How Should Junior Grand Prix Finalists be Selected?

[lariko]

Honestly, I dunno why inventing complicating schemes is in any way helping the actual elephant in the room, and it’s score inflation. Nobody ever likes scoring system in FS, it’s just what it is, and with the subjective portion of the score carrying more and more weight vs technical base, it will be even more of a problem. Skaters are starting to receive such a thick cushion in PCS in SP that carries less than half of technical saturation of FS, that they underperform in FS on TES, let alone win FS, and still win the competition, so long as the judges are willing to cushion PCS again in free. In the end, it is always possible to manipulate the score in the current system to determine the winner subjectively.

However, we already saw Levit score over 200, and that was at the start and in an event where all other scores were significantly lower, so there is some equalization from the get go.

In the end, I think that the six skaters who will make it into the final would be more or less the same as would have ended up if they went ‘by medal’. However, by medal, the winner of the second stage in men’s field could qualify with not a particularly strong performance, because gold carries so many points independently of field average scored at that event (or other measure of how able the competition was at each event).

I guess, you can prorate the winner score as percentage of the scores achieved at the event to see if they towered over the competition or were first among equals, and go from there…

 

[el henry]

Plenty of skaters qualify for JGPF without a "strong performance" because either the "class" of the field had a bad skate or they had a favorable judging panel. Sadly we are not going to address inconsistencies in judging in time for JGPF.

For me, using *only* scores, when scores have never ever been used, is highly unfair to the skaters who competed in Courchevel. Using only medals could be highly unfair to those who could not go to Courchevel.

A hybrid is a very simple solution. And fair to everyone. And who knows, maybe they'll use it in the future, which I think would be great. More skaters

 

[Weathergal]

They knew it could happen. On August 5 ISU published a communication. Here is a part of it

"Depending on the developments during the ISU Junior Grand Prix series, the ISU Council will evaluate if and how the ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating Final (scheduled to be held on December 9-12, 2021 in Japan), could be held by applying alternative qualification criteria. Such decision will be taken as soon as possible in consultation with all stakeholders also taking into account the sanitary situation in Japan and around the world, which is particularly sensitive for junior-aged Skaters."

Climb thanks for the information although the participants not knowing the rules in advance for qualifying to the final does still apply to a point - but at least, as you noted above, they knew of a possibility of an alternate method of calculation. But it's a minor point to my earlier post and doesn't really change anything IMHO. My hope is still a hybrid method to try to take into consideration the different groups of skaters as I mentioned earlier and that they'll expand the number of skaters/teams. For women, men, and dance, I hope they'll expand it from 6 to 8 or 9 skaters/teams. Pairs, of course, were not in the first two events.

 

[4everchan]

the solution I proposed btw, is not really something new in sport... If you look at track and field racing heats, often you get the top 2 or 3 of a heat to qualify automatically, then the field for the next round is defined by the remaining athletes with the best times. That takes into consideration the luck of the draw as some heats may be faster than others. So that's why, I proposed to honour every winner of a gold medal (some may win two, it doesn't matter), expand the field to two flights per discipline, and fill the remaining spots with the best scores... Not difficult to do, not unfair at all... in the end, I believe it should always be done like this, as it would minimize all the strategic entries with substitutes to the last minute that we see on the JGP.

 

[Andrea82]

And none of those GP skaters last year received any World ranking points.

But several European challenger events DID get points. Of course, no NA skaters could travel to Europe to attend those events, due to the pandemic.

A fair solution would have been no ranking points awarded for the fall season.

They didn't award World Standing points for the competitions (even for those who met the number of skaters/countries requirements) that took place last season except for Worlds.
The 2 Challengers (Nebelhorn and Budapest) counted for Season Bests. However, they also used 2019/20 SB for GP assignments.
The others counted for achieving minimum TES for Worlds (apart those which didn't get enough skaters or international officials). However, they added the possibility to send a video to give chances to skaters who couldn't move to attend many competitions.
So overall, there had been attempts to balance some of the disadvantages of those not able to attend competitions in Europe.

