared the gold medal to the One Ring.

Mathman

PS. To post a link, just copy and paste the url (include the http:// part) into the GS dialogue box. The Vboard software will take it from there, provided that you have checked where it says "automatically parse links in text," which is the forum default.

Or you can type like this

[***url]http://www.blahblahblah.com[/***url] (Take out the asterisks.)

Or if you really want to be cool you can first click on "Enhanced Mode" and then go

[*url=http://www.blahblahblah.com][*B][*SIZE=5][*COLOR=Red]HEY THERE[*/COLOR][*/SIZE][*/B][*/URL]

(Take out all asterisks.)

Then the only thing that will show is HEY THERE big and bold and red, and readers can click on that.

EDGES!

MM

 

[hlannah]

Here's the espn story:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=bloc/040823

Here's a current cnn story:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/20...s/08/24/gymnastics.judging/index.html?cnn=yes

I disagree w/some of what swift says about the level of gymnastics not improving, but he disparages fellow reporters pretty soundly for their reporting

 

[hlannah]

a quote from the espn link:

Besides, it's not like all of us don't already accept -- and secretly relish -- flawed judging in other sports. Remember the phantom tuck? College football's infamous fifth down? The Lakers-get-the-calls conspiracy theories of a few years back?

Heck, remember the last Presidential election?

 

[hockeyfan228]

Interesting thought about dropping judged events from the Olympics. The obvious suspects are:

Equestrian Dressage
Synchronized Swimming
Diving
Gymnastics (Rhythmic, Trampoline, Artistic)
Figure Skating
Aerial Skiing
Snowboarding
Ski Jumping (Style Points)

Then come the events where, barring a final event (knockout, pin, etc.), the entire contest is scored by judges:

Boxing
Wrestling
Judo
Taekwando

There are events where judges and officials have more than the usual amount of discretion:

Short-track Speed Skating
I would even argue Baseball and Softball, for role of the plate umpire.

Down the slippery slope to

Soccer
Field Hockey
Ice Hockey
Water Polo

with offsides, penalties, disallowed goals, etc.

The following sports have mostly line and rules calls:

Tennis
Volleyball
Badminton
Table Tennis

I'm not sure where Fencing fits, with all of the lights flashing about. And I have no idea how Equestrian Cross Country is judged.

The few sports where the officials are there to disqualify and measure, and sometimes not even measure:

Track and Field
Speed Skating
Alpine Skiing
Cross Country Skiing
Shooting
Archery
Swimming
Canoeing
Kayaking
Sailing
Luge
Skeleton
Bobsledding
Cycling (Road and Track)
Weightlifting
Equestrian Jumping

The last two categories would make the Olympics rather manageable and even affordable.

 

[chuckm]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/20...s/08/24/gymnastics.judging/index.html?cnn=yes

I disagree w/some of what swift says about the level of gymnastics not improving, but he disparages fellow reporters pretty soundly for their reporting

No, not for their reporting---for their suggesting that Hamm give up his medal. That isn't reporting, it's editorializing.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

If the whole story about the Koreans reporting an error on the SV during the competitio is true, this is not exactly subjectivity on the part of the Koreans, but ineptness on the part of the first panel. If it is not trues, well.... that's another story.

From what I understand from a good source is that the Gynastics Officials have really worked for some time ridding as much as possible subjectivity in scoring.

Joe.

 

[TNT2012]

I read several articles online today that quoted the Canadian Delegation's disbelief and anger that their attempt to protest the results of the Vault event final right after the scores were posted were rudely dismissed. A Canadian gymnast finished fourth in that event. They stated that the Romanian chairman judge refused to even read or acknowledge their protest. And it also appears that the Bulgarians are also protesting the scores from the Rings event final. And I guess the Russians did not want to be outdone by the other countries for they have also file a protest, claiming that their gymnasts have been unfairly targeted with undeserved low scores throughout the competition! If I wasn't a gymnastics fan, I would be laughing right now how quickly the gymnastic competition had turn into a something practically out of a Stephen King novel.

I wonder if gymnastics will survive unscathed from Athens and this swirl of controversy that seemingly won't end. And yet, the ultimate victims in all of this are the atheletes themselves. Should we not have heard more about Canada's first gymnastic medal ever, and that it was a GOLD medal to boot? And how about the gold medalist of the women's uneven bars? - no, it wasn't Svetlana Khornina? Were any of us able to catch the glimpse of the winner, a virtual unknown from France, who was overcome with emotions when she realized she has won the gold medal? There would have been so many beautiful stories that we could have been shown, but instead we are bombarded by controversy and force to watch it even though WE were not involve in it. You know what, I've decided that if anybody's to blame, let's blame the MEDIA. I'm just so mad that we were cheated out of the whole experience and the atheletes out of their once in a lifetime chance to bask in the spotlight.

 

[mpal2]

Mathman,

I know how you feel. I was really happy about the Olympics starting up and now I'm just fed up. The major events left that will be shown for the US are track and field and that brings up the doping scandals.

I don't even have Ian Thorpe to drool over anymore.

I just wish we could get more coverage on positive Olympic experiences instead of focusing on the bad. I want to see sportsmanship!

