How much should U.S. Nationals count for World team selection?

[janetfan]

Interesting thought, but that is exclusively in the domain of the ISU. A good topic, though. I would allow all the skaters at Worlds if they fall within the top 16 ranked by the ISU.

And what about the skaters who make the GPF? Rankings as we know are more about what the skater did for the past few seasons. The GP finalists are doing well in the current season, no?

If the GP wants to be taken for more than a pre-season skating festival shouldn't ISU increase the importance?

What good did it do for Ashley to make the GPF last season? US Skating's reward was to keep her off the Olympic team and ask her to go skate at JUNIOR worlds.

Does that sound like anybody but a few fans think the GP is really so important?
That is why it doesn't matter if Alissa bombs at the GPF. What is important is how well she skates at Natls and then if she makes the Natl team, how she does at Worlds.

If USA were to give a free ticket to Worlds for the highest GPF placement the way Japan does it would make the GP series much more important to US skaters. As it stands now it is little more than a warmup for the more important competitions later in the season.

There is a good chance Alissa might finish as the top USA Lady at the GPF.
She is not your pick for the Natl team. Would you change you mind if Alissa medals at the GPF?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

While the majority seems to be that the results of the US Nationals will tell us who the strongest Team is to send to the Worlds, other feel there is more to think about. Also some fans see the US Nats as the ultimate for achieving the most out of a competition. Competitors will feel satisfaction on placing in the Nats, yes! but do we assume they will not be disappointed if failing to podium at Worlds because they have their US medal? I doubt that. Competition is not about being there as all 'fairness' fans think is the most important. It is about winning.

The results of the US Nats may well be those who are not only chosen but happen to be the best of the lot. Nothing wrong with that, but I can not accept anything less, and I am looking for the possibility of 13points finish by the US Ladies. I think it is very possible with a good US Team. We have two skaters in the GPFinals that should be looked at as possible US Team Members. No?

[as I remember it. Todd was given a bye to the Olys and Mitchell was given a bye to the Worlds. I think Wiley was safe to go to the Olys and he retired after that. Nothing to do with usurping by Mitchell.]

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

And what about the skaters who make the GPF? Rankings as we know are more about what the skater did for the past few seasons. The GP finalists are doing well in the current season, no?

Obviously the entire 2010 GPs should be the up-to-minute skating prowess because there are more exposures to what they do. The Final should be an eye opener because it took more than one skate to get there and all skaters were of the international ilk. It should be taken into account as should the US Nats.

If the GP wants to be taken for more than a pre-season skating festival shouldn't ISU increase the importance?

It is the governing body of figure skating. Again, I like it; and some do not, but I'll betcha likes and dislikes will watch it.

If USA were to give a free ticket to Worlds for the highest GPF placement the way Japan does it would make the GP series much more important to US skaters. As it stands now it is little more than a warmup for the more important competitions later in the season.

I happen to like competitive skating and not interested in Galas. The GPs (and Icenetwork) give me that opportunity to view the best of what the Feds want us to see. Let's not pamper the skaters because it is the biggest comp of the early season. It follows the US Nats within a month. I suppose this little time is enough to fix that flutz.

There is a good chance Alissa might finish as the top USA Lady at the GPF.
She is not your pick for the Natl team. Would you change you mind if Alissa medals at the GPF?

I divide skaters into 2 categories: Cometitive and nonCompetitive. NonCompeitives do not mean they will not win but more like how often will they? I will be looking closely at the GPF with Alissa as well as with Rachael, and again at nationals. I'm not a one win takes all.
The GPs and Final are uppermost in my mind. Happy to see two US Ladies are competing in the finals. btw, I find the Men's event more competitive and very unhappy that there are no US in the Finals. I do classify Abbott as noncompetitive. Still rooting for Armin at US Nats.

 

[ivy]

I think the strongest countries should be allowed to send 5 skaters to Worlds. Weak developing countries should need to send their skaters to qualifying events to cut down the # of frankly useless skaters in a World event.

