Hanyu's skating edges | Page 7 | Golden Skate

Hanyu's skating edges

I had never counted them. thanks for the info.

Oh, but I'm so glad that you pointed it out though!! :agree2:
Because judges do not count them like I did, right? So it's obvious that Mura needs to do something about it, if people are often getting that kind of impressions, regardless of the actual numbers of crossovers!

Yeah, maybe it is those "interesting" costumes, after all... lol. :dev3:
 
Yes, the costumes. Some think Yuzu's costumes are extreme, Mura is the clear winner of the Team Japan strange shirt contest for both 2015 and 2016.
I may love him for it, but judges may think otherwise.

Mura is my ultimate proof that for Japanese men costume is serious thing. You don't just do half-a$$ed work, you let your mind go for it. It's a cultural thing. (I honestly love his costumes as much as Yuzuru's.)
 
Thank you Geek On Ice and Interspectator!:thank:

I think a simple graphic might illustrate the point. If 2 triangles are drawn, one with a lower apex and one with a higher apex, it becomes obvious that if the apex is tilted at the same Angle/Edge, the taller triangle is displaced more than the lower triangle to achieve the same angle of the edge. So Yuzu might have to lean more to achieve the same edge angle compared to Mura.

Therefore it is much harder for the beanpole skaters to maintain deep edges, and I don't hold it against them.

I believe the reverse occurs for jumps - a higher center of gravity makes it easier to take off into the air and a narrower bodice ratio spins faster to achieve the requisite rotations.

Of course there will be exceptions, and it's fantastic to see skaters achieving excellence in both.

My greatest wish is for an Artistic Podium, where those who do not make it because of BV deficits in jumps can medal, eg Jason, Mura, etc.

I hope I don't come across as an anti-Shoma, but I do hold GP Gold Medalists to a higher standard, and to me Mura did much more artistically especially in the FS and deserves higher PCS.

As for Mura, he has the SS and he is very musical, but his programs failed to maximize his SS and his jumps have been inconsistent in the past. His costumes were also variations of shredded greys, not a good look on the ice.

This season though, his stsq were an eye-opener!:love:

I hope that Charlie White can continue to help him in those two aspects, like Lori did for Jin, and we get to see a made-over Mura.
 
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A Canadian former skater who has been to Skate Canada many times said:
How can they say Hanyu's edges are not deep? He has such beautiful edge control and rarely skates on a flat edge. That's what I see.
Hanyu skates the program the same way in practice as in competition live. The edges are very obvious to me. The "only" time when I don't see solid deep edges is when he isn't having a good skate, but then everything is off. But Hanyu's quality of edge is still decent even when he doesn't have energy in his programs.
I am wondering what they are watching to make this statement? Video? Video is not the best. You can't even see the true speed on video.
Patrick Chan's edge is more noticeable on video because he almost has a growl to them. Growl like a bear. Grinding noise from the blade cutting the ice.
Hanyu's deep edge is light and airy but deep. He has the sound sometimes from his blades but not always. Hanyu's speed when you see him live is what blows me away. His control at top speed is amazing!]
 
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lol this thread has been thoroughly hijacked. If OP's goal was to provoke Hanyu fans, well done.

A lot of Yuzu's skating is great (speed, ice coverage, etc) but the quality of his edges can be inconsistent. I think stamina is still his problem, as most of his subpar SS moments come (intermittently) in the freeskate when he's more likely to run out of steam.

Case in point, his stsq at NHK https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBDfbHF0dyk&feature=youtu.be&t=122

Notice things get particularly flat and scratchy when he's doing his turns. Most skaters do that, but I guess we expect better from the top Japanese man.

A Canadian former skater who has been to Skate Canada many times said:

A good time to remind people that more speed =/= good skating skills. I'd like to meet this former skater you're quoting. Defending Hanyu as a quality skater is one thing but his/her description of Chan's skating is hard to believe. 'Growling' is not a word I would use to describe those edges (by far the smoothest of all the current men).
 
"Growling" is a positive description of edges that carve deeply into the ice and make a sound that sounds like a growl.

Scratchy sounds are bad, scrapy or skiddy sounds usually bad.

