Has CoP Destroyed Asada?

[Mathman]

About Janet Lynn, to me it sounds like that the issue was with the system then, Janet Lynn was just a glaring example. And the actual issue was the the score in school figures - a.k.a. compulsory - result wasn't really delivered to spectators well.

Everything is politics. hwell:

The real impetus for eliminating figures from international competitions came from the smaller federations. The change was opposed by the figures powerhouses, the U.S.A. and Russia (I'm not sure about Canada?). The point was that the smaller federations could not afford to maintain a nationanwide system of support for young skaters practicing figures hour after hour. With just free skating, a talented youngster could literally jump her way into the spotlight.

In this instance all the little guys successfully ganged up on the big guys and got their way.

 

[prettykeys]

Back to the skaters? Hmpf. Imagine it would still be 6.0. Every idiot can see that Kim's (and Rochette's etc.) jumping technique is far superior to Asada's. But Asada wins every competition with a jump layout like this one: 3A, 3F-3R, 3S, 2A-3T, 3Lz-3R, 2A, 3Lz. 8 Triples, one of them a 3A - plus two 2As. Under 6.0 - I am quite sure that would be her jump layout. Every 2nd Triple of the 3-3s and the 2A-3T is pre/underrotated by more than 1/4 of course. As is the Triple Axel most of the time. And there is a magnificent Flutz towards the end of the program (and Asada's Flutz was great, huge height, great distance, beautiful landing).

Rochette and Kim would never be able to compete with that, both have just ordinary programs compared to that, Kim only 6 Triples, Rochette no 3-3. Yes, it doesn't matter that both have amazing technique, against the wunderkind with those 3-3s and that 3A...

In my opinion the CoP took away some of the magic. Though I never got the magic. The magic was that a fresh-faced baby-lady could appear on ice in a cute pastell dress and skate with such joy and freedom, with so many edge mistakes and underrotations - and become the new darling, Olympic Champion, World Champion! Oh, how pretty and cute she is, how she fought through her jumps and pulled off those 3-3s! Look here, America, look here, World - that's what life should be like, so full of joy, happiness, without any burdens!

Yeah, as I said, never got that part...

You are awesome.

Well, I get enchanted by Mao, too. I think also that a lot of her superior technical qualities in areas that aren't jumps aren't accounted for in CoP.

But with regards to jumps, I don't want to compromise on quality, either. I had enough of that with *ahem* Sarah Hughes.

 

[Tonichelle]

I think it's easy to start crying "CoP" every time something goes wrong in figure skating.

yup; just like the Russian judge was the one to blame in 6.0

 

[gkelly]

The real impetus for eliminating figures from international competitions came from the smaller federations. The change was opposed by the figures powerhouses, the U.S.A. and Russia (I'm not sure about Canada?).

IIRC, at the actual vote in 1988 the federations opposed to eliminating school figures were the US, Canada, Britain, and New Zealand.

USSR voted in favor of elimination. They may have been in favor of keeping them earlier during the campaign to get rid of them, but when it came to the vote they went with the majority.

 

[enlight78]

But I wonder if you can see any of this medusa, or are you one of those people who believes everything they read. We are being TOLD about some of these calls without the benefit of seeing what the officials are seeing. I am glad you are so trusting - I am not and don't like what I can't see and judge for myself.

Your skating world is one of mysterious calls and where reputation means everything and results are hidden from the fans.
Thanks but no thanks, I prefer something more open.

I don't know about medusa but I have witness some of the URs and WEs while watching it live online; and caught some of them on the slow-mo they show during the kiss and cry; there pretty easy to catch in slow-mo; I have heard some commentators question certain skaters jumps also; I can see them on my computer screen pretty well thanks to the close camera angles; proably easier on tv; but can the live audience spot them; i don't know; The errors arent invisible; they may be easier to overlook but that doesn't make less of an error.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Every 2nd Triple of the 3-3s and the 2A-3T is underrotated by more than 1/4 of course. As is the Triple Axel most of the time.

