Has Ilia Malinin improved his artistry?

[Jennyf]

Answering the question asked, yes I have seen improvement. I would say even great improvement from his first senior season. I think the choreo on his LP last season was better than this season, but in general I still see much improvement. What I find most exciting about Ilia is almost how much room for improvement there still is, in things that I think actually CAN be improved. He has the ability to do out of this world jumps, and he does them beautifully. There is true artistry in his jumps, and his landings when he is fully in control of them. That's not something that everyone can get to, regardless of how much they try. But deep edges and transitions, the things in between jumps that make the skating beautiful and emotional, I do think that can be learned and perfected and I hope he focuses on that going forward. Some of it is also his choreography, and of course some of it is the way the points system is set up that encourages a focus on jumps and everyone doing the same spins.

I was watching a video with Brian Boitano where he talked about training with John Nicks to improve his back crossover, and how he had him bending his knees so deeply that he kept hitting the wall. Does anyone spend hours on that anymore? I think there might not be enough time if you're trying to perfect quad jumps and the endless litany of little things designed to get as many points as possible. Or maybe it's just a lack of desire, I don't know.

But, I think this Olympics has changed Ilia. You can see it in the interviews he's been giving. He was so hyper focused on this one thing for so long, and to get there, he needed the jumps. I think he is coming around to view skating holistically instead. What changes in his skating that results in, remains to be seen. But I am excited.

 

[Mathman]

Well, no, not really. He could, as an example, riff off any number of young men instead of inserting any original or authentic thoughts into it. Doesn't mean it's coming from a genuine place within him.

I immediately thought of The Sorrows of Young Werther (Goethe). What young man has not suffered Sturm und Drang. It is perfectly "original" and authentic to each of them (us).

[OT. There is a street in Detroit named "Goethe" It is pronounced Go-EE-thee. ]

 

[yfan1]

I immediately thought of The Sorrows of Young Werther (Goethe). What young man has not suffered Sturm und Drang. It is perfectly "original" and authentic to each of them (us).

[OT. There is a street in Detroit named "Goethe" It is pronounced Go-EE-thee. ]

IDK. My mind goes to Evgenia Medvedeva's Anna Karenina or her 9/11 LP. She performed them well. The choreography was just contrived. For her, at least, we had the excuse that she barely was given the chance to express a personal point of view. I find Ilia's LP here contrived despite him clearly participating in the process...

 

[Mathman]

^ I still want to cut him some slack. Pretentiousness and marveling at the depths of one's own unique soul are part of the "authenticity." I wrote some very profound poems when I was 21. Burned them when I was 22. (Thank goodness the internet wasn't around then to preserve them for all time.)

As for Evgenia Medvedeva, she performed the choreography that was prepared for her. Did Julia Lipnitskia have a personal deep connection to Schidler's list? Is it really fair or useful to ask such questions?

 

[Zora]

I think he certainly has improved, I just don't think his and mine idea of artistry will ever align. Nor our music tastes. He tries hard to show he's this modern type of skater, skating in a hoodie at an exhibition to some kind of music I'd never listen to again.
But I kind of like his skating. There are some quadsters who are clunky and gangly, but to me he's no. Just not a fan of his music choices, programs, step sequences...

 

[4everchan]

That's nice that you have an opinion.

Honestly, I wasn't a fan of the voiceover myself, but it's hard to argue it's non-authentic when it's his own damn voice doing it. He had something to say, and even if I didn't fully understand... he said it.

I can say a lot of inauthentic things with my own darn voice. Just saying

 

[freedomlover]

I think he was authentic when he was skating his SP from last season, this year's programs weren't authentic at all, they were created to add to the hype and to built his persona of untouchable winner hated by many because he wins. His FS, that I really don't like, but can understad, worked when jumps worked, when they didn't, the voiceovers turned into parody. This was very risky move and it bacjfired exactly in the moment when it was supposed to work.

This. I can live with the voiceovers, but his Vampire FS was better than this. Daniel Weiss' Zakarian-fed commentary about how the voiceovers represent a new form of artistry in Men's figure skating and that they were nothing we had ever seen before did fall a bit flat when the program is not delivered with the confidence and belief Ilia wants to portray as the Quadgod- or the "greatest figure skater to have ever touched the ice".

 

[freedomlover]

^ I still want to cut him some slack. Pretentiousness and marveling at the depths of one's own unique soul are part of the "authenticity." I wrote some very profound poems when I was 21. Burned them when I was 22. (Thank goodness the internet wasn't around then to preserve them for all time.)

