Has Ilia Malinin improved his artistry?

[gsk8]

Love him or side-eye him, Ilia Malinin has bulldozed his way into the history books. The two-time world champion has pushed the technical bar into another stratosphere, routinely packing his programs with an arsenal of quads. But now that the shock value has settled and the “Quad God” reputation is established, the spotlight has shifted.

Has Malinin truly evolved artistically — with deeper interpretation, stronger skating skills, and more nuanced performance quality — or are we still watching a technical juggernaut with choreography wrapped around jump drills?

Take the Poll! And/or discuss! What can he improve on in basic skating skills and/or artistry? Be specific!

 

[yfan1]

He's improved since he debuted as senior, and it shows in the SPs. IMO, he's got stage presence. Still does need work, but that's a given.

His LPs are a mess though, and are pretty much modern jump drills. The voice overs were very embarrassing this season.

 

[gsk8]

I didn't connect with "A Voice" for some reason, although I really did like the 2023-24 FS to "Succession." It took me in.

I'm watching those feet and I see lots of potential there. Hope he spends more time on that! I would like to see more flow and deeper edges. Right now, I feel things are "disjointed" in some places. I think working on some better transitions would do a lot in terms of presentation as well.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

I think that it's a good moment now, over a week after the most traumatic skate, and back home. Thank you!

What I can't understand in the question and the proposed answers, is that it seems to call "technique" only the jumps, and "artistry" all the Components? In Figure Skating, technique is both the biggest part of the Elements (Jumps, Spins, Step Sequence, Choreographic Sequence in the Free Skating) which can also have artistry, and the biggest part of the Components, even if the Presentation may have a little more artistry proportionally; and rightly so, competitive Figure Skating is a Sport.
Before speaking of artistry regarding Ilia Malinin (and I wish to say that I'm speaking of the early season, up to and including US National Championships), and although some skaters in the past have had great programs with flat two-footed skating made of easy steps (but they were mastering the steps and have fluid skating and it was another time), I think that his problem is all his technique, with the exception of the jumps and the step preceding his jumps. It's striking, and I have never seen that with any other skater. Some of you have watched many more skaters and might have seen this phenomenon elsewhere? I haven't. Between the jumps, his skating is something not usually seen in the international circuit, then all of a sudden, his step into the jump is deft, as if he was able of Skating Skills in the 7 or 8s, and the jump is good, with a good take-off and a landing lacking rotation but there has been a great progress regarding its initial stiffness, which used make me worry a lot for his hips until this season.
My guess is that his training is made with lots of jump drilling including the step into the jump, hence why this one is so good when compared with the rest, a bit of Spins and the necessary Step Sequence run-throughs to get approximatively the levels, and no training to improve his strokes, steps and turns. or he's completely inattentive to them, which I see as possible because I'm afraid that he's been somehow gaslighted there, into not knowing what's a good skating technique and shown it, and the difference with his.
Not in Figure Skating, but in Dance, Ballet etc, French school children are told, without being taught any previous technique, go! Dance! Express yourself! and applauded afterwards by their school teachers (not Ballet teachers!) who have, themselves, been taught to "teach" this way. Among these children, those who have some body moves self-awareness feel powerless, in failure, ashamed, disheartened, for having to dance so poorly; but those who don't have it, really believe that they've danced well and may even become arrogant. I should be very surprised if Ilia Malinin had ever been told that he needed to improve his technique, and been regularly and objectively assessed on it. I really don't think (sorry for bringing back this incident, I use it only because of what it showed of his notions of technique) that he would have ever said that Jason Brown was getting a Components scores bonus for... a non-skating reason (while in fact it's Ilia Malinin who was already quite overscored), had he not believed it. He has been surprised telling false things which he knew were false but then, it had been suggested to him by the fan he was chatting with, and one could see Ilia Malinin turning on his imagination and repeat what his fan was saying. I don't think that he's an outright liar, really.

Is it not time to tell him that if he wants to go on skating, he really has to improve his technique dramatically, that it's a lot of boring work where he still needs to be focused and motivated, and that he can? His steps into jumps and his jump technique show that he can really become a good, all-round skater, that's a big advantage. There are skaters with a (less) poor technique who really don't seem to be able to do better, I suppose that it's a matter of motility (sorry, I don't know English words), so, knowing that the results would be at the end of the tunnel would be quite something!
Of course, if his scores go on not reflecting his skates, that would be quite demotivating.