I disagree with this part. Asada has landed completely rotated 3F-3Lo's, 3F-3T's, 2A-3T's, and 3A's many, many times in competition.

Sometimes she comes up a bit short, sure, but Yu-Na Kim would probably underrotate every attempt at the 3F-3Lo and 3A if she tried them in competition.

You can't flat-out say the entire technique of Yu-Na and Rochette is better.

In Yu-Na's case, she struggles with the 3Loop. Even when she lands it, that element does not have the same quality as Mao's.

In Rochette's case, she struggles with the 3-3. Don't forget that a 3-3 certainly requires technique...a technique that Rochette has not been able to master.

 

[bekalc]

I disagree with this part. Asada has landed completely rotated 3F-3Lo's, 3F-3T's, 2A-3T's, and 3A's many, many times in competition.

Sometimes she comes up a bit short, sure, but Yu-Na Kim would probably underrotate every attempt at the 3F-3Lo and 3A if she tried them in competition.

You can't flat-out say the entire technique of Yu-Na and Rochette is better.

In Yu-Na's case, she struggles with the 3Loop. Even when she lands it, that element does not have the same quality as Mao's.

In Rochette's case, she struggles with the 3-3. Don't forget that a 3-3 certainly requires technique...a technique that Rochette has not been able to master.

Mao though rarely does a 3salchow. Has a really bad flutz. Mao's jumping technique from a basic perspective ISN'T as good as let's say Kim's. For example she had a high kick going into her 3flip.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I never said that Yu-Na doesn't have better technique overall. She does.

That shouldn't take away from the things Mao does well, though.

Yu-Na has a better Lutz, Flip, and Toeloop.

Mao has a better 3Axel and 3Loop. She is also able to attain better positions in her Spirals.

That puts them pretty even technically (3 things Yu-Na is better at and 3 things Mao is better at).

Yu-Na should still be considered to have the better technique overall because she's more consistent, and consistency does mean good technique, but if these two skaters are at their best it is pretty even...with a small advantage to Mao because of the special importance the 3Axel holds.

 

[figurejennah]

Back to the skaters? Hmpf. Imagine it would still be 6.0. Every idiot can see that Kim's (and Rochette's etc.) jumping technique is far superior to Asada's. But Asada wins every competition with a jump layout like this one: 3A, 3F-3R, 3S, 2A-3T, 3Lz-3R, 2A, 3Lz. 8 Triples, one of them a 3A - plus two 2As. Under 6.0 - I am quite sure that would be her jump layout. Every 2nd Triple of the 3-3s and the 2A-3T is pre/underrotated by more than 1/4 of course. As is the Triple Axel most of the time. And there is a magnificent Flutz towards the end of the program (and Asada's Flutz was great, huge height, great distance, beautiful landing).

Rochette and Kim would never be able to compete with that, both have just ordinary programs compared to that, Kim only 6 Triples, Rochette no 3-3. Yes, it doesn't matter that both have amazing technique, against the wunderkind with those 3-3s and that 3A...

In my opinion the CoP took away some of the magic. Though I never got the magic. The magic was that a fresh-faced baby-lady could appear on ice in a cute pastell dress and skate with such joy and freedom, with so many edge mistakes and underrotations - and become the new darling, Olympic Champion, World Champion! Oh, how pretty and cute she is, how she fought through her jumps and pulled off those 3-3s! Look here, America, look here, World - that's what life should be like, so full of joy, happiness, without any burdens!

Yeah, as I said, never got that part...

Well said, and agreed 100%.

 

[katha]

I don't think that COP has destroyed Mao. Yes, there are things about the system that need to be worked out, there are aspects of skating that aren't rewarded enough while others are overstressed. But this is a judged sport, I think it's utopian to expect that there will ever be a judging procedure in place that will make everybody happy and be 100 percent accurate. Mostly because what is "accurate" judging is in the eye of the beholder.

