How can Kozuka compete with Chan On PCS?

[Bluebonnet]

Judges are very follow-the-leader and who-has-the-most-street-cred when it comes to scoring competitions. If everyone around them is saying "oh, this person is the best skater" then that's generally how the competition will be scored. There are not enough judges who have shown the ability to think for themselves and use critical judgement that is unswayed by peer pressure.

A lot of good points from your post, BoP! But I just question about this quoted part. Shouldn't it be this way? Shouldn't they follow the crowd? Or they'd be more controversial than they've already been.

 

[Dragonlady]

Originally Posted by Blades of Passion
Judges are very follow-the-leader and who-has-the-most-street-cred when it comes to scoring competitions. If everyone around them is saying "oh, this person is the best skater" then that's generally how the competition will be scored. There are not enough judges who have shown the ability to think for themselves and use critical judgement that is unswayed by peer pressure.

Judges who "think for themselves" don't last long in the sport of figure skating because they would be suspended. Any judge whose marks deviate significantly from the pack, are subject to a disciplinary hearing and would lose their ISU judging status, be sent for retraining, or both. The ISU doesn't want independent thinkers, they want judges who follow the rules and the guidelines.

Of course if you'd bother to read those rules and guidelines, you would know this.

 

[Buttercup]

FWIW, I don't think Patrick has a distinct style; skating skills and transitions are not a style.

Good point. Patrick is getting there although not quite there yet. I see a style of his own emerging in his Take Five and the exhibition program where he holds a mop.

I actually don't think skaters must have a distinct style; the whole point of Savchenko and Szolkowy is their range as performers and ability to do very different things. That diversity is their style, in a sense. With Chan, I've not seen either a developing personal style or much range as a performer. The predictable music choices aren't helping much. Kozuka does have more of a definable style, IMO, and he's tried to expand beyond it occasionally (not always successfully).

Going back to the thread title, Kozuka basically needs more momentum... judges are very follow-the-leader and who-has-the-most-street-cred when it comes to scoring competitions. If everyone around them is saying "oh, this person is the best skater" then that's generally how the competition will be scored. There are not enough judges who have shown the ability to think for themselves and use critical judgement that is unswayed by peer pressure... If he beats Patrick Chan multiple times and continues to deliver, then the judges will start scoring his PCS at the same level (or higher) because of the 'Champion Aura' that automatically gives higher scores to any skater who has been having strong competition results recently. Kozuka certainly has the skating skills and the transitions and the musicality and the technical goods. His style is not the type that is going to be more favored if he and Patrick skate equally well and are on equal ground in terms of reputation, however. People tend to focus more on the superficial, such as the notion that skaters who look down at the ice deserve lower PCS. It doesn't matter how brilliantly that kind of introspective demeanor reflects the music, some people will always just see it as a weakness.

Thank you. Exactly so. And I'm saying that as someone who's not a huge fan of Takahiko, but who does enjoy what he brings to the ice.

Though many Chinese fans are not keen on Chan due to earlier reputation sabotage, the young Chinese skaters surely look up to him even though Kozuka is much more popular in China. I've not read of Kozuka as a skating role model in Chinese. The French commentators, OTOH, are the biggest gushers of Chan, even if Joubert fans hate him. Chan has already been declared the best in skating history there. Skating pratically doesn't exist in another language I know but no skater's view in that language would make any press anyway.

Secondly, I don't seek bad press on Kozuka or interpret info negatively as I've been a big fan of Kozuka. My enthusiasm is not so obvious as 1) I'm unable to get or bring much information on him due to the language barrier and 2) I don't need to defend him like I do Chan. Kozuka is doublessly quite inspiring to young Japanese skaters, but I am certain not as much as Takahashi. So, as far as his reputation is concerned, I think it's more among fans than judges who already rate him as #1 Japanese skater but somehow his status/reputation cannot match Takahashi's in people's hearts. Maybe the same intengible factor has some effect on the judges too, reflecting in his PCS. i.e. he himself does not project a status of being number 1, in Japan or the World, the kind of energy lesser skaters (footwork and transition wise, for PCS) like Joubert and Plushenko project. Maybe that's what is meant by the commend of the ice? Kozuka is shy and humble, and he is deferential to his elders, Takahashi and Oda, per Japanese culture and the mindset likely is carried onto competition ice. He has also said to not like to perform though he loves skating. However, I think and hope this last year he's been inspired and encouraged much by his experiences. He's more expressive in show performances these days so that may happen for him on ice too.