English isn't my first language and I've tried to express complex notions, please tell me if there's anything unclear.

 

[Mathman]

My advice to Ilia would be, don't take my advice. Be yourself, forge your own path.

Just as figure skating encourages a wide variety of skills, so does the world of skating have room for a wide variety of athletes and performing styles. A technically well executed jump can ibe a thing of beauty and an audience thriller all by itself.

We are not (at least, I am not) looking for another Yuzuru Hanyu, another Patrick Chan, another John Curry or Robin Cousins. The one-and-only Ilia Malinin is a humdinger of a skater, too.

 

[4everchan]

Well @Mathman it's good you are not looking for another Patrick Chan because there won't be. That's why I chose my username. I had a glimmer of hope in Joseph Phan but he retired early with a very bad injury. Skaters nowadays, even the lower level ones are not focusing on having deep edges and flow. They are learning the jumps. Can we blame them? Nope.. it's the way they get most points so that's what they need to do.

I don't think anyone expect Malinin to suddenly become a PCS skater. In the SPs, he is usually okay. He loves performing and it shows in the second half of the SPs and because they are shorter, it is fine.

In the LPs, we face another animal. It is just a jump drill. It's not only Malinin.. but he is not helping the trend in the other direction by chasing jumping records.

He did not help his case this year with what he chose to do for his LP. Sorry but that was just a bad idea and his team should have told him it was a bad idea. Not only the program was terrible with the meaningless supposed to be meaningful voiceovers but I suspect that it added more media awareness and thus more pressure. It's like as if he sabotaged himself and his team let him to it.

Oh well, just my two cents here..

I hesitated between No and Marginal. I feel that like Shaidorov, he is a bit less rough than a couple years ago. However, if I am going to praise him for his technical achievements, I am not interested at all in watching him skate because I do not find it interesting.

What I will say : I saw him skate live at two events already. It's more fun when you are at the rink because the jumps, when they are good, are very impressive. The crowd gets into it. However, on stream/tv, that energy is not there.

I actually find many other of his competitors more interesting to watch. I don't think I will ever be a fan unless he does change his skating drastically. It's okay, Ilia has many devoted fans. He doesn't need an old Patrick Chan uber

 

[DancingCactus]

His skating skills? A bit. But only on a good day.

His "artistry" ? I don't think so.
Yes, he seem to like performing, but for me the problem is that it's so obviously a performance. And at times the programs seem to be a bit pretentious and sometimes a bit cringe.

Maybe I'm to jaded and I certainly have different taste in music than he and his team, but this edgelord gala program really made me roll my eyes.

 

[freedomlover]

The subjective idea of what casuals consider "artistry" in figure skating only gets rewarded with one component- Presentation. Which is why I voted for marginal improvement- Ilia has developed as a performer and jumper (I do like his jumps), but not necessarily as a skater. While his SPs are better transitions wise, it's still a rough watch if he has step-outs or something. Won't repeat everything that has been said about the LPs. He has the qualities to become better in SS and Composition, but not willing to work on it when you're getting big scores anyway, while regrettable, is understandable.

 

[frompolandwithlove]

Like others said: presentation-wise yes, he improved, but mostly in short programs. Last year for the first time I actually liked his program. The free is still a jump drill tho, and presentation is an afterthought. I also feel some of his choices are quite pretentious (like @DancingCactus said) and are meant to create an illusion of "artistry" (fake screaming, lip-syncing, lots of angry faces and such) rather than convey actual, real emotions in viewers. It's especially visible in exhibitions - the recent one just made me think of a quote from Dick Button: "he is bamboozling us with his hands". That was a lot of hand-waving, meanwhile his feet weren't doing much.

Skating skills - sure some work has been done there. He is using his knees more than he used to. Is it big improvement? I don't know. I wouldn't say so.

Lines, posture and body control - not his thing. He had one exhibition program (the one with white shirt and I think Billie Eilish song) that was supposed to be all about lines and smoothness of movement, but I remember thinking to myself that he probably started working on those things very recently and is still a beginner in this area. Still very little refinement in his moves. Props to him for trying tho. There is no other way to learn than trying.