Mao is not "destroyed" IMO, she is visibly struggling though. Some of it is the pressure of being the Japanese frontrunner in the ladies division. Just ask Midori Ito how that can affect you. Or Miki Ando for that matter. Then there's of course the IMO not ideal coaching situation with TAT in Russia and Mao apparently not having proper technical supervision. And the flaws in her jumping technique that she could get away with before her growth spurt are now affecting her. And for all her talent she always did have issues there: the flutzing, no complete set of jumps, sometimes underrotating....

Is COP too hard on the skaters when it comes to punishing this stuff? I don't know, sometimes it seems like that to me. But then someone here in this thread rightly said that the men suffer much less from these stricter rules. Probably because they mostly have their technique under control while the women may have been getting ahead of themselves in the quest for 3-3s etc. without learning the proper basics for it. And if COP helps reverse that trend then I'm all for it. As for someone having a seemingly "clean" program at the Olympics only to get downgraded, not win and leave the audience in confusion? I still have vivid memories of German Eurosport commentator Hendryk Schamberger being appalled that Sarah Hughes won the 2002 Olympics with her obviously flawed jumping technique. So not everybody was happy when people were getting away with seemingly "invisible" jump issues...precisely because they are not invisible for more trained eyes. IMO then it becomes the responsibility of the commentators to explain why certain decisions were made.

 

[chaerae]

Back to the skaters? Hmpf.

(Entire Post)

Is COP too hard on the skaters when it comes to punishing this stuff? I don't know, sometimes it seems like that to me. But then someone here in this thread rightly said that the men suffer much less from these stricter rules. Probably because they mostly have their technique under control while the women may have been getting ahead of themselves in the quest for 3-3s etc. without learning the proper basics for it. And if COP helps reverse that trend then I'm all for it.

Agreed. There are going to be growing pains with any new system. As stated before, COP is still new and being tweaked. While the UR penalty appears somewhat excessive right now, I think (hope) it's going to pay dividends down the line when future skaters - taught the basics and correct jump technique, etc - take the stage. It's unfortunate that Mao is caught in the transition period, but the fact of the matter is that all her major competitors are in the same boat. It may no longer be the case come Sochi, but as of now all the podium contenders are undergoing the same transition. Some are struggling while others are thriving, but that's just the way it goes.

I disagree with this part. Asada has landed completely rotated 3F-3Lo's, 3F-3T's, 2A-3T's, and 3A's many, many times in competition.

Last week, I actually calculated Mao's success rate on these jumps because I was so frustrated by her recent struggles and her fixation with the 3A. I wanted to compare the success of her 3A/3A+2T attempts vs. her other 3+3 combos. I must say, I wasn't very encouraged by the results either way...

Basically, I went through the protocols from her ISU competitions beginning with the 2006-07 post-Torino season and compiled the list of all the 3+3s (including 2A+3T) and 3A/combos she's attempted. I should note that the inclusion of her senior debut season would probably raise the numbers/percentages a little.

This was initially intended for my own perusal, so there may be errors in my calculations since I didn't really double check my work! Popped jumps and solo jumps that were clearly aborted combos were included as attempts. I won't post the actual list I compiled (unless anyone's interested) since it'll make for a really long post, but these are the results. Make of it what you will.

As for myself, I expected Mao's success rate with the 3A and 3A combo to be around 50%, so that wasn't a surprise. I was a bit taken aback that the other combos' rates were basically the same. I knew her 3+3s were inconsistent, but that's just... not good.

