I feel sorry for Caroline Zhang

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

As of December 2012, Denise is still skating in shows and still trains hard. She is 50 years old!!!!!!

Wow, this is her from last February... still in amazing shape (hah, I can't imagine I'll be in as good shape for that many costume changes... or unchanges ) and her spins are still great -- that one-foot Beillman would rival any out there today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUSsPEjyt2Y

 

[silverlake22]

I agree. The body types that seem to benefit greatly in skating are skaters who came out of puberty looking like Kwan, Ando and the other taller, lean body type like Yu na, Kostner, Mao, Gao.

Agree. I've questioned Caroline and Mirai's fitness levels in the past, but they both look fit and in-shape now, they just simply aren't willowy or wiry in their build anymore, but rather curvier, with more solid looking muscle. The reality is that it's hard to do triple jumps as a women, so given that Mirai and Caroline are built more like "normal women" now, it's not surprising rotating the triples is an issue for them. In 2010, Mirai was similar in build to Yuna and Miki, but her body type has changed since then, and that's just genetics and growing up, her diet and training habits most likely have little to do with it. I know at least around the time of Vancouver, Mao, Miki, Yuna, and Mirai were all around 5'4" and 110 lbs (Mao and Yuna maybe weighed a little less). That's probably a pretty ideal size for a female figure skater, but Mirai and Caroline are not that size anymore. Of course, by no means does this make them out of shape or heavy, but figure skaters, much like distance runners, usually tend to perform their best when they are on the edge of being at an underweight vs. healthy BMI, and for some people, maintaining this type of body is easy and does not even require exercise or a strict diet, while for others, a strict diet and exercise will only get one to the middle of a healthy weight range. Kind of just reality even though it's irritating. Yuna's mom is very petite and her dad is tall and thin, so her body type is no surprise. Mai has a similar willowy build to Mao even though she isn't competing anymore so again, not surprising. Caroline's mother is not a thin lady, and idk what Mirai's parents look like but a lot of this stuff just comes down to genetics and certain body types are more suited to a given sport than others.

 

[PolymerBob]

Mirai and Caroline cannot be thin and willowy, so their only option is to try to get stronger.

 

[silverlake22]

Mirai and Caroline cannot be thin and willowy, so their only option is to try to get stronger.

But will getting stronger help them consistently rotate their jumps? This is more the question. I feel like Gracie Gold is such an exceptional jumper because she has very narrow hips but is otherwise strong and muscular. She's strong through the shoulders and chest but then has no hips, so her center of gravity is higher than most women and she can jump really high like guys do. Her build for a woman is not particularly common, but obviously is a huge advantage in this sport.

 

[Olympia]

Well, then there is the fact that two women who were rather stocky and muscular, Midori Ito and Tonya Harding, were two of the greatest jumpers ever. Oh, and Slutskaya.

I know that generally biology is destiny in many sports, but I always wonder who will beat the odds.

 

[silverlake22]

Well, then there is the fact that two women who were rather stocky and muscular, Midori Ito and Tonya Harding, were two of the greatest jumpers ever. Oh, and Slutskaya.

I know that generally biology is destiny in many sports, but I always wonder who will beat the odds.

They may have been stocky, but none of them had wide hips.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Ohhh GOD, logic in this thread. :disapp:

No, she absolutely would not have IMO.

1. Hughes had almost all 5.8, 5.8. That left room for only 2 skaters and Sasha, Michelle, and Irina were all left to skate. We all know which 2 those were. If you give Sasha 5.8, 5.9 or 5.9, 5.8 what on earth do you do if Kwan and Slutskaya both skate cleanly as well.

If a skater scores 5.8/5.8 there is room for ELEVEN more skaters ahead of them. 5.6/6.0, 5.7/6.0, 5.8/6.0, 5.9/6.0, 6.0/6.0, 6.0/5.9, 6.0/5.8, 6.0/5.7, 5.9/5.9, 5.9/5.8, and 5.8/5.9 are all higher scores.

