Has CoP Destroyed Asada?

[Bennett]

Poor jumping technique has destroyed Mao and not COP. Those with good basic jump technique are now getting credit for their years of correcting technical flaws/ Good techique to begin with. Ex Joannie Rochette's Lutz. She still has time as she has other amazing qualities.

True. Her jumps are still amazing in many ways though. Before the changes, the judges focused on the good qualities in her Lz and 3-3 despite the edge error and slight URs. But nowadays, they focus on the edge error and URs, which diminish a positive evaluation on the good qualities. Neither evaluation seems totally fair.

 

[janetfan]

True. Her jumps are still amazing in many ways though. Before the changes, the judges focused on the good qualities in her Lz and 3-3 despite the edge error and slight URs. But nowadays, they focus on the edge error and URs, which diminish a positive evaluation on the good qualities. Neither evaluation seems totally fair.

That is sort of what I was getting at.
I am not so sure if downgrading jumps using hi-def instant replay is so good for the sport.

In my previous post I think I erraneously said that Yuna's pressure may be different than Mao's. Maybe I was wrong. Both girls are under tremendous pressure from their fans to do well.

Thinking of Yuna's recent problems with her 3Flip leads me to wonder if this will bother and effect her jumps straight through to Vancouver.

Yuna, imo has a beautiful 3F. Apparently a flaw that judges and fans can't see has been noticed using hi-def instant replay. There has been talk about this effecting Yuna's confidence.

I wonder if we were to go back and put all of Michelle's and Irina's jumps under a slow-mo hi-def cam what would be revealed?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

As so often happens in replys to a topic, if the writer unwittingly mentions something as an aside, other writers will pick that up and we now have changed the topic.

The music is a Prelude and not a concerto, amen to end that. I still consider her music as the problem, and her presentation suffers from it as well as her technical.

IMHO, she needs a new program and definitely new music. She is a fantastic skater and should not be using music, fit for a funteral, she doesn't feel. It takes its toll.

 

[janetfan]

As so often happens in replys to a topic, if the writer unwittingly mentions something as an aside, other writers will pick that up and we now have changed the topic.

The music is a Prelude and not a concerto, amen to end that. I still consider her music as the problem, and her presentation suffers from it as well as her technical.

IMHO, she needs a new program and definitely new music. She is a fantastic skater and should not be using music, fit for a funteral, she doesn't feel. It takes its toll.

So you contend that Mao could land her two 3A'a and other jumps more consistently if only her music was more cheerful and fit her personality or former lighter skating style better?

I am not disagreeing with you - but not sure if I can agree either.

 

[antmanb]

I wonder if we were to go back and put all of Michelle's and Irina's jumps under a slow-mo hi-def cam what would be revealed?

That Irina's 3/3loop combinations were rarely if ever fully rotated - especially the first ever 3Lz/3Lp at the GPF - that nearly landed forward!

I do agree though - the level of scrutiny going in to these jumps is sure to rock the skaters confidence and it can be a vicious circle with this kind of thing.

The flip side to that is - so what? They're athletes who are executing jumps with flawed technique, surely they should be striving for good technique, not looking for ways to be babied through the competitions?

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

So you contend that Mao could land her two 3A'a and other jumps more consistently if only her music was more cheerful and fit her personality or former lighter skating style better?

I am not disagreeing with you - but not sure if I can agree either.

No problem. You don't know the psyche of a skater standing alone on the ice in front of 9 judges and endless officials plus the enormous crowds waiting for the moment to begin. Sasha Cohen said about her opening jump at 2006 Olys that she could hardly feel her feet at that moment. I can tell whether Joubert will skate well or poorly by watching his initial moves. But one has to be or to have been a competitive skater to understand that. Everyone is nervous.

I am also a firm believer in the skating order affecting the competition. Had Irina skated before Sasha and skated the same as what we saw in the comp, Sasha would have skated totally cleann, and forced Shizuka to put in the 3x3.

Mao, alone on the ice, anticipating YuNa's upbeat music and she with the funeral march does have a psyche affect. Maybe Rachael will skate her best in Vancouver and throw them off.

 

[janetfan]

That Irina's 3/3loop combinations were rarely if ever fully rotated - especially the first ever 3Lz/3Lp at the GPF - that nearly landed forward!

I do agree though - the level of scrutiny going in to these jumps is sure to rock the skaters confidence and it can be a vicious circle with this kind of thing.

The flip side to that is - so what? They're athletes who are executing jumps with flawed technique, surely they should be striving for good technique, not looking for ways to be babied through the competitions?

Ant

Good points - but I don't know if eliminating hi-def instant replay to find flaws not visible to the human eye in real-time could necessarily be considered the same as babying today's skaters.

The alternative is that this year's OGM winner may win with three "ratified" triples while skating a less than pleasing and perhaps a somewhat neurotic looking program.
I fail to see how such skating is in the best interests of a sport with a diminishing fan base in certain geographic areas.


Maybe you are right and it is not as important as being technically correct - even for "alleged" mistakes not visible or shown back to fans or even the judges.

Perhaps there is a happy medium?