It's easier to hear these sounds live. On video it may be impossible to hear them at all depending where the microphones are placed and how the sound technicians balance input from different sources, including music and commentary if applicable.
 
"Growling" is a positive description of edges that carve deeply into the ice and make a sound that sounds like a growl.

Scratchy sounds are bad, scrapy or skiddy sounds usually bad.

It's easier to hear these sounds live. On video it may be impossible to hear them at all depending where the microphones are placed and how the sound technicians balance input from different sources, including music and commentary if applicable.

I have never heard this term before and leave it to Gkelly to educate us once more.

And Begin, I am a Hanyu fan and you said what I did. The skating skills and all else go sloppy when he is exhausted. His sp is wonderful and I have no doubt by worlds he will have more stamina to get through the free skate. I love it when he is feeling strong as we see some really fantastic skating. One of my favorite US skaters was Sasha and Sasha was often accused of shallow edges but some of her move really required it. As for Ashley, why throw shade at her? Just because I like her? I don't know a skate fan that doesn't enjoy Ashley even if she urs her jumps. I realize that this is important to score but it does not bother me if a skater has ur issues when they are so special in other ways. I don't speak Russian but it is nice to hear their commentators get excited about Ashley. You can hear it. Also, there are a lot of people who want to see slower more controlled step sequences come back to the sport.

Does every skate need to be one speed i.e. Overdrive? And as for more feathers more bling more allusion fabric? Um please no. Leave that to the ice dancers and the ladies. It can be just too distracting and I think judges do score lower if they are offended by a costume. I am not sure exactly where but costumes are clearly very important to the sport.

OT I think Mirai looked so beautiful and both her dresses were perfection. I thought she performed well and she seems to always like being in Japan. While I appreciate Mura I think his grey shredded top was just dreadful. But I kind of like the man buns. At any rate he can carry that off.
 
While I appreciate Mura I think his grey shredded top was just dreadful. But I kind of like the man buns. At any rate he can carry that off.

Ahhh. Actually that man bun is gone! He cut it off... but believe me he's still sexy!! :love:

Yes, that grey shredded mess... even as a huge fan... I almost wanted to write to him begging to throw it away!! :shock2:
 
Here are some good videos (by ice dancers) explaining deep edges, targeted toward advanced beginners:

forward outside
forward inside
backward outside
backward inside

Most of the time they don't make much sound with their blades, but you can hear the good growl sound occasionally, for instance here and here

Thank you again, for your very informative post!!
Agh... I wish I could skate like that... More and more practice for me!

I love that sound... :luv17:
Some people said good skaters have a sound similar to stepping onto new snow. Again, I wish I can have sound like that when I skate!! :bang:
 
"Growling" is a positive description of edges that carve deeply into the ice and make a sound that sounds like a growl.

Scratchy sounds are bad, scrapy or skiddy sounds usually bad.

It's easier to hear these sounds live. On video it may be impossible to hear them at all depending where the microphones are placed and how the sound technicians balance input from different sources, including music and commentary if applicable.

Last year, when Yuzu was describing Patrick in a TV fluff-piece he specifically mentioned the growl of his skates. (as a good thing, of course.)
And as for Yuzu's skating, Kurt Browning said when watching him that it's hard to pin down, that he could 'understand' Patrick's skating, but that the way Yuzu generated speed seemingly effortlessly was like magic. -or something like that.
 
Last year, when Yuzu was describing Patrick in a TV fluff-piece he specifically mentioned the growl of his skates. (as a good thing, of course.)
And as for Yuzu's skating, Kurt Browning said when watching him that it's hard to pin down, that he could 'understand' Patrick's skating, but that the way Yuzu generated speed seemingly effortlessly was like magic. -or something like that.