I honestly don't know how to respond to this; you're missing my point. I don't want to get into virtual arguments, but why does the desire to "defend" Chan so often end up in your diminishing the skating and accomplishments of other skaters just to show the Greatness of Patrick? Why can't other skaters be great, too, but in their own way? Are the digs at Kozuka, Joubert and Plushenko necessary? Does this have to be some kind of constant competition on and off the ice?

I've personally read more ice dancers say they look up to D/W than to V/M. Does this mean D/W are more important and better? Maybe it says more about my reading material. Or about the preferences of specific skaters. Or about whose style they think they can emulate or enjoy on a personal level. Maybe it means nothing at all, other than different people like different skaters for different reasons.

Suggesting that Kozuka is not as popular (in Japan or anywhere else) as Takahashi is like saying Joubert has had a bigger impact in France than Amodio. Takahashi is a very successful veteran skater who's blossomed into a wonderful performer. But how long did it take him to build up the reputation he now enjoys? He spent quite a few years in senior before really breaking through and finding his way as a performer. Now, would Chan have enjoyed the same level of popularity and scoring he has for the past several years had Buttle said in 2008 that winning Worlds had inspired him to continue rather than retire? Be honest with yourself; with Buttle as the reigning Canadian world champion, I bet Chan would have been placed in the role of inconsistent up and comer who would have to wait until the next Olympic cycle for top marks - exactly what happened to Kozuka. The 2008-9 season could have unfolded very differently with Jeffrey in the mix, and this would have affected Chan's career trajectory and how he was viewed by both judges and fellow skaters, then and now. Maybe we would have been discussing how he can catch up with Kozuka! Give Kozuka time - he's doing things his own way, and it doesn't have to be the same way Chan did it. He'll get there, or he won't. But he doesn't need to be like anyone else. He needs to be Kozuka. Only more consistent.

As an aside, I think you overstate both Chan's popularity and the dislike toward him. I once again suspect confirmation bias is at play. I can't think of many Joubert fans who "hate" Patrick, though quite a few don't much enjoy watching him and were very unhappy with the 2009 comments. A lot of people, Joubert fans and otherwise, don't relate to Chan's skating, or find him overmarked, and are happy to discuss this. That's not hate, that's debate, and it's fine. On the flip side, some skaters are inspired by Chan's style and career and others have other sources of inspiration. The French media are not a bunch of Joubert cheerleaders and they are also not all convinced that Chan is the greatest. Skating is not about absolutes and there are so many different opinions; why not acknowledge this? And then you can present your opinion without getting all competitive and defensive about it (you can look to Dorispulaski's posts on D/W as inspiration).

 

[jettasian]

There was a lot of hype around him from a very early point.

You can only generate hype if you got the goods.

In addition, Patrick became the Canadian number 1 when Jeff retired, which made him more visible and got him better marks, while the situation with the Japanese skaters was far less settled.

A year before that at National, Buttle was #1 and Chan was a new kid. Chan was able to beat him. So it has nothing to do with who's more visible or the status of the skater.

Finally, I can think of one skater who came right out and said Kozuka should have scored higher in Moscow, and specifically mentioned skating skills compared to Patrick.

A comment from a former pair partner.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Buttercup, I think you are the one taking things too personally and doing a lot of projections of my motives. I state facts to support outcomes that we are discussing in this thread. They are not digs, or need defending in the context of purpose of the post. E.g. It would be OT to examine why Takahashi is larger than life and hotter than Kozuka. Saying Kozuka is not as big a hero as Takahashi is not a put down on his skating abilities, particuarly his PCS under discussion. It is brought up as a possible cause of his lower PCS compared to the highest scorers, Takahashi and Chan. Wasn't I bashed as anti-Takahashi before?

When I said French commentators gushing over Chan, it's also a fact, nothing to do with how the fans feel, and especially nothing to do with how you feel. I have also specified I wasn't discussing fans' feelings here, except when there might be the same basis for similar feelings from the judges as well. PCS are handed out by judges, not fans.

Just to explain a little of how my observations were stated. Defending myself or expecting a fair read of my posts from you is futile.