I totally agree. In fact I think Worlds should be the top 36 (or whatever number) skaters/teams in each discipline, regardless of nationality - more like tennis. It seems unlikely to happen and I'm sure smaller countries would be unhappy. But larger markets - like the US or Japan would probably be more invested in Worlds if they had more skaters there. That might drive up viewership and revenue - something the the ISU seems to worry about

 

[gkelly]

Obviously the entire 2010 GPs should be the up-to-minute skating prowess because there are more exposures to what they do. The Final should be an eye opener because it took more than one skate to get there and all skaters were of the international ilk. It should be taken into account as should the US Nats.

According to the published guidelines, it is taken into account, but Nationals counts for more.

I would never want to see international competitions count for more than Nationals, because just having the opportunity to compete at the fall internationals depends so much on how one did last year. It doesn't always give the opportunity for someone who is skating well this year to make their case.

I totally agree. In fact I think Worlds should be the top 36 (or whatever number) skaters/teams in each discipline, regardless of nationality - more like tennis. It seems unlikely to happen and I'm sure smaller countries would be unhappy. But larger markets - like the US or Japan would probably be more invested in Worlds if they had more skaters there. That might drive up viewership and revenue - something the the ISU seems to worry about

Makes sense to me if and only if there are plenty of opportunities for skaters to earn their way in if they're skating well . . . whether they were 12th best in their own country last year and made a big improvement this year or whether they're the first skater from their country ever to reach a world-class standard and this is their first year of being old enough or good enough to deserve senior top-36 slot.

This would be a topic for a different thread, since it addresses ISU rules instead of US Figure Skating rules.

Do we want to start that thread?

 

[Nadine]

I like your last post, Joesitz, especially the very last paragraph ~ right on! :thumbsup:

That said, I also agree with you about no US man making the GPF, 1,000 & 1 depressions.

 

[janetfan]

I would never want to see international competitions count for more than Nationals, because just having the opportunity to compete at the fall internationals depends so much on how one did last year. It doesn't always give the opportunity for someone who is skating well this year to make their case.

Yes, that is the best reason I have read about the importance and true value of Natls.

I would further add it also gives a skater who got off to a shaky start at the GP (maybe an injury was involved - or they were in two very competitive events) a chance to show they are peaking and ready for Worlds.

Pogue mentioned the "flukiness" of the GP which seems undeniable. What responsible committee could overlook this factor and not consider it carefully for what it is?

 

[Mathman]

I am starting to get confused.

We have the Grand Prix Finals and we have U.S. Nationals.

Most of the posters on this thread have declaimed that one of them is real competition and the other is trivial pageantry. But which is which?

 

[janetfan]

Only one of the events has all of the top US Ladies competing against each for all of the marbles.

The other event is comprised of Intl skaters whose qualifying to a certain extent is greatly determined by luck and chance.
"Flukiness" was used and seems to fit well. :yes:

We can all make our own judgement on which competition is a truer test for US Ladies.

 

[PolymerBob]

I am starting to get confused.

We have the Grand Prix Finals and we have U.S. Nationals.

Most of the posters on this thread have declaimed that one of them is real competition and the other is trivial pageantry. But which is which?

I think that both are importent, and could be used to pick a World team.

 

[silverlake22]

A few things to think about.

1.) The USFSA did not decide whether Christina would compete on the JGP or SGP this season, Christina and Brian did. She had 1 assignment on the senior GP gauranteed due to her medal at the JGPF and likely could have gotten a 2nd assignment. So the fact that she competed on the JGP this season had nothing to do with the USFSA, they did not decide anything for her. She is competing at senior nationals and therefore should should be treated the same as everyone else (who is old enough, that is) competing at the senior ladies event at nationals, meaning if she places in the top 2, she should be named to the world team.

2.) In regards to Alissa, she has a tendency to choke under pressure, and at nationals she'll be under pressure because World Team spots are at stake, whereas at the Grand Prix Final there is really no pressure, if she wins/medals then that's great, if she comes in last at least she still qualified for the final and so it doesn't hurt her any. So if Alissa does well at the GPF and places ahead of Rachael, but then doesn't skate as well at nationals, I'd see it as the pressure getting to her at nationals which would clue the USFSA in that she shouldn't bump someone off the world team due to this ongoing issue. Now maybe if Alissa wins the GPF in a convincing fashion and Rachael is last, and then at nationals Rachael is 2nd and Alissa 3rd but the scores are close, then maybe, maybe the USFSA would name Alissa and the 1st place finisher to the World Team instead of Rachael, but that's the only way I think the 2nd place finisher will get bumped off the team. Any other result at the GPF and I think the 2nd place finisher will go.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

The Worlds is not a local country competition. I watch the GPs closely - not just for medals - but for skaters who can handle the presure of international competition, and skate their best. There is a lot of information showing up in the GP events and a knock out skate by any US skater at the Finals will have my blessing for the Worlds. If that Finalist does well at Nats, well why not?

