How much should U.S. Nationals count for World team selection?

[janetfan]

Absolutely. Unless there are monkey tricks with the scoring because somebody decides there should be a real "lady" on the team.
Look at it this way. The USFSA wanted a "lady" on the World team. And as a result, they got two.

What's interesting is that there are 2 arguments going on here. We are arguing over how the USFSA should pick a World team. That's all well and good. But we are also arguing over how they actually do pick a team. That should not be happening.

I disagree Bob.
Here's the deal - if Caroline wins Gold or Silver ar Natls she will be on the Natl team and skate at Worlds.
If she finishes third or lower she will not be selected for the Natl team. Caroline and her coach know this beyond any doubt.

The question for Caroline fans is can she place 1st or second at Natls?
That is the same question for Mirai, Rachael, Alissa, and the others.

Making the Natl team is clearly defineable and the skaters all know what the deal is.

 

[PolymerBob]

I disagree Bob.
Making the Natl team is clearly defineable and the skaters all know what the deal is.

If the only criterion for winning Nationals is what happens on the ice, then this is correct. I'm just not entirely sure this is the case.

 

[Mathman]

If the only criterion for winning Nationals is what happens on the ice, then this is correct. I'm just not entirely sure this is the case.

Politicking and biased judging at U.S. Nationals is always a potential problem.

However, I don't see how taking the decision out of the hands of the judges and technical callers, who work in full public view and without anonymity, and turning it over instead to "the committee" will help to insure honesty and objectivity.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I disagree Bob.
Here's the deal - if Caroline wins Gold or Silver ar Natls she will be on the Natl team and skate at Worlds.
If she finishes third or lower she will not be selected for the Natl team. Caroline and her coach know this beyond any doubt.

The question for Caroline fans is can she place 1st or second at Natls?
That is the same question for Mirai, Rachael, Alissa, and the others.

Making the Natl team is clearly defineable and the skaters all know what the deal is.

As I said before, there is no Kwan, Cohen, Kirk for the Special Committee to rubber stamp them. Did they really have to prove it at their Nationals?

I don't think some posters understand the impact of sending thestrongest Team to the Worlds. for me, the Nationals are NOT clearly defineable. To think otherwise would be hogwash. That definition does not go beyond the best skaters that night and only that night, and only how well the podium skaters can do in their home area. Will they appear that strong in the international scene?

To get to the topic of this season and not continue the discussion about the Nats v. the Committee:

I am looking to increase the eligible US Ladies from 2 to 3 next season, and it will take STONG Ladies to do that. The international field is heavy with good skaters. Is the US Nats the only way we can select such competitors?

 

[R.D.]

Joe is right. It's the point I've been trying to make all along...gone are the days where it was obvious who to send to worlds, and the virtual guarantee that these ladies would finish in the top 3 at US Nats (in any given order). Now, we have more capable ladies than we have World spots. IMO, time to move beyond looking ONLY at Nats results to determine what will be our STRONGEST team.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Joe is right. It's the point I've been trying to make all along...gone are the days where it was obvious who to send to worlds, and the virtual guarantee that these ladies would finish in the top 3 at US Nats (in any given order). Now, we have more capable ladies than we have World spots. IMO, time to move beyond looking ONLY at Nats results to determine what will be our STRONGEST team.

I think you are correct RD. Some fans against the Committee could lose their hopes to see their favorite at Worlds, if they are favorites to win gold or silver at the Nats.

If the Select Committee is the only means for choosing the Team, then I worry about how is that Committee set up - not so much with crooked members but moreso are they the best to analyze the situation.

 

[mskater93]

...gone are the days where it was obvious who to send to worlds, and the virtual guarantee that these ladies would finish in the top 3 at US Nats (in any given order). Now, we have more capable ladies than we have World spots. IMO, time to move beyond looking ONLY at Nats results to determine what will be our STRONGEST team.

If you want to guarantee 3 spots for next year's Worlds, get one of the top Japanese Ladies or Yuna Kim to skate for the US. Those are the ones likeliest to make the magic 13 along with one of the capable ladies who are already competitive in the US. Otherwise, how do you guarantee you have the two strongest skaters who are going to put it out there the week of Worlds? Rachel may be good at the GPF and bomb at Nationals and have more shin splint problems. Alissa's scores may continue to decrease from her first event as expectations and pressure on her mount. Mirai may have a recurrence of her foot injury and lose more training time. Caroline may get her act together a bit more but her fall season was very questionable. Ashley may get sick again and lose more training time... Which two of these ladies (plus any suprises) are the strongest team? What if someone comes up through the qualifying ranks this year and finishes in the top 2 (someone who DIDN'T get GP assignments...)? This is why you have to see them all head to head and see who has the best mental fortitude when you tell them this is it - win or go home...

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

To see how Japan selects their Team for Worlds, check out Sorcerer's post in the Worlds Folder. (I can't manage a link here)

The Nationals are considered along with other criteria notably the GPs. They analyze beyond their Nats!

 

[R.D.]