I totally remember that!! My skating teacher said similar things too. Yuzuru certainly has his own unique skating style!! :agree2:
 
When I first started watching elite skating live, I described some of the skaters of moving "as if the ice were melting away beneath their feet." There were a few intermediate-junior skaters at my then rink who had a similar quality. Quiet and effortless acceleration. It can seem like magic.
 
lol this thread has been thoroughly hijacked. If OP's goal was to provoke Hanyu fans, well done.
A lot of Yuzu's skating is great (speed, ice coverage, etc) but the quality of his edges can be inconsistent. I think stamina is still his problem, as most of his subpar SS moments come (intermittently) in the freeskate when he's more likely to run out of steam.
Case in point, his stsq at NHK https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBDfbHF0dyk&feature=youtu.be&t=122
Notice things get particularly flat and scratchy when he's doing his turns. Most skaters do that, but I guess we expect better from the top Japanese man.
A good time to remind people that more speed =/= good skating skills. I'd like to meet this former skater you're quoting. Defending Hanyu as a quality skater is one thing but his/her description of Chan's skating is hard to believe. 'Growling' is not a word I would use to describe those edges (by far the smoothest of all the current men).
She is Mr. Chan's fan and what she said was very positive. I guess you don't understand that sound means very good. Again, she is an ex skater who has been to Skate Canada every year. If she can not say anything good she would not have said it. The skater she can not stand is Mr. Fernandez. If you want to listen to her rant about how slow and labour Mr. Fernandez is, I can quote her.

As for Mr. Hanyu, the step sequence was upgraded but it is still unfinished. I think the main reason come from his focuses on the jumps as he said in the interview. I still see deep edge in the difficult turns when he's on point. He simply needs more time to master 4 quads in the free skate, that is all.
 
lol this thread has been thoroughly hijacked. If OP's goal was to provoke Hanyu fans, well done.

A lot of Yuzu's skating is great (speed, ice coverage, etc) but the quality of his edges can be inconsistent. I think stamina is still his problem, as most of his subpar SS moments come (intermittently) in the freeskate when he's more likely to run out of steam.

Case in point, his stsq at NHK https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBDfbHF0dyk&feature=youtu.be&t=122

Notice things get particularly flat and scratchy when he's doing his turns. Most skaters do that, but I guess we expect better from the top Japanese man.



A good time to remind people that more speed =/= good skating skills. I'd like to meet this former skater you're quoting. Defending Hanyu as a quality skater is one thing but his/her description of Chan's skating is hard to believe. 'Growling' is not a word I would use to describe those edges (by far the smoothest of all the current men).
Adding to gkelly's discussion, as I've understood it, noisy edges as in growling edges seem to be due to the depth, speed, and carve of the blade during turns. It's a very different sound than noisy edges as in scratchy because of lack of run of the blade, toe picks, etc. I think it's from the precise shifting of a heavy, concentrated weight that produces that growling sound, I'm thinking someone like Alexander Abt. On the other hand, I think a skater like Kozuka who also had some of the best basics of his time, is not what I would consider a "growling" skater, his edges are very gentle and quiet.

It seemed like in the NHK FS, the rink was annoyingly mic'ed up quite heavily in some spots. It reminds me of Mao's Skate America SP from 2006, in which the edges are so loud that it incorrectly gives the impression that her skating skills are noisy and imprecise. Dick Button even remarks that Mao is so "friendly to the ice, you just never hear her skates move" when you can hear every single stroke all the way throughout the video :laugh: If a skater like Patrick has skates that growl, maybe Hanyu has skates that purr? I don't see his step sequence as flat and scratchy, I see good rhythmic knee action and efficient acceleration from absolute stops with minimal crossovers, gaining speed through his turns, which is harder and more energy-demanding than having momentum to start with. He has pretty obvious inside and outside edges in my opinion.

More speed doesn't necessarily always mean good skating skills, but it's oftentimes a good indicator of it. It's the ability to control that speed through different turns, and the ability to accelerate/decelerate effortlessly, which implies the mastery of edges such that one can control their speed. Every case is different.
 
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"Growling" is a positive description of edges that carve deeply into the ice and make a sound that sounds like a growl.

Scratchy sounds are bad, scrapy or skiddy sounds usually bad.

