Hawayek & Baker withdraw from US Nationals

[macy]

I don't think it is quite that simple. USFS may have a strong preference for the appearance or "fairness" and teams fighting it out at Nationals and awarding spots based on that competition. And as others have said, you can often measure when one has healed from a physical injury but how do you objectively measure improved mental health? In this instance H/B are clearly in the top two US ice dancers . . . but what would you do if the presumptive no. 3 or no. 4 (say Green and Parsons or Carrera and Ponomerenko) withdrew for mental health concerns?

(apologies for spelling)

in the statement they cited physical injuries that lead to struggles with mental health. i interpret that as a dual problem- the physical injuries have been around for some time, are still present, and likely have lead to frustration, confidence issues, dealing with not being able to train 100% or as normal, etc and they aren't feeling confident enough to compete for physical and mental reasons. i know a lot of the statement is up for our own interpretation, but i get the impression that if they can concentrate on rest/healing the physical injuries, the mental struggles will follow.

 

[SmileHappy34]

I am sorry to see them withdraw. I thought with the way they been skating they had a decent shot at the title.
I do think Madison Chock and Evan Bates will win, but I thought they would push them or even beat them in
one section. HOpe for the best to them.

 

[Skater Boy]

THey must be pretty "not well" or confident they will be picked to go to worlds. In their favour they are quite a bit above the next two teams. As to mental health it seems to be coming up all over - work, sports, political leaders. Is it become we are no longer so tough? Is it because we won't put up with "crap" any more? Is it just a change of attitude how to deal with the anxiety, pressures and stresses or is it because there is more? I do wonder with for example in sports and the arts you see kids starting earlier and parents putting more money in and time. More "sessions", practices, more opportunities to travel and compete, even in gym classes the non future olympian is doing some pretty difficult stuff ie gymnastics or speed in running. I could never do a sommer sault and now "nobodies" are doing or expected to do round offs or whatever. Even lower level sports have conditioning, dieticians, work out regimes. Society in general expects a lot - career, family, and more diy than you can fill an HGTV network. Iti s almost expected you have all these skills cook, clean, pick up kids, career, voluteer, bake your own bread, build your own basement...

 

[litenkyckling]

THey must be pretty "not well" or confident they will be picked to go to worlds. In their favour they are quite a bit above the next two teams. As to mental health it seems to be coming up all over - work, sports, political leaders. Is it become we are no longer so tough? Is it because we won't put up with "crap" any more? Is it just a change of attitude how to deal with the anxiety, pressures and stresses or is it because there is more? I do wonder with for example in sports and the arts you see kids starting earlier and parents putting more money in and time. More "sessions", practices, more opportunities to travel and compete, even in gym classes the non future olympian is doing some pretty difficult stuff ie gymnastics or speed in running. I could never do a sommer sault and now "nobodies" are doing or expected to do round offs or whatever. Even lower level sports have conditioning, dieticians, work out regimes. Society in general expects a lot - career, family, and more diy than you can fill an HGTV network. Iti s almost expected you have all these skills cook, clean, pick up kids, career, voluteer, bake your own bread, build your own basement...

I think it's because as a society we are finally learning more and understanding mental health. We all have it, it's always been there - but as a society we are more open about it. As we should be. Mental health is the same as physical health, it's just easier to hide. Sometimes, it's good, sometimes it's bad but it passes, sometimes it's chronically bad, sometimes it's a bit of both. But it's important that we speak about it. The more we speak about it, the less stigmatised it is.

I think that this was an incredibly courageous decision from them, and teaching younger teams about resilience and strength to speak up and get help when you need it is what makes them great role models. This is such a vicious sport in so many ways, and so actions like this give me hope and faith that things will change for the better eventually. I hope they're on the road to recovery and that we see them back and strong soon.

It does make me wonder if they will go the whole way to 2026 - her knee has looked painful for a couple of seasons now so who knows where it will be health wise in 4 years (I'd imagine that they would have their sights on the podium if they do go).

 

[NanaPat]

As to mental health it seems to be coming up all over - work, sports, political leaders. Is it become we are no longer so tough? Is it because we won't put up with "crap" any more? Is it just a change of attitude how to deal with the anxiety, pressures and stresses or is it because there is more?

I think a lot of it is just a difference in what people are saying, not the root cause of retirements, hiatus, etc. How many politicians retire "to spend more time with their family?" Do you think that's the real reason in all cases?