If you want to guarantee 3 spots for next year's Worlds, get one of the top Japanese Ladies or Yuna Kim to skate for the US. Those are the ones likeliest to make the magic 13 along with one of the capable ladies who are already competitive in the US.

Well, that's not an option so we have to confine ourselves to stricly American skaters rather than imports.

Rachel may be good at the GPF and bomb at Nationals and have more shin splint problems. Alissa's scores may continue to decrease from her first event as expectations and pressure on her mount. Mirai may have a recurrence of her foot injury and lose more training time. Caroline may get her act together a bit more but her fall season was very questionable. Ashley may get sick again and lose more training time... Which two of these ladies (plus any suprises) are the strongest team? What if someone comes up through the qualifying ranks this year and finishes in the top 2 (someone who DIDN'T get GP assignments...)? This is why you have to see them all head to head and see who has the best mental fortitude...

Those are all valid points, and yes, I agree. I'm not saying the results of the Nationals should be downplayed or disregarded. I support it being the cornerstone of the decision process...HOWEVER, I think there are situations which call for more intense scrutiny of overall season results since the two skaters most likely to place at Worlds may not necessarily be the top 2. Still, things will be clearer after the GPF.

 

[janetfan]

As I said before, there is no Kwan, Cohen, Kirk for the Special Committee to rubber stamp them. Did they really have to prove it at their Nationals?

I don't think some posters understand the impact of sending thestrongest Team to the Worlds. for me, the Nationals are NOT clearly defineable. To think otherwise would be hogwash. That definition does not go beyond the best skaters that night and only that night, and only how well the podium skaters can do in their home area. Will they appear that strong in the international scene?

To get to the topic of this season and not continue the discussion about the Nats v. the Committee:

I am looking to increase the eligible US Ladies from 2 to 3 next season, and it will take STONG Ladies to do that. The international field is heavy with good skaters. Is the US Nats the only way we can select such competitors?

I respectfully disagree and will cite the most important events in skating to prove your thesis is pure hogwash.

Let's say Yuna would have bombed at the Olympics. Besides you.....(and an army of Yuna fans) who else thinks she would desrve the OGM for a bad performance. We all know she was a dominant skater for the year leading up to Vancouver. Should skating become as you suggest - totally reputation based? Sorry but double hogwash .......

The thing is - there comes a point when the little GP type events - created to kill Pro skating - have to be put aside and a REAL competition must take place. That is, unless you can't give up your "artistry" and pretty costumes. Or your apparent fandom that prevents you from wanting to see a true competition.

What are you afraid of - that your favorite will have an off-night?

Sorry bubba, but we all know the best team does not always win the World Cup or the Super Bowl. Part of the mystique of sport is that there comes a time - a moment when everything has to be layed on the line. It is what real fans live for and pageant fans want to change.

I think you know alot about skating and think you would be a good member of the "Hall of Fame" committee. As to being part of real sports and competition - your own words show you reject it.

So hopefully there will be no committe spot for you since their job is to basically rubber stamp Natls - and avoid bringing politics and favoritism in place of pure competition.

The fairest way to pick a Natl team , particularly in a big federation is to let the skaters competet for it.

Sorry, but you sound like "Pissev junior."

Thanks, but no thanks. I prefer a more sporting and American system to determine a Natl team.
For me - there is nothing on earth better than a a pure competition when it comes to sports.

The problem with skating - as best identified with your opinions is that Americans don't trust a "committee" and the backromm dealings that come with it.

I think your case is weak, and all we have to do is look at the state of the Russian federation these days to see a lack of competition at their own Natls helped bury them.

IMHO Japan would be better off letting their Ladies skate for the Natl team spots - and not just gifting a place to Mao should she continue with her lack of good form.

We saw what happened when Miki was gifted a spot she did not earn on the ice - an Olympic meltdown of legendary proportions. To be honest it was not just bad politics - but pretty unfair to a young Miki and beyond question unfair to the girls who beat her fair and square.

 

[Tonichelle]

is it a sign of the apocolypse when RD agrees with Joe (and vice versa)? Or is it just the holiday spirit being brought forth?

 

[janetfan]

is it a sign of the apocolypse when RD agrees with Joe (and vice versa)? Or is it just the holiday spirit being brought forth?

Apparenty when Joe and I agree it will signal "the end of time"

 

[PolymerBob]

We saw what happened when Miki was gifted a spot she did not earn on the ice - an Olympic meltdown of legendary proportions. To be honest it was not just bad politics - but pretty unfair to a young Miki and beyond question unfair to the girls who beat her fair and square.

Well, are we talking 2006 or 2010? This year, Miki was given an Olympic spot due to her GP performance. Oddly enough, there was a condition that she show up at Japanese Nationals in order to claim her spot. So she showed up.

I have no problem with "win or go home". But I would like that one all-powerful competition to be decided by what happens ...... um ...... at that competition. In fact, I could accept any system as long as nothing happens in secret.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think you know alot about skating and think you would be a good member of the "Hall of Fame" committee. As to being part of real sports and competition - your own words show you reject it.