3A, 3A+2T:
4 3A+2T completed in 10 attempts (40%)
9 3A completed in 16 attempts (56%)
Total: 13 completed in 26 attempts (50%)
9 of the 13 completed received +GOE
8 attempts (31%) were deemed UR
Average GOE for completed jumps: +0.35
Average GOE for all jumps: -0.34

3F+3Lo, 3F+3T, 2A+3T:
11 3F+3Lo completed in 23 attempts (48%)
2 3F+3T completed in 3 attempts (67%)
2 2A+3T completed in 4 attempts (50%)
Total: 15 completed in 30 attempts (50%)
12 of the 15 completed received +GOE
(9 attempts, 30%, were deemed UR)
Average GOE for completed jumps: +0.50
Average GOE for all jumps: -0.39

I don't think Mao's UR issues have actually gotten all that much worse as of late; really, it's been a constant problem since the 07-08 season, when ISU began to really crack down on it.

-------------------------

As a point of reference, here's Yuna:
(Because surely we can't have a thread about Mao without the requisite Yuna comparison! )

2 3Lz+3T completed in 2 attempts (100%)
24 3F+3T completed in 26 attempts (92%)
12 2A+3T completed in 14 attempts (86%)
Total: 38 completed in 42 attempts (90%)
37 of the 38 completed received +GOE
1 attempt (2%) was deemed UR
Average GOE for completed jumps: +1.25
Average GOE for all jumps: +0.92

Yuna's one -GOE on a completed combo came on the "e" she received on her flip combo at CoC last season. It was otherwise landed cleanly - meaning every combo she's completed (38 out of 38) has been fully rotated and landed cleanly. She did also receive 5 "!" marks last season but was awarded +GOE overall. Both of Yuna's failed 2A+3T attempts came in her debut season (06-07), and her failed flip combos were two 3F+1T during the 07-08 GPS. In other words, Yuna has landed her last 23 consecutive ?+3T combos.

I feel like I've just jinxed her now... :think: Skategods, you did not hear me!

 

[bekalc]

I never said that Yu-Na doesn't have better technique overall. She does.

That shouldn't take away from the things Mao does well, though.

Yu-Na has a better Lutz, Flip, and Toeloop.

Mao has a better 3Axel and 3Loop. She is also able to attain better positions in her Spirals.

That puts them pretty even technically (3 things Yu-Na is better at and 3 things Mao is better at).

Yu-Na should still be considered to have the better technique overall because she's more consistent, and consistency does mean good technique, but if these two skaters are at their best it is pretty even...with a small advantage to Mao because of the special importance the 3Axel holds.

You are forgeting to that Kim has a better 3salchow, i.e she can actually do that jump pretty consistently... And she has consistent 3/3s something Asada does not have.

Of course if Mao were to hit her stuff, things would be close. But it doesn't change the fact that while Mao may have a 3 axel, overall her jumping technique is not as good as Kim's or Rochette's.

 

[antmanb]

I never said that Yu-Na doesn't have better technique overall. She does.

That shouldn't take away from the things Mao does well, though.

Yu-Na has a better Lutz, Flip, and Toeloop.

Mao has a better 3Axel and 3Loop. She is also able to attain better positions in her Spirals.

That puts them pretty even technically (3 things Yu-Na is better at and 3 things Mao is better at).

Yu-Na should still be considered to have the better technique overall because she's more consistent, and consistency does mean good technique, but if these two skaters are at their best it is pretty even...with a small advantage to Mao because of the special importance the 3Axel holds.

Come on! Don't make me post about their mums again!!

Seriously though i think you missed the salchow from the list of Kim's assets, together with the double axel (which i think Kim does better than Mao - better lift, height and length). Which makes the score 5 for 3.

The spiral positions i'm not sure really can be that important as one of Mao's downfalls has been actually holding them long enough to count as features so in terms of gettnig the features called, Yuna might not have as good positions but she holds them long enough to get the call.

Any advantage you grant to Mao for the 3 Axel surely has to be negated by the lack of consistency on that jump, and if not can be negated by the consistent 3/3 combos Kim puts in both SP and LP

Where would spins go in terms of which skater does them best? I don't I have a particular opinion on this - maybe they're evenly matched? Maybe Mao gets theslight nod?