I think it's just become more acceptable to talk about mental health. If that leads to more people getting effective treatment, that's a good thing.

 

[Amei]

I don't think it is quite that simple. USFS may have a strong preference for the appearance or "fairness" and teams fighting it out at Nationals and awarding spots based on that competition. And as others have said, you can often measure when one has healed from a physical injury but how do you objectively measure improved mental health? In this instance H/B are clearly in the top two US ice dancers . . . but what would you do if the presumptive no. 3 or no. 4 (say Green and Parsons or Carrera and Ponomerenko) withdrew for mental health concerns?

(apologies for spelling)

They don't, they've been degrading the importance of Nationals for years instead placing importance on body of work.

 

[gsk8]

THey must be pretty "not well" or confident they will be picked to go to worlds. In their favour they are quite a bit above the next two teams. As to mental health it seems to be coming up all over - work, sports, political leaders.

I don't think judging them when you don't know what their situation is appropriate. No one knows what they think. As to mental health, that's a broad term and could mean a lot of things. All athletes go through mentally challenging periods at different levels for different reasons.

 

[4everchan]

Mental health : it is discussed more and more in Canada (probably elsewhere but I refer to Canada because these are the media I get to see).

This is a podcast (When sport harms mental health) hosted by Roseline Filion, twice olympic bronze medalist (diving) and on the podium at all big championships, Worlds, PanAm, Commonwealth games.

Kim Boutin, some of you may remember her is on there too. She is a 4 time olympic medal winner and the one who received death threats in 2018 (Korea).

They talk about how "intense" it becomes to be an elite athlete.
They talk about how the "instinct to win" can take over and turn into an obsession.
They talk extensively about doubt, confidence, looking for perfection, self-esteem, comments from social media... etc

Kim talks about the unpredictable aspect of short track speed skating... how one day can go well and the next can be awful... and how it would affect her social life, her sleep, her diet.

She goes on about the many breaks she took away from the sport. To heal her back for instance, but also to rest. She was given anti-depressors to calm the pain for instance, which lead her to take a 6 month hiatus from the sport, and that was before her first Olympic games. She felt that she needed to be healthy both physically and mentally. She also mentions that the few times she made such moves, it was really against the grain, against what everyone would say... she did it for herself as there was no other way. She felt judged by other athletes because she was showing her vulnerability. When she came back, the fed backed her up. However, some other athletes were not too thrilled that she was put back on the National team as she had been away for so long...

They talk about Marie-Sophie Harvey as well, an Olympic swimmer, who nearly succeeded to commit suicide. Thanks to the support of her mother, she got better and realised her dream to go to the games...

Anyways, it's in French so I am "translating" as I am watching. I don't think one will learn new and groundbreaking information in this video, but the fact that it is shown on the national news network (French CBC) shows that it is something that former athletes believe a new awareness needs to be promoted. I have no idea what HB are going through but they deserve nothing else but space, rest, respect and support.

Quand le sport nuit à la santé mentale | Sports | Radio-Canada

Le sport de haut niveau forme des athlètes disciplinés, rigoureux et persévérants. Mais mal canalisée, la quête constante du dépassement de soi et de l’excellence peut vite se transformer en obsession de performance et faire des ravages sur la santé mentale. Est-ce possible de repousser ses...

ici.radio-canada.ca

 

[kolyadafan2002]

They don't, they've been degrading the importance of Nationals for years instead placing importance on body of work.

Exactly. Best example is Ilia and olympics.

 

[Amei]

Exactly. Best example is Ilia and olympics.

Michelle Kwan 2006 I think was where it started, she was put on the Olympic team having not competed all year including at nationals due to an injury

 

[SmileHappy34]

I am confused by certain people statement, by claiming best example (Michelle Kwan , and Ilia) . It is because another person stated degraded nationals by not going. Let's see I could add Todd Eldredge, Nancy, Nicole , Alysia , and others skaters who got assign to worlds, Olympics and other competitions by not competing. Isn't this about how hard injury impacts a skater it team? Is okay for one team to pull out ( in this case Hawayek and Baker).and not the names kor others. Yes H/B pull out due to injury . Are we going to degraded ourselves by what we think shoult be the real reason as some implied, or assume . No they pull out to injury. It affects them I am sad about it . The why is them only and how it affects them later on and out of competition.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

I am confused by certain people statement, by claiming best example (Michelle Kwan , and Ilia) . It is because another person stated degraded nationals by not going. Let's see I could add Todd Eldredge, Nancy, Nicole , Alysia , and others skaters who got assign to worlds, Olympics and other competitions by not competing. Isn't this about how hard injury impacts a skater it team? Is okay for one team to pull out ( in this case Hawayek and Baker).and not the names kor others. Yes H/B pull out due to injury . Are we going to degraded ourselves by what we think shoult be the real reason as some implied, or assume . No they pull out to injury. It affects them I am sad about it . The why is them only and how it affects them later on and out of competition.