 

[TontoK]

OK, I'm jumping headfirst into a topic I really don't care about that much.

Aside from judging inconsistencies, one of the problems with "score only" is that performances early in the season haven't had the benefit of preparation time. I don't have any stats to back this up... but it makes sense that those scores would be lower. A November skater, compared to an August skater, has had more time to work on choreography and interpretation, as well as firm up new technical elements. On the other hand, I also see the problem this season with "placement only."

So, given that the ISU has lemons, I suggest they make lemonade. How about, for one year only, we have a GP Superfinal? Gold medalists from each event, plus the next six high scoring MEDALISTS at GP events. Limiting the scoring entry to medalists only prevents some home-cooking scenario that many seem to suspect.

Rather than one flight, have two. And, yes... someone is STILL going to be left out, but honestly... its the Junior Grand Prix, not the Olympic Games. My proposal is more fair to more skaters, and that's the best that can be hoped for.

 

[4everchan]

OK, I'm jumping headfirst into a topic I really don't care about that much.

Aside from judging inconsistencies, one of the problems with "score only" is that performances early in the season haven't had the benefit of preparation time. I don't have any stats to back this up... but it makes sense that those scores would be lower. A November skater, compared to an August skater, has had more time to work on choreography and interpretation, as well as firm up new technical elements. On the other hand, I also see the problem this season with "placement only."

So, given that the ISU has lemons, I suggest they make lemonade. How about, for one year only, we have a GP Superfinal? Gold medalists from each event, plus the next six high scoring MEDALISTS at GP events. Limiting the scoring entry to medalists only prevents some home-cooking scenario that many seem to suspect.

Rather than one flight, have two. And, yes... someone is STILL going to be left out, but honestly... its the Junior Grand Prix, not the Olympic Games. My proposal is more fair to more skaters, and that's the best that can be hoped for.

that's pretty much what i posted as well earlier in the thread...so great minds

 

[TontoK]

that's pretty much what i posted as well earlier in the thread...so great minds

They do indeed.

But my twist includes limiting the in-on-score group to GP medalists only. If there are six events, with three different medalists at each... that brings the GP Superfinal pool to 18. Gold medalists are in, so that leaves 12 skaters fighting for 6 spots on score.

But what about the fourth place finisher that had a higher score? Better luck next year. The GP Superfinal is limited to medalists only.

 

[4everchan]

They do indeed.

But my twist includes limiting the in-on-score group to GP medalists only. If there are six events, with three different medalists at each... that brings the GP Superfinal pool to 18. Gold medalists are in, so that leaves 12 skaters fighting for 6 spots on score.

But what about the fourth place finisher that had a higher score? Better luck next year. The GP Superfinal is limited to medalists only.

i see but that is not fair to skaters where there are indeed 4 russians in an event... I can easily see an event where the 4th skater delivers a much higher content and earns a better score than the entire podium at another event..

so maybe we were not quite on the same page actually... i read your post too fast, with too much enthusiasm hehe

 

[Amei]

i see but that is not fair to skaters where there are indeed 4 russians in an event... I can easily see an event where the 4th skater delivers a much higher content and earns a better score than the entire podium at another event..

so maybe we were not quite on the same page actually... i read your post too fast, with too much enthusiasm hehe

There's generally always a skater that somebody can say 'got screwed', I think the goal needs to be to try and make it as fair and as transparent as possible.

 

[TontoK]

i see but that is not fair to skaters where there are indeed 4 russians in an event... I can easily see an event where the 4th skater delivers a much higher content and earns a better score than the entire podium at another event..

so maybe we were not quite on the same page actually... i read your post too fast, with too much enthusiasm hehe

I acknowledge that the 4th place scenario is possible... but as I stated in my original proposal, someone is still going to be left out, but my goal was to be as fair to as many as possible.