 

[janetfan]

Mao, alone on the ice, anticipating YuNa's upbeat music and she with the funeral march does have a psyche affect. Maybe Rachael will skate her best in Vancouver and throw them off.

A couple of problems - first you are assuming Mao will skate before Yuna and that has no basis in fact at this time.

Second, you are also trying to claim you know how Mao feels about her music. Every comment I have read from mao says she loves her music and programs and is not changing them. (I am not so sure if I believe her )

We have been through the "experience as a performer" thing before.
I have played music in front of some pretty big crowds in my time. Worse than that though was auditioning before a panel of judges that were amongst the finest musicians in the world. Skaters perform in front of judges that are not fit to lace their skates from a technique point.

How would like like to have first chair players from a major symphony orchestra judging you? As a flutist, I can tell you that I struggled with breathing technique and couldn't recognize the sound of the notes I was playing until my nerves subsided.

I don't think you made your case - but I still am not sure if I disagree with you.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

^^^

I'm assuming nothing.

I believe the ISU sets up the Order-of-Skate according to its Worlds Standing for the SP. If my belief is correct, then YuNa will follow Mao. No?

I also believe there is more factors in determining a skater's-on-and-off-days.
Illness, injuries, unliked music, difficult routine, etc. etc. It's not just about 3As and 3x3s which Mao can do and YuNa is limited to one of them. It's the total sum of the points which are important.

One might consider: is the choreography getting in the way of perfection? Is the music so dull that the skater is not living up to her potential.

It is the latter of the two that I believe is to be considered in Mao's case. JMO

 

[janetfan]

^^^

I'm assuming nothing.

I believe the ISU sets up the Order-of-Skate according to its Worlds Standing for the SP. If my belief is correct, then YuNa will follow Mao. No?

I also believe there is more factors in determining a skater's-on-and-off-days.
Illness, injuries, unliked music, difficult routine, etc. etc. It's not just about 3As and 3x3s which Mao can do and YuNa is limited to one of them. It's the total sum of the points which are important.

One might consider: is the choreography getting in the way of perfection? Is the music so dull that the skater is not living up to her potential.

It is the latter of the two that I believe is to be considered in Mao's case. JMO

OK - those are better points - and I don't like Mao's music so much either.

The LP is what I thought you were referring to as it's music does seem to be what will meet those destined for the gates of hell

And isn't the LP skating order determined by a draw?

Does this mean Caro will skate her SP last as she is the current #1 Lady?

 

[silverlake22]

I think Mao should abandon the triple axel...or attempt it ONCE in a competition, not 3-4 times like she has been trying to recently. She can do 3-3 combos and her spirals are good, she has high PCS, she does not need the triple axel. I mean no one else will even attempt one. Kimmie did years ago but I don't think she can do one anymore/I don't know if she is even skating anymore because she's hurt. A triple axel is a jump for guys, and Mao is a very petite female who recently does not appear to have the height or strength to pull off the jump. If she just let the triple axel go and focus on the rest of her program rather than be bothered by it I'm sure she could probably win silver at the Olympics behind Yu Na :yes:

 

[Kwanford Wife]

That Irina's 3/3loop combinations were rarely if ever fully rotated - especially the first ever 3Lz/3Lp at the GPF - that nearly landed forward!

I do agree though - the level of scrutiny going in to these jumps is sure to rock the skaters confidence and it can be a vicious circle with this kind of thing.

The flip side to that is - so what? They're athletes who are executing jumps with flawed technique, surely they should be striving for good technique, not looking for ways to be babied through the competitions?

Ant

True dat... on all points.

The alternative is that this year's OGM winner may win with three "ratified" triples while skating a less than pleasing and perhaps a somewhat neurotic looking program.

I fail to see how such skating is in the best interests of a sport with a diminishing fan base in certain geographic areas.

If this happens and there is another skater with a clean, six triple program with UR jumps I will be very afraid for the future of this sport...

OK - those are better points - and I don't like Mao's music so much either.

The LP is what I thought you were referring to as it's music does seem to be what will meet those destined for the gates of hell

That music is depressing, isn't it?

I think Mao should abandon the triple axel...or attempt it ONCE in a competition, not 3-4 times like she has been trying to recently. She can do 3-3 combos and her spirals are good, she has high PCS, she does not need the triple axel. I mean no one else will even attempt one. Kimmie did years ago but I don't think she can do one anymore/I don't know if she is even skating anymore because she's hurt. A triple axel is a jump for guys, and Mao is a very petite female who recently does not appear to have the height or strength to pull off the jump. If she just let the triple axel go and focus on the rest of her program rather than be bothered by it I'm sure she could probably win silver at the Olympics behind Yu Na :yes:

I disagree with most of this... first - Mao should do a 3axle - because she can. but she should only do one and it should be in the short program. She should also do a 3x3 in the long to replace the 2 axles...and if she does them clean - well probably win the silver moves into I'd be shocked if she didn't win gold... a clean program alone will win her the gold...but she's gotta be clean.

My prediction for the ladies of vancouver is simple: be clean. watching the gp series has made me into a believer regarding this particular gold medal - three of the four top skaters in the world will make serious mistakes. whoever keeps their head in the game and skaters her program cleanly will win.