I just think it's tiresome to constantly try and compare these skaters. They are different skaters with different strengths and weaknesses.

Right now at this point in the season we're not even talking about the number 1 and 2 skaters because Mao just isn't performing and hasn't really been performing for over a year.

For me, i hope Mao pulls it all together and that both of these skaters together with at least Rochette and Ando manage relatively clean skates and give us what we want for the Olympics - a memroable (in good way not a bad) competition in Vancouver.

Ant

 

[janetfan]

Come one! Don't make me post about their mums again!!

Ant

I would say the "mums" can't be left out of this

Assuming that Yuna's mum chose Orser/Wilson and Mao's mum chose Tat, it seems in the CoP era Yuna's mum made the wiser decision. :yes:

 

[bekalc]

Not to mention Kim has better speed on her spirals, or at least did last year. To be frank I'm not sure what spirals has to do with jumping technique, which is what we were talking about. When it comes to jumping technique.

 

[DarkestMoon]

The CoP didn't destroy Mao, but it certainly brought attention to her flawed technique that has been overlooked for years. (as well as other ladies with the same issues) I think Mao may have addressed her technique issues a bit late that she is struggling now. She just added the salchow and toe loop last in her programs. She is also thinking too much about edge calls and URs that she is not skating freely.

I have notice that the ballerina type of skaters tend to struggle with the CoP since their pretty moves are no longer rewarded as much as well executed jumps. Also these skaters don't have the strength and speed in their jumps compared to Yuna, Miki and Joannie, thus the balletic skaters tend to UR. Probably the reason behind the American ladies' downfall. The baby ballerina types are on the verge of extinction now with CoP.

 

[wonderlen3000]

The CoP didn't destroy Mao, but it certainly brought attention to her flawed technique that has been overlooked for years. (as well as other ladies with the same issues) I think Mao may have addressed her technique issues a bit late that she is struggling now. She just added the salchow and toe loop last in her programs. She is also thinking too much about edge calls and URs that she is not skating freely.

I have notice that the ballerina type of skaters tend to struggle with the CoP since their pretty moves are no longer rewarded as much as well executed jumps. Also these skaters don't have the strength and speed in their jumps compared to Yuna, Miki and Joannie, thus the balletic skaters tend to UR. Probably the reason behind the American ladies' downfall. The baby ballerina types are on the verge of extinction now with CoP.

I recall some t.v commentors saying that skaters with great flexibility (baby ballerina types) tend to have weaker hip and it cause them problem with jumps.
Such as not holding long enough edge, shaky landing, underrotation, less heigh, etc.

Thou it's not scientifically proven, just looke at skater like Cohen. She was great with spins and spirals, but all her jumps are best look with one eye close.

 

[schiele]

I recall some t.v commentors saying that skaters with great flexibility (baby ballerina types) tend to have weaker hip and it cause them problem with jumps.
Such as not holding long enough edge, shaky landing, underrotation, less heigh, etc.

Thou it's not scientifically proven, just looke at skater like Cohen. She was great with spins and spirals, but all her jumps are best look with one eye close.

Well unconsciously, I always preferred non-ballerina types like Rochette, Slutskaya and Yuna and probably that's the reason why.. Good point.

 

[kandidy]

Why bring Kim to this thread? I thought we were discussing COP and Mao....
(sorry I also did off thread comment previously)

 

[bekalc]

I recall some t.v commentors saying that skaters with great flexibility (baby ballerina types) tend to have weaker hip and it cause them problem with jumps.
Such as not holding long enough edge, shaky landing, underrotation, less heigh, etc.

Thou it's not scientifically proven, just looke at skater like Cohen. She was great with spins and spirals, but all her jumps are best look with one eye close.

Well I read somewhere, that apparently when she was younger, Yu-na's coaches/mom thought it would be a good idea to work on her flexibility. But they found it adversely affected her jumps, so they choose to stop.