 

[Vash01]

To put things in perspective, there are a few athletes at the top that are experiencing the stress of these debates. However, if you look at how many athletes are participating and living their life long dream to go to the Olympics, the percentage of athletes having a good time is much higher than the few at the top that give importance to medals (or the color of medals shall we say?). Of course the media will cover the small percentage because that's a story that sells.

I blame this on SLC. There were grumblings of injustice in subjective sports in particular, long before 2002. However, the duplicate gold medal in SLC just encouraged many to protest every result. I am not saying the Korean does not have a case, but I don't remember hearing so many protests and discussions about a disputable result in the past.

 

[hockeyfan228]

I don't think there is any problem with protests, especially those that fall within the guidelines. If people take a superficial attitude toward SLC, they won't make the distinction between a contest in which an official admitted to pressure during a post-event referees meeting in front of all eight of her fellow judges, regardless of how she recanted later, and those for judging errors or differences of opinion. Since few of these protests have been/will be successful, they might learn to make this distinction.

 

[Mathman]

Well, according to this article, this is the gymnasts' take: OK, maybe gymnastics has a little problem, but thank goodness it's not as bad as figure skating!

http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/sports/article.adp?id=20040825111209990001

Some highlights:

"The bedlam over the judging of the Athens Olympics gymnastics competition has U.S. gymnast Blaine Wilson feeling like he's fallen off the pommel horse onto a hard sheet of ice. "It's figure skating," he says. "Gymnastics has become figure skating."

"In the first Olympics after the figure skating furor of Salt Lake City, the discord, especially in gymnastics, has observers suggesting International Olympic Committee President Jacques Rogge opened a Pandora's box when he awarded duplicate gold medals to Canadian pairs figure skaters Jamie Sale and David Pelletier two years ago. "I said to myself, 'If he does that, it will come up again,' " Olympic historian John Lucas says. "And sure enough, here we are."...

"The larger question looming is what the climate in Athens says about the IOC's decision of two years ago and about prospects for peace and quiet at future Games...."

"The problem might be that Olympic delegates no longer seem willing to address perceived injustices in a quiet manner, hoping to whip up the kind of media and public frenzy that left the IOC little choice but to intervene in Salt Lake City..."

"Insiders say that while gymnastics was dealt a black eye in Athens, it doesn't need nearly the makeover figure skating did. "The system isn't broken, it got abused," former Olympian Bart Conner says."

Mathman

 

[mzheng]

Not sure if this link has been posted in this thread.

http://www.intlgymnast.com/events/2004/olympics/news_korea.html

Looks like the US referee indeed had a hand in the mess.

"
We saw the score of 9.712, but we were unable to see the Start Value because it was very small and a camera was blocking the view. Then we were able to see a 9-point-something... As we moved to high bar, we noticed that the Start Value was 9.9 and we were very shocked. We knew that it was not correct and that there must have been some mistake. We found out that Kim Dong Min, a Korean judge on the B-Panel for parallel bars, went to George Beckstead, the FIG Head Judge on the parallel bars. Kim registered a complaint asking why the Start Value was 9.9 when the routine was obviously a 10.0. Mr. Beckstead replied that the 9.9 was correct and ended the conversation with Kim.

After the high bar, judge Kim came to Yoo and told her that the judgment on the Start Value was wrong. Then Yoo rushed to find the A-panel judges. She asked 'Why is it 9.9?' While she was writing the objection, the two judges opened their notes from the competition. Upon discussing the Yang's routine, they suddenly realized that they had made a mistake. Near the end of Yang's routine when he did the giant tuck double back (Belle) which is an E move, they incorrectly gave him credit for a tuck double back from support (Morisue) which is only a D move. The judges immediately admitted their error, and advised Yoo to quickly go to the technical chairman and apply for a written form for a correction. Other coaches were present when the two judges admitted that they had made a mistake.

We were looking for the technical chairman when we saw Istvan Karacsony (member of the FIG men's technical committee who supervises the pommel horse event.) We told him what had happened, and he also encouraged us to immediately write an application for correction and give it to Technical Chairman Adrian Stoica, President of the FIG Men's technical committee. Then, we rushed to find Mr. Stoica who also told us to write an official application for correction and they will do an analysis one day after. He told us that after we had prepared the document to please fax it to his hotel, and he gave us his number. Then we went back to the Olympic Village and prepared the document and faxed it to Mr. Stoica at around midnight.
"

 

[Vash01]

I think this has been posted somewhere, but I can't remember where. Thanks for reposting however.

 

[Rgirl]

The never-ending frustration of trying to apply an exact science--mathematics, ie, statistics--to the forever inexact behavior of human beings.
The Infinitely Inexact Rgirl

 

[KwanFan1212]

Umm, the USOC was fine with the thought of a duplicate gold if it meant that this issue would be put to rest sooner rather than later, but after the FIG decided to ask Paul this weekend in an absurd letter to just give back the medal 'in the spirit of good sportsmanship', they took that idea off the table. It was the FIG who had a problem with the two gold thing, not the USA. The fact that they even SENT that letter just appalls me to no end. There are a few articles on Yahoo's Olys site as well as a few at NBCOlympics.com about this issue. Brother.

Paul, I am SOOO happy you came home to the USA early!!!!!