(yes, its an obvious point - but for some reason the GP series has given me hope that whoever steps on the top step will not have a spec of ice on their bottom... this WILL NOT be Worlds '08)

 

[silverlake22]

Mao should do a 3axle - because she can. but she should only do one and it should be in the short program. She should also do a 3x3 in the long to replace the 2 axles...and if she does them clean - well probably win the silver moves into I'd be shocked if she didn't win gold... a clean program alone will win her the gold...but she's gotta be clean.

My prediction for the ladies of vancouver is simple: be clean. watching the gp series has made me into a believer regarding this particular gold medal - three of the four top skaters in the world will make serious mistakes. whoever keeps their head in the game and skaters her program cleanly will win.

Mao with a triple axel hasn't beaten Yu Na in years. I think Yu Na is far superior to Mao and the only way Mao could win is if Yu Na has a meltdown. Yu Na is way better than all the other skaters-Mao included-when she skates well. The only reason Tarasova is pushing so hard for Mao to do as many 3axels as possible is because she knows Mao can't beat a good Yu Na without it. Yu Na is the queen , I will be shocked if she doesn't win OGM

 

[Mathman]

Mao with a triple axel hasn't beaten Yu Na in years.

2008-09 Grand Prix Final?

 

[Kwanford Wife]

Mao with a triple axel hasn't beaten Yu Na in years. I think Yu Na is far superior to Mao and the only way Mao could win is if Yu Na has a meltdown. Yu Na is way better than all the other skaters-Mao included-when she skates well. The only reason Tarasova is pushing so hard for Mao to do as many 3axels as possible is because she knows Mao can't beat a good Yu Na without it. Yu Na is the queen , I will be shocked if she doesn't win OGM

What MM said and I'd also like to add that whenever Yuna has beaten Mao - Mao hasn't been clean... Also in a head to head, clean jumping bean vs. clean jumping bean contest - I think the Battle of the Federations / Battle of the Coach as Icon contest will tilt the final results Mao's way... (hey, let's stop a second and be honest about the part politics plays in this game) But just small points.

As for the "Yuna is way better...I'll be shocked..." comment - please remember you are speaking to a Kwan fan and I've had to eat those words twice. All we ubers can do is attempt a subjective front while praying to those evil skate gods who have a way of forcing our favs to suffer for our arrogant fandom...

(eating chicken and junior mints sometimes helps though...sigh)

 

[Mathman]

IMHO, she needs a new program and definitely new music. She is a fantastic skater and should not be using music, fit for a funteral, she doesn't feel. It takes its toll.

I agree. Plus, there is the audience factor. With music that is either lyrical or ta-da! the audience can get into the picture and give the skater an extra shot of adrenaline or confidence. I think this is especially important if the skater makes an early mistake.

 

[silverlake22]

I agree. Plus, there is the audience factor. With music that is either lyrical or ta-da! the audience can get into the picture and give the skater an extra shot of adrenaline or confidence. I think this is especially important if the skater makes an early mistake.

Yeah, new programs would definitely do her some good. And I realize Mao has beaten Yu Na a lot in the past, one example being last year at the GPF but honestly that was to be expected, it was in Korea so Yu Na must have had so many fans crowding and pressuring her, and when she beat her in 2008 and 2007 seasons Yu Na had a bad back injury which affected her skating to some degree at all the competitions. Anyways that's besides the point, they are both amazing. I just feel like Mao and Yu Na have always been seen as the two favorites to win every competition until this year where it seems Yu Na has become "the one to beat" and a left Mao in the dust.

This doesn't have to be the case though because Mao's problems are not with her skating, but with having a coach who lives in Russia while she trains in Japan, having programs that are ill suited to her that fail to show off her strengths, and focusing on the triple axel above all other things when in reality, she should be focusing on everything else and not the triple axel because no one else has one. She is so good that she does not need it. If she wants to try it at the Olympics to try and beat Yu Na, then that makes sense, but putting 3-4 of them in her programs this early in the season seems silly, especially because she has a leg up on all the other skaters apart from Yu Na who she only had to face once this GP season at TEB. I believe she will bounce back in time for the Olympics though

 

[gkelly]

not the triple axel because no one else has one. She is so good that she does not need it. If she wants to try it at the Olympics to try and beat Yu Na, then that makes sense, but putting 3-4 of them in her programs this early in the season seems silly,

She can't put 4 triple axels in two programs.

She can only do a maximum of one in the short program and two in the long.

 

[silverlake22]

Yes and 1 in the short and 2 in the long is 3, which she normally tries for, and then she often does a double axel in the short and one double axel in the long sometimes too. She missed the triple axel in her short at COR, and then she got no points for the double axel she did after it because it was 2 double axels in the short which isn't allowed. If she had done a different triple jump instead she probably could have won the competition...

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

silverlake,when I am talking about new program to new music, I am talking aout the skater not the audience. The skater must be happy with what he/she is doing or it goes down the drain. The music sets up the enjoyment.

Mao may well have gotten to enjoy the Rach Prelude and if so, it will work much better all round.