There is no scheme that someone is not going to believe is unfair, especially because a third of the events have already taken place, and no selection criteria has been decided.

Edit: The fourth Russian pairs team and the fourth American man might also complain that they are a potential Top 10 at Worlds, and yet weren't selected to attend.

 

[4everchan]

There's generally always a skater that somebody can say 'got screwed', I think the goal needs to be to try and make it as fair and as transparent as possible.

for sure...that's why i really think that the ISU needs to make it two flights instead of one per discipline this year... yes, some will miss out, but i mean, if someone ranks 13th this year, they probably may not feel as wronged as someone who may end up 7th in the ranking and having perhaps even won a gold medal in an early JGP.

 

[NaVi]

I would expand the JGPF field to 7(except for maybe pairs), invite all the gold medal winners including from the first two events, and use the top score as the backup decider.

 

[yume]

One reason that I wanted the field extended to 8 was of course that I want to watch more skating! The JGPF used to have 8 skaters per event not so long ago. 8 skaters does not require any more ice remakes and is not a huge burden for the judges.

Did ISU communicate on the reason that made them decrease the number of competitors?

Well... if Japanese skaters cannot travel and miss the JGP season, do we really expect JGPF in Japan, without any of their skaters? So, another kind of adjustment will have to be made.

I don't see JSF cancelling JGPF because there won't be any of its skaters, nor asking a special treatment to ISU (the fed doesn't deserve it anyway imo, that's their own decision). Given its history with its skaters, especially on junior circuit, JSF is totally fine with hosting an event without any of their skaters imo.

 

[dorispulaski]

The first season with 6 rather than 8 qualifiers was 2011-12, AFAIR.

I do not recall whether the ISU offered any explanation other than financial concerns.

2011–12 ISU Junior Grand Prix - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[yume]

The first season with 6 rather than 8 qualifiers was 2011-12, AFAIR.

I do not recall whether the ISU offered any explanation other than financial concerns.

2011–12 ISU Junior Grand Prix - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

If money is the issue, i don't have high hopes about extending the fields.

 

[lariko]

If you extend the field for juniors to 2 flights per discipline (no matter the number), the senior division might need that as well, because, in all likelihood, the travel and participation will also be impacted. That, in turn, will impact the length of the Final.

 

[Climb]

Climb thanks for the information although the participants not knowing the rules in advance for qualifying to the final does still apply to a point - but at least, as you noted above, they knew of a possibility of an alternate method of calculation. But it's a minor point to my earlier post and doesn't really change anything IMHO. My hope is still a hybrid method to try to take into consideration the different groups of skaters as I mentioned earlier and that they'll expand the number of skaters/teams. For women, men, and dance, I hope they'll expand it from 6 to 8 or 9 skaters/teams. Pairs, of course, were not in the first two events.

You are correct. It doesn't really change anything. My intention was purely to clarify that part cause it could mislead people.
You like many others in this thread advocate for discrimination. The injustice was done once in France and now you want to do this again.
There is nothing to talk about.

 

[TontoK]

Another solution, and I honestly don't think it's that farfetched:

Just cancel the GP Finals.

The seniors will still have Continental championships, the Olympics, and Worlds. That's a big slate of major events.

As for the juniors? It's really not that big a deal in the long run.

 

[TontoK]

You are correct. It doesn't really change anything. My intention was purely to clarify that part cause it could mislead people.
You like many others in this thread advocate for discrimination. The injustice was done once in France and now you want to do this again.
There is nothing to talk about.

Pull back.

No one is advocating for discrimination. What you term as "injustice" is really just people doing the best they can in the face of unfortunate circumstances.

No one says you have to like it. I understand - I'm not a fan of COVID myself. But it's completely unfair to blame the ISU or event organizers for something completely out of their control. As for who to blame... you can blame the French government, but I seriously doubt they made their decision based on whether Russian juniors could attend a skating competition.