It's easier to hear these sounds live. On video it may be impossible to hear them at all depending where the microphones are placed and how the sound technicians balance input from different sources, including music and commentary if applicable.
Yes, the sound of the blade is very obvious live. People who don't go to ice rink often might not understand this. Mr. Chan's skating has a very strong sound. It does not mean a bad thing. Some people just need to go to the ice rink more often.
Mr. Hanyu's edge has a very crispy sound. It is quiet and neat and easy to the ear.
They simply have very different skating style and both are superior to the rest of the field.
Again this kind of description is something you notice visibly when you sit in the first row. People who sit too far up in the arena might not notice this. I often stay at the ice level though.
 
Adding to gkelly's discussion, as I've understood it, noisy edges as in growling edges seem to be due to the depth, speed, and carve of the blade during turns. It's a very different sound than noisy edges as in scratchy because of lack of run of the blade, toe picks, etc. I think it's from the precise shifting of a heavy, concentrated weight that produces that growling sound, I'm thinking someone like Alexander Abt. On the other hand, I think a skater like Kozuka who also had some of the best basics of his time, is not what I would consider a "growling" skater, his edges are very gentle and quiet.

It seemed like in the NHK FS, the rink was annoyingly mic'ed up quite heavily in some spots. It reminds me of Mao's Skate America SP from 2006, in which the edges are so loud that it incorrectly gives the impression that her skating skills are noisy and imprecise. Dick Button even remarks that Mao is so "friendly to the ice, you just never hear her skates move" when you can hear every single stroke all the way throughout the video :laugh: If a skater like Patrick has skates that growl, maybe Hanyu has skates that purr? I don't see his step sequence as flat and scratchy, I see good rhythmic knee action and efficient acceleration from absolute stops with minimal crossovers, gaining speed through his turns, which is harder and more energy-demanding than having momentum to start with. He has pretty obvious inside and outside edges in my opinion.

More speed doesn't necessarily always mean good skating skills, but it's oftentimes a good indicator of it. It's the ability to control that speed through different turns, and the ability to accelerate/decelerate effortlessly, which implies the mastery of edges such that one can control their speed. Every case is different.

My point is speed is not the whole the equation.

I'm not basing any of my judgement on Hanyu's edges on the audio of the video. His two sequences of turns were mostly done on straight edges in a shaky, 'scratchy' manner. I'm not saying his SS is always bad. It's just that he has showings (like in the case of last weekend) where his edge quality or stsq are sub par.

I've seee Hanyu live exactly 3 times now and I agree, he is not a noisy skater by any means. However, I don't know if I attribute that to the precision of his blade. I think he's quiet in the same way Medvedva is quiet--by being so physically slim and weightless that they're literally light on the ice.
 
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My point is speed is not the whole the equation.

I'm not basing any of my judgement on Hanyu's edges on the audio of the video. His two sequences of turns were mostly done on straight edges in a shaky, 'scratchy' manner. I'm not saying his SS is always bad. It's just that he has showings (like in the case of last weekend) where his edge quality or stsq are sub par.

Yes it is really the fatigue because his edges are very good when he is skating with good stamina. I recal that Shae Lynne Bourne said he was "alien" as if to say no one understands how he does what he does. He can be so amazing. He is very sweet too. When he is flying and centered he truly is majical. I hope the GPF is a great event for the men.
 
My point is speed is not the whole the equation.

I'm not basing any of my judgement on Hanyu's edges on the audio of the video. His two sequences of turns were mostly done on straight edges in a shaky, 'scratchy' manner. I'm not saying his SS is always bad. It's just that he has showings (like in the case of last weekend) where his edge quality or stsq are sub par.
Usually scratchy refers to the sound, so apologies if that's not what you meant. Which parts in particular were shaky to you? He did lose his balance on the twizzle sequence in his cluster of footwork which disrupted him, but the rest is well controlled. I see that he's making multiple choreographic stops in his footwork, so it's harder to accelerate to get the momentum to really get super deep into his edges and control them, but I still see clear and clean inside/outside edges. Flat or straight edges to me implies lack of clarity of edge and calling his skating skills bad or sub par is in my opinion untrue. Perhaps we're having a difference in perception based on camera angles.

In Hanyu's case which it seems like you're disputing, speed isn't gained through excessive crossovers, backpumping, or avoidance of difficult footwork, so I'm not sure how it comes into play in this discussion? Unless if you're just making a general statement, in which case I agree.
 
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