The USFS has shown many times that the results of the Nats to be the strongest team for the Worlds, I just dont buy it. It does create pressure on its contestants who want to go to Worlds, and its a good business move. Is that enough to select the Team? No one will hold their breath for the announcement by the Select Committee. It's in the Results.

 

[Layfan]

The Worlds is not a local country competition. I watch the GPs closely - not just for medals - but for skaters who can handle the presure of international competition, and skate their best. There is a lot of information showing up in the GP events and a knock out skate by any US skater at the Finals will have my blessing for the Worlds. If that Finalist does well at Nats, well why not?

The USFS has shown many times that the results of the Nats to be the strongest team for the Worlds, I just dont buy it. It does create pressure on its contestants who want to go to Worlds, and its a good business move. Is that enough to select the Team? No one will hold their breath for the announcement by the Select Committee. It's in the Results.

Just curious - and sorry if you have already been asked and have answered this. But you said your pick would be Rachael and Mirai and that you think they are the best U.S. ladies skaters... But Mirai didn't make the GP final. Alissa did. So under the system you would like to see in place, would you pick Alissa? Or if Mirai finishes third and Alissa second would you still pick Mirai? I mean, do you think Mirai's fourth place Olympic finish would be more important than than Alissa generally doing better than Mirai in this year's GP?

Of course, I have argued that whoever finishes 1-2 should go to worlds unless it's the weirdest of circumstances. And I still think that. But just to consider doing things another way - I think Alissa skating better this season trumps however Mirai did last year - especially if Mirai is still making mistakes at Nats...

(btw, I hope not I love Mirai and I'm really rooting for her to be on the team.)

 

[Mathman]

Only one of the events has all of the top US Ladies competing against each other for all of the marbles.

IMO this is the best argument for keeping the selection pocedure the way it is. Greensboro or bust!

However, I do note that you don't have to win at nationals to grab a big marble. Second place goes to Worlds just as big and herky as first place. So this diminishes the "do or die" aspect a little bit. You can "die" but still "do" after all.

According to the published guidelines, [the Grand Prix Final] is taken into account...

But in point of fact, has it ever occurred in the history of U.S. figure skating that the Grand Prix Final was "taken into account" in any way, shape or form? Maybe 2007-08 ladies? Meissner finished last in the Grand Prix Final and this gave her a boost over Katrina Hacker (6th at U.S. Nationals, to Kimmie's 7th)?

This is what has me wondering if in fact the USFSA is starting to lean a little in the direction of maybe making some chamges in the future. Why would they trumpet the importance of the Grand Prix Finals in their official publications if in sober fact they never have and never will pay the slightest attention to it?

I also agree with those posters who say that it is up to the ISU, not the USFSA, to elevate the Grand Prix Final to a qualifying event for Worlds. The ISU could kill two birds with one stone if they gave, say, the GP Finals podium a free pass to Worlds outside the national quotas. (So this year Japan gets to send 6 ladies and 6 men to worlds. )

 

[silverlake22]

Just curious - and sorry if you have already been asked and have answered this. But you said your pick would be Rachael and Mirai and that you think they are the best U.S. ladies skaters... But Mirai didn't make the GP final. Alissa did. So under the system you would like to see in place, would you pick Alissa? Or if Mirai finishes third and Alissa second would you still pick Mirai? I mean, do you think Mirai's fourth place Olympic finish would be more important than than Alissa generally doing better than Mirai in this year's GP?

Of course, I have argued that whoever finishes 1-2 should go to worlds unless it's the weirdest of circumstances. And I still think that. But just to consider doing things another way - I think Alissa skating better this season trumps however Mirai did last year - especially if Mirai is still making mistakes at Nats...