The one thing that is great in his skating is aggresive commitment. Boy is not afraid of uniqueness anymore and his programs often say: "watch it, this is about ME." We can like it or not, but I would consider it an improvement.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

From when he debuted as a senior he’s vastly improved. If you take away the quads, he’s added greater body movement, better projection, more transitions, and skates with more intention and speed. And obviously huge points for originality. That, and goes without saying, he’s managing it while executing massively harder tech content. I don’t think he deserves 90 PCS quite yet, but he’s gone from a high 70s (IMO) from his senior debut to a mid-high 80s for me (depends on the performance, but skating at his very best, I’d award his composition around 8.50, presentation around 9.25, and skating skills around 8.75).

Also worth noting - we are talking about HIS growth. Not if he’s become a top artistic skater or improved to a Chan/Hanyu/etc.

 

[4everchan]

From when he debuted as a senior he’s vastly improved. If you take away the quads, he’s added greater body movement, better projection, more transitions, and skates with more intention and speed. And obviously huge points for originality. That, and goes without saying, he’s managing it while executing massively harder tech content. I don’t think he deserves 90 PCS quite yet, but he’s gone from a high 70s (IMO) from his senior debut to a mid-high 80s for me (depends on the performance, but skating at his very best, I’d award his composition around 8.50, presentation around 9.25, and skating skills around 8.75).

Also worth noting - we are talking about HIS growth. Not if he’s become a top artistic skater or improved to a Chan/Hanyu/etc.

Maybe it is indeed off-topic to talk about other skaters. However, I think it's difficult not to do so, especially if some fans are going as far as giving their suggested scores for the PCS components. If you suggest 8.5 for composition, 9.25 for presentation and 8.75 for skating skills, where are you putting the top skaters who currently compete with him, in these categories ? (rhetorical question) For starters, where do a skater with truly brilliant skating skills should be if Ilia deserves 8.75 ? (again, no need to answer specifically).

This is my issue with this. Comparison becomes relevant because PCS scores are assigned that way. Fair enough, we can leave out Patrick Chan and skaters from other eras, but the elephant in the room is that some fans, like myself, do think that though there is a slight improvement, especially in presentation, Ilia is very well paid when compared to his current competitors, for what he actually puts on the ice.
I bolded one word for emphasis. The guy is flying. That's awesome. But what does he put on the ice ? That's where I'd like to see much more improvement.

Also, while I am at it, what do you consider original ? Backflips and raspberry twists ? Knee slides ? Voiceovers ? I think it's fair to say that these moves have been used in the past and are still used nowadays. Do they deserve extra composition points ?

 

[yfan1]

I think Ilia's presentation is indeed his strongest component - but there I wouldn't go higher than 8.5, and depends on the vehicle.

Composition at best should be around 8.25 for the SP and 7-7.25 for the LP. And skating skills again - 8 for the SP, and 7.5 for the LP seems appropriate.

 

[Mathman]

My take is this.

"But what he does he does so well,
Makes me wanna yell:
Let's hear it for the boy!" -- Deniece Williams.

Are his programs angsty, self-involved? Of course they are -- he's 21.
"And (now) I'm two-and-twenty, and oh, tis true, tis true"-- AE Housman.

 

[TontoK]

See, I think his "artistry" is good. Because what I look for most is authenticity.

I want Ilia to be Ilia.

As much as I admire Patrick Chan's skating, I don't give a damn about him in a conversation about Ilia's artistry. I liked Patrick because he skated like Patrick. I like Ilia because he skates like Ilia.

You want to wage war about components, have at it. It's a nonstop war about every skater, and nobody ever agrees, and everyone thinks they're right and everyone else is wrong. So, whatever.

Nothing would disappoint me more than Ilia coming out with some prissy faux-artiste schlock program in hopes of being recognized as an artist by people who are never going to appreciate him for what he brings to the sport... or aren't ever going to like him anyway.

Do I expect he'll grow? Yes. Experiment with different types of programs? Sure. Do I want his true self lost in the process? No.

I look at a skater like Nam Nguyen. He had all the goods. He could have been astonishingly good. But when he retired, I thought, "What am I going to miss most about his skating?" And the answer was "nothing." And the reason is that I never felt like he was an authentic skater - it was one fake-ass posing program after another. I bet he's an interesting guy, he just never showed it.

Let Ilia be himself.