As for Evgenia Medvedeva, she performed the choreography that was prepared for her. Did Julia Lipnitskia have a personal deep connection to Schidler's list? Is it really fair or useful to ask such questions?

did they ever claim to, though? Genuine question because I wasnt following FS back then and backreading can only tell you so much.

 

[lariko]

I love Ilia. Among other things, I love that he is always up to try stuff, improve stuff, add stuff, and change stuff up. The more resources he gets, the more he experiments and grows. Yes, he grew as an artist since his 2019-2020 first appearances. Can he grow more, and grow into the classics? What will this classics be? I don't know, I can't know, because in the end we all know nothing until it comes to pass. I don't know what the critics want from Ilia, except to lose to the 'insert name du jour'.

Best of luck to Ilia. He, at least, appears to be living to the fullest, not sitting and typing some BS on the internet about artistry.

 

[yfan1]

Artistry in skating isn't purely subjective. It's closer to craftsmanship. So yes it can and should be discussed. There's a reason why people talk about posture and carriage. If it didn't matter - and it shouldn't necessarily if we're talking about high art - then skating becomes less of a sport.

 

[TontoK]

Well, no, not really. He could, as an example, riff off any number of young men instead of inserting any original or authentic thoughts into it. Doesn't mean it's coming from a genuine place within him.

That said, I didn't really get what he was saying either. That's probably my biggest issue with it - it was hokey. But anyway, I don't feel composition is just this. I mentioned it earlier, for the sake of skating, since we no longer have interpretation, while some of those aspects should be captured in the composition component, largely I'd say composition focuses on the technical aspects.

Ilia's skating really lacks good patterning or ice coverage to really get a particularly high score there - nor does he hit particularly pleasing positions in his spins, or do particularly technically demanding or sound choreography in his step sequences. His element distribution is rather predictable (although kudos for letting his 4A, 4Lz, 4Lo all come after his 4F - that'd get a tiny bit of credit from me). It doesn't mean there's no good technical choreography going on there, but certainly there are things that go beyond just voiceovers that need to be dinged on.

And all your points about composition are fine. Stand in a field and gripe about components til the cows come home. You'll still be standing there next week, next month, next year... because people with differing opinions are going to argue with you until THEIR cows come home.

I'm talking about authenticity. Is the skater himself/herself? And that doesn't mean skating the same programs over and over. Take Alysa Liu's programs this year (and last year, if we're being honest). Did I see the "true" Alysa shine though in "Promise".... you bet, and it was a little bit heartbreaking and a little bit uplifting. Did I see the "true" Alysa come through in "McArthur Park"... absolutely, and it was fun and carefree and young. She had two completely different types of programs, but she never stopped being authentic just because the music changed.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

That's nice that you have an opinion.

Honestly, I wasn't a fan of the voiceover myself, but it's hard to argue it's non-authentic when it's his own damn voice doing it. He had something to say, and even if I didn't fully understand... he said it.

I generally hate voiceovers in skating. I don't think it was necessary in this program, and maybe even a bit detracting. The use of one's/ his voice is self-indulgent — but the message is oddly humbling, "The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.". A bit try-hard, yeah, but still not out of place for him. Oddly foreshadowing too, because everyone "knew" he would be the de facto winner... sometimes what we know and what is or ends up being the case are different.

That being said, I found this not as self-indulgent as something like Plushenko's homage to himself which was basically a hodgepodge dedicated to his "best of".

Jason Brown's Riverdance 2.0 SP or S/D's revamped Dune FD actually was the best version of self-homage, bringing back a former program but a new spin on it, and felt fresh even if familiar.

But yeah, Ilia shouldn't (and probably wouldn't want to) do this program competitively ever again.

 

[4everchan]

I am really confused about some posts saying that skaters skated programs that were true to themselves as if these fans were long time friends or family members of these athletes.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I am really confused about some posts saying that skaters skated programs that were true to themselves as if these fans were long time friends or family members of these athletes.

These skaters do have social media and aren't living in a bubble of the programs they present though. Many of them have a brand. I think it's telling though when a skater skates to a program that inherently feels like it's "them" vs. a program that they are "made" to do.

Keegan Messing's "Home" for example would be "truer" to him compared to him than if he did Chopin's Piano Concerto No 2. Jason Brown's a showman, so Riverdance feels very "him". Alysa Liu's MacArthur Park feels very "her" and it would be weird to see Sakamoto do a campier disco number like that. Tonya Harding had her Jurassic Park/Batman/movie themes which were unorthodox and kinda so-tacky-it-actually-works since they worked with the skater (and person) she is.