That's all about me and not about what I believe in as the strongest team. No?

So hopefully there will be no committe spot for you since The fairest way to pick a Natl team , particularly in a big federation is to let the skaters competet for it.

Sorry, but you sound like "Pissev junior."

Again you are name calling and not sticking with the topic. that's also worth a Forum demerit. I'm sticking with my opinion and not saying what I think of your faux superiority.

Thanks, but no thanks. I prefer a more sporting and American system to determine a Natl team.
For me - there is nothing on earth better than a a pure competition when it comes to sports.

Now that's a valid opinion, which I can respect, and disagree with. I don't have to insult you.

The problem with skating - as best identified with your opinions is that Americans don't trust a "committee" and the backromm dealings

Please direct that to Mathman who said that.

IMHO Japan would be better off letting their Ladies skate for the Natl team spots - and not just gifting a place to Mao should she continue with her lack of good form.

I suggest you check out Sorcerers post in the Worlds Folder on how Japan selects the strong team. It'll blow your mind that they put the GPs first before their Nationals. FYI. Mao is not in the GPs or didn't you know that?

We saw what happened when Miki was gifted a spot she did not earn on the ice - an Olympic meltdown of legendary proportions. To be honest it was not just bad politics - but pretty unfair to a young Miki and beyond question unfair to the girls who beat her fair and square.

Hogwash! No one is talking about Reputation. It's about How to select the strongest team to face the strongest non American strong skaters and again, check out Sorcerer's post on how Japan selects it's skater for the Worlds, in the World Folder.

AND PLEASE NO MORE INSULTS. tHEY ARE NOT NECESSARY IN dEBATING 101.

 

[mskater93]

And how do you defend that Miki was NOT the highest ranked skater last year from Japan at Olympics and Worlds? What about the gifted spot she got based on the other nebulous rules for choosing their team in 2006 when she had an EPIC meltdown? What about situations where some skaters skate well early in the season and fade whereas some start slow and do better (peak) around Nationals and Worlds. Right now, Alissa is the "highest ranking" lady. Does that mean she should be given a spot on the World team for 2011? It was her National Championship that sparked a lot of this debate....

 

[Mathman]

What about the gifted spot [Miki Ando] got based on the other nebulous rules for choosing their team in 2006...

Actually, the problem was that the rules were not nebulous. The Japanese Federation had a precisely defined point system -- so many points for such-and-such placement in this or that event. Most points wins.

When they invented the system, Miki was way out in front. But after a fall season that was so-so at best, her point total was starting to slip. When it came to Japanese Nationals, where she finished 6th, the only way to save her was for Yoshie Onda to place ahead of Yukari Nakano. Otherwise Nakano would end up with more points than Ando.

Whew! A close call. Onda was placed fourth, Nakano fifth, despite howls of protest from the onlookers. The charge was that Miki had a lot of corporate sponsors and the Japanese federation would lose money if Miki did not make the Olympic team.

As Joe points out above, refering to Sorcerer's post in the Worlds folder, the Japanese federation apparently learned their lesson. Now they have gone to a nebulous system of "we will take these competitions into account" -- but in the end, we will send whoever we like.

 

[R.D.]

^ And also a perfectly valid reason for USFS to resist kowtowing to the BigWigs at NBC and the Media and not put Cohen on the team despite her showing she clearly wasn't ready. That's one situation where the Committee got it right. The real debate was Nagasu or Wagner, and Wagner had already been to worlds and bombed. So they made the right call by sending the top 2.

I wonder if there is a repeat of 2009 this year, whether there will be a change in team selection in the future.

 

[Mathman]

I wonder if there is a repeat of 2009 this year, whether there will be a change in team selection in the future.

First, I think there is a pretty good chance of an exact[/i repeat of 2009. Alissa skates a clean short program and is way ahead, She falls twice in the LP but still gets enough PCSs to hold off the others.

Rachael lands seven triples for second place. Mirai falters. The team is Alissa and Rachael.

At Worlds...

Well, you get the idea.

But seriously, I think the handwriting is already on the wall as far as moving in the direction that you and Joe are advocating. The USFSA gave quite a bit of publicity last year to its "new" (although it wasn't really) list of prioritized events that the committee is supposed to consider.

If they had no intention of ever considering them, why would they go to the trouble of making a list?

So the committee may have the last laugh after all.

I still don't like it. I want to compete in the World Championship. Let me go to U.S. Nationals and skate for it. If I beat the other guy, how it is fair for a "committee" to come along behind me and say, "tough cookies, we are going to send the other guy anyway."

The USFSA has 170.000 members, representing 170 clibs. They sponsor hundreds of events and and support 900 learn to skate program. (I just looked this up. ) They ought to do the right thing and not obsess over formulas and committees and ISU events. Good guys always win!

Well, no, sometimes the bad guys win.

...Never mind.

 

[Tonichelle]

I always win.

 

[Mathman]

I always win.

Exactly! And were you made by a committee? No. QED.