 

[Bluebonnet]

I actually don't think skaters must have a distinct style; the whole point of Savchenko and Szolkowy is their range as performers and ability to do very different things. That diversity is their style, in a sense. With Chan, I've not seen either a developing personal style or much range as a performer. The predictable music choices aren't helping much. Kozuka does have more of a definable style, IMO, and he's tried to expand beyond it occasionally (not always successfully).

Agree partly. One doesn't have to have a specific style to take him/her down the path. Like Johnny Weir, he has a distinct style. But later years, I've found that that unique style was his limit. He tried unsuccessfully in 2006-07 years to expand it. I haven't found Chan's style yet. But I am quite amazed by the contrast styles he has shown in Take Five and Aranjuez. Quite a new range on performance and presentation abilities Chan has displayed this year. On the contrary, I find Takahashi's famous style has not changed one bit. That has become a more obvious weakness for him actually. He can't change style. He used his hip-hop Swan Lake style in all these programs there after. Kozuka hasn't shown different style either.

 

[jettasian]

Kozuka could have dominated the entire 2008-2009 season if he went for a more CoP-friendly layout like Patrick Chan did that season. Kozuka had the most difficult program of that entire season: Quad, 3Axel+3Toe combination, 3Axel at the VERY END of the program, transitions going into every other jump of the program...and unfortunately those Quad and 3Axel passes only hindered his score because of how they made him less consistent. If he had instead structured his program like Patrick Chan, with an easier 3Axel-2Toe combination and the second 3Axel right at the halfway point of the program and a 2Axel instead of a 4Toe, then he probably would have been able to skate it cleanly all season long and he never would have been beaten the entire season.

Very bold statments. And yes, big IF! It's almost like saying IF Chan didn't injured hisself before the Olympic and IF Chan got his quads working, he would have won the Olympic.

Not only that your statments are just exaggeration, you failed to see that even "easier" programs can make mistakes too. Any skater can fall on a simple 2A. The ice is slippery. There's no such thing as if he has gone for the "eaiser" program, he will dominate and beat everyone else.

And even with Chan's "easier" program, Chan still had to skate well. Heck, anyone still had to skate well to win.

People tend to focus more on the superficial, such as the notion that skaters who look down at the ice deserve lower PCS. It doesn't matter how brilliantly that kind of introspective demeanor reflects the music, some people will always just see it as a weakness.

Well that same goes to some other people who only focus on how many mistakes Chan makes each skate and therefore, should not win, rather than his great skate.

 

[Buttercup]

Agree partly. One doesn't have to have a specific style to take him/her down the path. Like Johnny Weir, he has a distinct style. But later years, I've found that that unique style was his limit. He tried unsuccessfully in 2006-07 years to expand it. I haven't found Chan's style yet. But I am quite amazed by the contrast styles he has shown in Take Five and Aranjuez. Quite a new range on performance and presentation abilities Chan has displayed this year. On the contrary, I find Takahashi's famous style has not changed one bit. That has become a more obvious weakness for him actually. He can't change style. He used his hip-hop Swan Lake style in all these programs there after. Kozuka hasn't shown different style either.

I kind of agree with you re Takahashi - there are skaters with greater range than him. Disagree that he's been rehashing the techno swan, La Strada and Blues for Klook are nothing like that program. Whether his programs work for someone or not - and for me it's a mix of yes and no - he is a very good performer.

(my favorite of the Japanese guys is Hanyu)

A comment from a former pair partner.

Let me guess: you did not click on the article link.

 

[Jaana]

I don't see anything wrong with his attitude. He has his goals set and working hard to achieve them. And since his score is the highest, so he set his sight to break his own score, so I don't see the problem there.

I could not agree more....

 

[burntBREAD]

A comment from a former pair partner.

John Kerr is an ice dancer.

 

[jettasian]

With Chan, I've not seen either a developing personal style or much range as a performer. The predictable music choices aren't helping much. Kozuka does have more of a definable style, IMO, and he's tried to expand beyond it occasionally (not always successfully).

I'm not sure what do you mean by predictable music choices. His Take Five is very different than anything else he has done before. On the other hand, I find Kozuka's always same old, same old.

Now, would Chan have enjoyed the same level of popularity and scoring he has for the past several years had Buttle said in 2008 that winning Worlds had inspired him to continue rather than retire? Be honest with yourself; with Buttle as the reigning Canadian world champion, I bet Chan would have been placed in the role of inconsistent up and comer who would have to wait until the next Olympic cycle for top marks - exactly what happened to Kozuka. The 2008-9 season could have unfolded very differently with Jeffrey in the mix, and this would have affected Chan's career trajectory and how he was viewed by both judges and fellow skaters, then and now. Maybe we would have been discussing how he can catch up with Kozuka!