Sasha absolutely would have placed ahead of Hughes if she had skated cleanly with the 3Lutz+3Toe. Judges clearly liked her more; she fell and two of the judges still gave her the same presentation score as Hughes and one even scored Sasha higher!

----

BTW, I loooove the Italian judge's scoring of the LP at this event. He marked them as 1. Hughes, 2. Kwan, 3. Cohen, 4. Slutskaya. Perfect.

That should have been the overall result of the competition as well because Kwan shouldn't have won the SP at the event...Cohen should have. Kwan's 3Flip did her in at this competition. She could have made the mistake on one of them, but not in both programs like that. Except I'm GLAD she did. I can't live without her 2003 Worlds performance, which wouldn't have happened without the 2002 Olympics "failure".

 

[TonyaHardlyEver]

Why are we talking about the 2002 Olympics on a thread about Caroline? I do that too, though. Anyway, I think Caroline needs a new coach. Karen Kwan is way too passive to coach a skater like Zhang. Caroline is tougher than she appears in the public. She needs to go to Sato and Jason or Rafael to revamp her jump technique. I agree that she would have done well in the post 94 Zenith with all the professional competitions where she could showcase her amazing Pearl spin. That's her gift to figure skating and it needs to be appreciated.

 

[Blades of Passion]

If a skater scores 5.8/5.8 there is room for ELEVEN more skaters ahead of them. 5.6/6.0, 5.7/6.0, 5.8/6.0, 5.9/6.0, 6.0/6.0, 6.0/5.9, 6.0/5.8, 6.0/5.7, 5.9/5.9, 5.9/5.8, and 5.8/5.9 are all higher scores.

Oops, I even forgot an important one - 5.7/5.9. So, that's 12 ways, a DOZEN ways, to place a skater ahead of someone who got 5.8/5.8.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Why are we talking about the 2002 Olympics on a thread about Caroline? I do that too, though. Anyway, I think Caroline needs a new coach. Karen Kwan is way too passive to coach a skater like Zhang. Caroline is tougher than she appears in the public. She needs to go to Sato and Jason or Rafael to revamp her jump technique. I agree that she would have done well in the post 94 Zenith with all the professional competitions where she could showcase her amazing Pearl spin. That's her gift to figure skating and it needs to be appreciated.

I think it will be tough for any coach to get her to where she wants to be. We have seen skaters in the past turn things around later in their careers (Kostner, Butyrskaya, etc) but those skaters had solid fundamentals and Caroline has too many things she needs to improve upon to be competitive with the top ladies. She is slow, she has a severe problem underrotating jumps, and her choreography is (arguably) boring. Even if she is able to improve her speed and stroking she will have to relearn how to land jumps when skating faster, which has been a struggle for Mao (and Mao already had great fundamentals). When Caroline did well as a junior and first year senior, she had that "wow" factor of being young and armed with 3/3s; since then she has lost that and hasn't improved on her deficiencies (other than improved technique of the flip and flutz). Obviously it would be great if she could achieve her goals but, realistically, I don't see it happening.

 

[FlattFan]

Ohhh GOD, logic in this thread. :disapp:



If a skater scores 5.8/5.8 there is room for ELEVEN more skaters ahead of them. 5.6/6.0, 5.7/6.0, 5.8/6.0, 5.9/6.0, 6.0/6.0, 6.0/5.9, 6.0/5.8, 6.0/5.7, 5.9/5.9, 5.9/5.8, and 5.8/5.9 are all higher scores.

Oh god, and now this? Of course these are the possibilities, but how likely?

5.9/6.0? I don't see any in SLC with the skate of their life that can get this kind of sjucore.
5.9/5.9? Really?
6.0/6.0? Really?
6.0/5.9? Really?
6.0/5.8? Really?