(btw, I hope not I love Mirai and I'm really rooting for her to be on the team.)

Mirai was coming off an injury, so I think her poor performance at CoC can be excused. I think the USFSA for sure wants Mirai on the World team as long as she can skate decently well at nationals. She is currently the best hope for a world medal and has the best international reputation among US ladies due to her good results at the Olympics and Worlds last season. She is also still young and will likely still be around and skating well in 2014. I don't think the same can be said of Alissa and Rachael, and maybe not even Ashley. So it makes sense to give Mirai the experience so she can continue to build her international reputation and distinguish herself as a favorite for World/GPF/4CC/Olympic medals in the coming seasons. The USFSA isn't done investing in/promoting Mirai yet, and likely won't be until after Sochi, but I do think the USFSA might be done with investing in/promoting Alissa and Rachael, and maybe even Ashley too, depending on if Gao and/or Zawadzki can outskate Ashley at this year's nationals.

 

[Mathman]

Mirai was coming off an injury, so I think her poor performance at CoC can be excused. I think the USFSA for sure wants Mirai on the World team as long as she can skate decently well at nationals. She is currently the best hope for a world medal and has the best international reputation among US ladies due to her good results at the Olympics and Worlds last season. She is also still young and will likely still be around and skating well in 2014. I don't think the same can be said of Alissa and Rachael, and maybe not even Ashley. So it makes sense to give Mirai the experience so she can continue to build her international reputation and distinguish herself as a favorite for World/GPF/4CC/Olympic medals in the coming seasons. The USFSA isn't done investing in/promoting Mirai yet, and likely won't be until after Sochi, but I do think the USFSA might be done with investing in/promoting Alissa and Rachael, and maybe even Ashley too, depending on if Gao and/or Zawadzki can outskate Ashley at this year's nationals.

So taking all this into account,

(a) Do you think the USFSA will instruct the judges to place Mirai first or second at Nationals?

(b) If Mirai does not finish first or second at Nationals do you think that the USFSA will send her to Worlds anyway?

In other words, what tangible form do you think this "supporting/promoting" of Mirai will take?

 

[Sylvia]

Psssst, "USFSA" isn't one individual.

 

[dorispulaski]

Mathman, you should have used the "Snark" emoticon there....

 

[Mathman]

Mathman, you should have used the "Snark" emoticon there....

Do we have one? Which one is it?

 

[Layfan]

Mirai was coming off an injury, so I think her poor performance at CoC can be excused. I think the USFSA for sure wants Mirai on the World team as long as she can skate decently well at nationals. She is currently the best hope for a world medal and has the best international reputation among US ladies due to her good results at the Olympics and Worlds last season. She is also still young and will likely still be around and skating well in 2014. I don't think the same can be said of Alissa and Rachael, and maybe not even Ashley. So it makes sense to give Mirai the experience so she can continue to build her international reputation and distinguish herself as a favorite for World/GPF/4CC/Olympic medals in the coming seasons. The USFSA isn't done investing in/promoting Mirai yet, and likely won't be until after Sochi, but I do think the USFSA might be done with investing in/promoting Alissa and Rachael, and maybe even Ashley too, depending on if Gao and/or Zawadzki can outskate Ashley at this year's nationals.

I pretty much agree with most of your points, Silverlake, but my question for Joe was hypothetical. It has nothing to do with what I think will or should happen at nationals.... I remembered that he thinks the best possible team is Rachael and Mirai - but as he is also arguing that international results should be taken into account so I just wondered how he reconciles that, seeing as how this season, Rachael and Alissa have done the best so far...

I'm sure USFSA would love to have Mirai on the team. However, I think she'll have to earn it like everyone else.

^ Mathman raises a good question. If Mirai is third, I just don't see USFSA choosing her over the silver or gold medalist - especially since if she finishes third it will mean that Mirai has not yet overcome her troubles this season and in no way could the selection committee comfortably predict she would do better at worlds than anyone else.

Maybe some think the judges will be inclined, consciously or not, to give Mirai especially high PCS - it is possible but that's a whole different can of worms than the one this thread has opened up...