Those examples, well mine, was to show that US don't value nationals above everything else. The body of work is important and considered for international selection.

At the end of the day, if Nathan Chen withdrew from nationals before the last Olympics of course they would still send him. Of course, as a multiple world champ that example was extreme, but remember that Hawayek/Baker were consistently towards the top of their game during the GP series, and qualified for GPF. From the US fed point of view, they make sense.

My example with Ilia was to show despite him coming 2nd* (corrected mistake) at nationals, he wasn't sent to the Olympics. This is because he lacked the body of work compared to brown.

 

[TontoK]

I am confused by certain people statement, by claiming best example (Michelle Kwan , and Ilia) . It is because another person stated degraded nationals by not going. Let's see I could add Todd Eldredge, Nancy, Nicole , Alysia , and others skaters who got assign to worlds, Olympics and other competitions by not competing. Isn't this about how hard injury impacts a skater it team? Is okay for one team to pull out ( in this case Hawayek and Baker).and not the names kor others. Yes H/B pull out due to injury . Are we going to degraded ourselves by what we think shoult be the real reason as some implied, or assume . No they pull out to injury. It affects them I am sad about it . The why is them only and how it affects them later on and out of competition.

With the exception of Nancy Kerrigan, whom I view as a special case, did any of the athletes you mention as having been named to World or Olympic teams without earning it at Nationals win a medal? I mean that particular year?

 

[TontoK]

My example with Ilia was to show despite him coming 3rd at nationals, he wasn't sent to the Olympics. This is because he lacked the body of work compared to brown.

Ilia finished second in the year you're referencing. The top 3 were Nathan, Ilia, and Vincent.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Ilia finished second in the year you're referencing. The top 3 were Nathan, Ilia, and Vincent.

My bad. That being said supports the point I'm making even more.

 

[moonvine]

I don't think it is quite that simple. USFS may have a strong preference for the appearance or "fairness" and teams fighting it out at Nationals and awarding spots based on that competition. And as others have said, you can often measure when one has healed from a physical injury but how do you objectively measure improved mental health? In this instance H/B are clearly in the top two US ice dancers . . . but what would you do if the presumptive no. 3 or no. 4 (say Green and Parsons or Carrera and Ponomerenko) withdrew for mental health concerns?

(apologies for spelling)

It is exactly that simple. H/B are having a great season and made the GPF. They are the #2 team in the US, top 10 in the world, and have finished in the top 10 at Worlds every time they have gone. Neither G/P nor C/P have that track record. I’m not saying this because I like them. If Maddie and Evan had withdrawn before the comp I would expect them to be put on the Worlds team. G/P got one bronze and one 4th on the GP this year. C/P got 2 4th places. Honestly to me it is extremely clear cut.

As far as how one can tell if a mental health concern has been addressed, they should be able to get a simple statement from their therapist, just like one could get a statement from a physician.

So again, if they want to send their best 3 teams, they will send H/B and whoever finishes 2nd to C/B. If they want an appearance of fairness, they won’t be sending their 3 best teams. In the end it doesn’t matter a whole lot. I don’t think any combination of teams would lose us our 3 spots. Fairness and ice dance don’t belong in the same sentence. It isn’t fair at all.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

I'm just going to add my quick 2 cents here as a former competitive ice dancer.
I love and respect H/B and only want the best for them and to see them happy and healthy both physically and mentally.
I also feel the same about other teams vying for the podium in US.
But I will say this much: Yes I do believe that H/B deserve a spot to go to Worlds, especially if they will be happy and healthy mentally/physically b/c when they are they are a huge medal/podium threat.
But I also will say one can't judge that C/P or Gr/Pa won't do well or end up in top 10 at Worlds for the US, since they've never had that opportunity yet (as the US podium has been locked down by the same few handful of teams for years now).
I wish everyone the best.