So basically, there are a bunch of combinations that can place someone ahead of Hughes, but the probability is nil/nit/zero/nada. Even if Katarina jumps like Midori, I doubt she would get these kind of scores. So no, there is no room. Door closed.

 

[pangtongfan]

Exactly. What the judges had in mind is pretty obvious. If Michelle skated cleanly she would get 5.8, 5.9 irregardless of if she did the triple toe-triple toe or triple-double or not, maybe 5.7, 5.9 from some judges if she didnt do the triple-triple which would still place her above Hughes. Then if Slutskaya skated cleanly she would either get 5.9, 5.8 or 5.9, 5.9 depending if the judges felt her performance deserved to be placed 1st or 2nd behind Kwan. The only realistic possabilities of scores from most judges are the ones not involving a 6.0 so- 5.8, 5.9, 5.9, 5.8 and 5.9, 5.9, that is it. The judges were not going to want to pre judge Irina's final placing before she even skated, and 5.9, 5.8 makes no sense for Sasha who is a stronger presentation than technical (although the presentation of her LPs in 2002 still needed ALOT of work) so that leaves only 2 combination of marks, and those were for the 2 obvious ones, not Sasha. With marks of 5.8, 5.8 for Hughes already the judges were not going to go higher than that for Cohen with the 2 favorites still to presumably fit above that. Maybe 2 or 3 would have at most, but that is it. As I already noted her marks were very low for only 1 mistake as it was, mostly 5.6s technical and 5.7s in presentation, for her only mistake being a fall at the back end of a triple-triple attempt very low marks, and most judges had her .2 or .3 behind Hughes in the scores (a couple even more) and skaters dont typically lose that for only 1 fall back in the 6.0 days. Contrast that to Kwan who didnt attempt a triple-triple, fell on a very important triple (triple flip), and two footed another triple, and still took 3 judges ahead of Hughes, and 8 of 9 ahead of Cohen, and had higher presentation marks than Hughes (and much higher than Cohen).

On another note had the Olympics been anywhere else Cohen would have finished behind Suguri as she had all season long, and especialy when Suguri's LP in SLC was clearly better from nearly every perspective. The only reason Sasha was even a real contender was the Olympics being in the U.S. Her skating had a long ways to go still at that point, although her short program in SLC was pretty good I admit.

 

[Blades of Passion]

5.6/6.0 and 6.0/6.0 are unrealistic scores to consider (although the former shouldn't be), I'll give you that, but the rest are perfectly viable. Slutskaya certainly could have been scored as 6.0/5.9 or 6.0/5.8 if she nailed her planned content and Kwan obviously could have received 6.0 on the second mark if she skated perfectly. So, there were 10 realistic scores the judges could have been expected to give to Slutskaya or Kwan that would have put them over Hughes. 5.7/5.9 for Kwan would have been an acceptable score even if she didn't skate perfect and that would have put her ahead of Hughes. Even with the fall a couple judges placed her ahead of Hughes.

On another note had the Olympics been anywhere else Cohen would have finished behind Suguri as she had all season long, and especialy when Suguri's LP in SLC was clearly better from nearly every perspective. The only reason Sasha was even a real contender was the Olympics being in the U.S.

Entirely wrong. Cohen was easily seen as the more talented skater, a one-of-kind skater. And Cohen did more Triples than Suguri in SLC, so how was the latter "better from nearly every perspective", when Cohen was already seen as superior with regards to Spirals/Spins/Ice Presence? That makes no sense at all.

BTW, at the 2002 Worlds in Japan, Cohen fell twice in her Long Program and pretty obviously two-footed a jump, but still received nearly the same presentation scores as Suguri.

 

[mskater93]

Mirai and Caroline cannot be thin and willowy, so their only option is to try to get stronger.

That's not necessarily the right answer. If you go read Dorothy Hamil's book, you will see that sometimes there's too much "get stronger" (she talked about what was considered good off ice in the mid-70s and how she put on too much muscle in some areas to jump effectively). There's an optimum place for each skater and it's different for each skater.