 

[4everchan]

Nothing would disappoint me more than Ilia coming out with some prissy faux-artiste schlock program in hopes of being recognized as an artist by people who are never going to appreciate him for what he brings to the sport... or aren't ever going to like him anyway.

Well, sorry to be disagreeing with you but the voiceovers LP gave me exactly the kind of feeling that you are describing in your post.

 

[TontoK]

Well, sorry to be disagreeing with you but the voiceovers LP gave me exactly the kind of feeling that you are describing in your post.

That's nice that you have an opinion.

Honestly, I wasn't a fan of the voiceover myself, but it's hard to argue it's non-authentic when it's his own damn voice doing it. He had something to say, and even if I didn't fully understand... he said it.

 

[yfan1]

Honestly, I wasn't a fan of the voiceover myself, but it's hard to argue it's non-authentic when it's his own damn voice doing it.

Well, no, not really. He could, as an example, riff off any number of young men instead of inserting any original or authentic thoughts into it. Doesn't mean it's coming from a genuine place within him.

That said, I didn't really get what he was saying either. That's probably my biggest issue with it - it was hokey. But anyway, I don't feel composition is just this. I mentioned it earlier, for the sake of skating, since we no longer have interpretation, while some of those aspects should be captured in the composition component, largely I'd say composition focuses on the technical aspects.

Ilia's skating really lacks good patterning or ice coverage to really get a particularly high score there - nor does he hit particularly pleasing positions in his spins, or do particularly technically demanding or sound choreography in his step sequences. His element distribution is rather predictable (although kudos for letting his 4A, 4Lz, 4Lo all come after his 4F - that'd get a tiny bit of credit from me). It doesn't mean there's no good technical choreography going on there, but certainly there are things that go beyond just voiceovers that need to be dinged on.

 

[Karoltyna]

From when he debuted as a senior he’s vastly improved. If you take away the quads, he’s added greater body movement, better projection, more transitions, and skates with more intention and speed. And obviously huge points for originality. That, and goes without saying, he’s managing it while executing massively harder tech content. I don’t think he deserves 90 PCS quite yet, but he’s gone from a high 70s (IMO) from his senior debut to a mid-high 80s for me (depends on the performance, but skating at his very best, I’d award his composition around 8.50, presentation around 9.25, and skating skills around 8.75).

Also worth noting - we are talking about HIS growth. Not if he’s become a top artistic skater or improved to a Chan/Hanyu/etc.

Ehhh, but the scale is to 10, not 11 and if you give Ilia 9.25 in presentation, there are definetly skaters who should get 10.50. I don't see originality in his programs, I see bunch of tricks that were cool when performed by others, so he included them. I'm not my son who makes faces when Ilia backflips (because in his 11 yo brain only Adam can backflip), it's ok to include things, but it's not originality. 2 seasons ago I admitted he is improving, but now I think he is stuck and struggling to find right direction because next season he will be 22, a champion who failed to be OGM, so no longer young and eager to challenge them all.

 

[noskates]

Personally I think it's foolhardy and nonsensical to compare Ilia to great skaters of the past. The sport has evolved significantly - whether it be the jumping prowess, what constitutes GOE (oh God, I keep hearing Tara's whiny voice explaining GOE on just about every skater....) I find Ilia more pleasant to watch than I did Nathan Chen. (and don't hit me on that - personal preference) I loved Nathan's skating - don't get me wrong - but they are two totally different skaters who happen to be gifted athletically to jump quads. I also think that Ilia's team has realized his parents aren't enough at this point and have engaged an outstanding choreographer in Shae Lynn and a jump coach in Raf. Yes his choices of music are a bit esoteric but that pretty much reflects his personality. I still have to laugh at the self-proclaimed experts on here that talk about his programs like they're professional choreographers and know what he should do to be better. Would accept it more if they prefaced those remarks with "IMO"

 

[Karoltyna]

That's nice that you have an opinion.

Honestly, I wasn't a fan of the voiceover myself, but it's hard to argue it's non-authentic when it's his own damn voice doing it. He had something to say, and even if I didn't fully understand... he said it.

I think he was authentic when he was skating his SP from last season, this year's programs weren't authentic at all, they were created to add to the hype and to built his persona of untouchable winner hated by many because he wins. His FS, that I really don't like, but can understad, worked when jumps worked, when they didn't, the voiceovers turned into parody. This was very risky move and it bacjfired exactly in the moment when it was supposed to work.