While most of us don't know these skaters personally, you can sort of tell when someone is trying something outside their comfort zone and when someone is trying to be something that they are not to pander to the judges. Mao Asada's Bells of Moscow was, for example, a really poor choice but with Tarasova coaching her and the Olympics and all I got the sense of "This is the program you are doing. Do it." The styling, the choreo... she was only 20... it was too bombastic for her, and it didn't feel very "her" (IMO).

Ilia's vibe is more contemporary Gen Alpha vibes, hence the rapping in the SP and the voiceovers in the FS. It would be also weird for him to do a classical warhorse. I'd love to see him try something classical to extend himself artistically, but I don't think HE would feel comfortable doing that, and it would come across as contrived.

 

[Jennyf]

Ilia is also only 21, and, to my eyes at least, appears a little younger even than that. Sheltered and innocent maybe. As he grows and ages, his tastes will change and I'm sure his music, choreography and how he expresses himself artistically will change too. If he makes it to 2030 Olympics, he will be a full grown man of 25. Who knows what's in store.

 

[Mathman]

did they ever claim to, though? Genuine question because I wasnt following FS back then and backreading can only tell you so much.

No. Certainly Medvedeva never claimed to be doing anything but skating the choreography that she was given. She did seem to be comfortable with programs that involved literal miming out the story -- I don't know if that was her choice or the choice of her coach and choreographer.

As for Lipnitskia. again, I don't know anything about the skater. The Schindler's List program was very well received by audiences, though. My point was not to criticize any skater, but rather to say that questions like -- what did this program mean to the skater herself -- are not really very interesting or relevant from a fan's perspective. They skated, landed their jumps, tried to match movement to musical phrasing as best they could, got some good marks...

 

[4everchan]

These skaters do have social media and aren't living in a bubble of the programs they present though. Many of them have a brand. I think it's telling though when a skater skates to a program that inherently feels like it's "them" vs. a program that they are "made" to do.

Keegan Messing's "Home" for example would be "truer" to him compared to him than if he did Chopin's Piano Concerto No 2. Jason Brown's a showman, so Riverdance feels very "him". Alysa Liu's MacArthur Park feels very "her" and it would be weird to see Sakamoto do a campier disco number like that. Tonya Harding had her Jurassic Park/Batman/movie themes which were unorthodox and kinda so-tacky-it-actually-works since they worked with the skater (and person) she is.

While most of us don't know these skaters personally, you can sort of tell when someone is trying something outside their comfort zone and when someone is trying to be something that they are not to pander to the judges. Mao Asada's Bells of Moscow was, for example, a really poor choice but with Tarasova coaching her and the Olympics and all I got the sense of "This is the program you are doing. Do it." The styling, the choreo... she was only 20... it was too bombastic for her, and it didn't feel very "her" (IMO).

Ilia's vibe is more contemporary Gen Alpha vibes, hence the rapping in the SP and the voiceovers in the FS. It would be also weird for him to do a classical warhorse. I'd love to see him try something classical to extend himself artistically, but I don't think HE would feel comfortable doing that, and it would come across as contrived.

It's all about the brand. I don't think anyone can pretend they know Jackson B squats about athletes just through their social media

ETA. There is some truth about musical style but that doesn't equate to personality, at least, in my own experience.

 

[Zora]

did they ever claim to, though? Genuine question because I wasnt following FS back then and backreading can only tell you so much.

No. Certainly Medvedeva never claimed to be doing anything but skating the choreography that she was given.

I might be wrong, but wasn't Evgenia's 2016/2017 short program about her growing up or something? She was probably given this program and choreography, but it was still kind of about herself, something she could connect to.

 

[Mathman]

My first choice for a Voiceover program would be Robert Frost reading The Road Not Taken. For one thing, it's only about a minute long. That would leave plenty of time between lines for the skater silently to make a show of pondering deep thoughts. If it were Iliaa, he could triumphantly say, I'll take THIS road, thank you very much as he takes off for his quad Axel.

Then he could close with a nod to his competitors,"Who'll go a-Wa;tzing Matilda with me?"

 

[Mathman]

Artistry in skating isn't purely subjective. It's closer to craftsmanship. So yes it can and should be discussed. There's a reason why people talk about posture and carriage. If it didn't matter - and it shouldn't necessarily if were talking about high art...

I don't know how "high" the preforming arts are ranked, but in figure skating as in dance, posture and carriage can make all the difference between a program that we want to watch and one that is a refrigerator break, to me.