 

[Ziggy]

Agree. I've questioned Caroline and Mirai's fitness levels in the past, but they both look fit and in-shape now, they just simply aren't willowy or wiry in their build anymore, but rather curvier, with more solid looking muscle.

I don't think that Nagasu looks like she has dense and toned muscles at the moment.

Zhang looks to be in good shape. She has thunder thighs but they way they look, I think it's dense muscle and not fat.

BTW, I loooove the Italian judge's scoring of the LP at this event. He marked them as 1. Hughes, 2. Kwan, 3. Cohen, 4. Slutskaya. Perfect.

No, it's not perfect. Hughes' combinations were cheated, she had a terrible flutz and weaker basics than many of the skaters in that event. It's ridiculous to place her first under any judging system. And Kwan second? After that flawed, uninspired skate?

 

[Dragonlady]

No, it's not perfect. Hughes' combinations were cheated, she had a terrible flutz and weaker basics than many of the skaters in that event. It's ridiculous to place her first under any judging system. And Kwan second? After that flawed, uninspired skate?

Hughes combinations were not cheated in SLC. The first was fully rotated, and the second was within the 1/4 rotation short to qualify as fully rotated under CoP, and as for her basics, Sarah has some of the strongest basics skating of the ladies. Her posture was an issue as was the flutz, but not her basic skating skills which were very strong.

 

[pangtongfan]

No, it's not perfect. Hughes' combinations were cheated, she had a terrible flutz and weaker basics than many of the skaters in that event. It's ridiculous to place her first under any judging system. And Kwan second? After that flawed, uninspired skate?

Exactly. Those were ridiculous rankings, hence why that judge was reprimanded and threatened with a suspension after the event.

 

[Blades of Passion]

No, it's not perfect. Hughes' combinations were cheated, she had a terrible flutz and weaker basics than many of the skaters in that event. It's ridiculous to place her first under any judging system. And Kwan second? After that flawed, uninspired skate?

The only jump in Hughes' program that would perhaps deserve the < call is her 3Sal. Both of the 3Loops in combination were there. Her basics were good. Her positions were excellent. Her performance was lovely.

I didn't find Kwan's performance to be uninspired. It was flawed and bit nervous, yes, but she still displayed excellent quality. Her basics and overall choreography were better than Cohen's and EVERYTHING she did in terms of the "second mark" was better Slutskaya's robotic crap.

that judge was reprimanded and threatened with a suspension after the event.

No they weren't? What are you talking about. LOL?

I see you're still holding on to Slutskaya's gross SLC performance, though.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Hughes combinations were not cheated in SLC. The first was fully rotated, and the second was within the 1/4 rotation short to qualify as fully rotated under CoP, and as for her basics, Sarah has some of the strongest basics skating of the ladies. Her posture was an issue as was the flutz, but not her basic skating skills which were very strong.

Please watch this video starting at 5:05 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2KYnyBI3JU

3S/3L - 3S is between 0.25 and 0.5 short. 3L is a full 0.5 short.
3Z - Between 0.25 and 0.5 short, probably closer to 0.25
3T/3L - 3T is about 0.25 short, 3L a full 0.5
3T - Would be fully credited, <0.25 short

The US telecast did not show her jumps in slow motion and she did a very good job of hiding the under-rotations. I think she should have won based on how skating was judged under 6.0 but I can't argue with the fact that almost all of her triples were < or <<. If you watch the video and disagree then you probably aren't being objective.

 

[pangtongfan]

Note to Blades of Passion, I have had you on my ignore list for half a year now so in the event you seemingly keep typing directly behind me means you are responding to my posts, I do not see your posts (unless by the unfortunate chance someone quotes you), I have no interest in your posts, and you are best to stop replying to mine as you are merely wasting typing space.