These are just IFS ANDS or BUTS. And be honest with yourself, what makes you think that Chan won't surpass Buttle?? Chan beat Buttle at National. Why do you think Buttle retired right away after World? He knew Chan might catch up and surpass him.

As an aside, I think you overstate both Chan's popularity and the dislike toward him. I once again suspect confirmation bias is at play.

There's always bias on both ends, the ones who like Chan and the ones who dislike Chan.

 

[jettasian]

Let me guess: you did not click on the article link.

No, I did not. I thought you quoted it from the article

Performance of the night for me was Taka Kozuka, my one time pairs partner.

so I thought whoever commented was Kozuka's one time pairs partner. My bad.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Chan has consistently expressed that getting into the Guiness Book has meant more to him than the Worlds title and also that having the title and the records set him free to persue his own goals in skating, partly also because of being more mature and in charge. The records were unintended results but seem to have spurred him on for achievements outside of winning titles. I think winning is still an important goal but not the primary motivation for him at this point. Scoring wise, he's aiming for 300 to set as the perfect 6.0 of CoP, so if he could one day do that or close to it, it's completely doubtful that anybody could beat him on that day.

With this mindset, he's quite free of the normal kind of mental pressure during competitions, unlike the chasers. As much as we are discussing this, I don't know if chasing Chan is in Kozuka's head or a motivation as I haven't heard such from himself, while Oda and Takahashi have shown indications of Chan getting to their heads. Chan, OTOH, is not reactionary but stays focused on his own goals. To me this is ironically a big advantage in competition success.

A source of my take on Chan's curent mindset: Championship win has Chan in full control

eta. I do wish I could read similar interviews of the Japanese skaters, so I hope our Japanese member would bring them here and not mind the work of translating. So far, I've found whatever brought here extremely interesting. I like to have my own impressions and interpretations from the original words, or as original as can be, and to have a better understanding of these super achievers.

 

[Boeing787]

In fact Kozuka once said to Japanese media that he didn't want to rank behind Chan. It's a given that these guys are competitive!

 

[Violet Bliss]

In fact Kozuka once said to Japanese media that he didn't want to rank behind Chan. It's a given that these guys are competitive!

Good for him! :thumbsup:

 

[Buttercup]

I'm not sure what do you mean by predictable music choices. His Take Five is very different than anything else he has done before. On the other hand, I find Kozuka's always same old, same old.

I meant that Lori Nichol saves her original ideas for Carolina Kostner. If she ever breaks out the Shostakovitch for Chan - and if he manages a credible interpretation - I'll be more impressed.

Kozuka is skating to Hisaishi music! He should be given credit for that, as Joe Hisaishi's work is sadly underused by skaters. Can some please skate to the Mononoke Symphonic Suite already?

There's always bias on both ends, the ones who like Chan and the ones who dislike Chan.

Very true. Confirmation bias is something we all engage in at times, as well as other forms of cognitive bias. Social cognition is an interesting subject for sure.

No, I did not. I thought you quoted it from the article so I thought whoever commented was Kozuka's one time pairs partner. My bad.

I don't think Takahiko ever did pairs, other than that EX with Mao. I may be wrong though. I wonder if there's video of his performance with John Kerr?

 

[Boeing787]

Patrick beat Jeff when he was only 17. Even if Jeff hadn't retired the following season, it's not a safe bet he could have regained his Canadian title. Jeff was not consistent with his 3A and he had past his peak physically. There was a reason he retired when OG was only 18 months away.

 

[Boeing787]

I meant that Lori Nichol saves her original ideas for Carolina Kostner. If she ever breaks out the Shostakovitch for Chan - and if he manages a credible interpretation - I'll be more impressed.

The fact is Patrick doesn't care if the music has been used before by other skaters, as long as he likes it. He believes he is able to make audience to forget about what they saw before when he is skating. At least he did the magic to me.

 

[Bluebonnet]

Buttle has made a very smart decision.

 

[pangtongfan]

Buttle should have continued. Lysacek ended up winning the World title and Olympic Gold without a quad. Those titles would have been Jeff's most likely.