Ice Dance - Free Dance | Page 9 | Golden Skate

Ice Dance - Free Dance

:) Not having seen them in person, I'm not sure how much the Shibs lack power..they certainly seem to gain speed quickly ...but even if they have room to grow in the power dept, they have one great advantage over many older couples... finesse. And Alex seems to be a wonderful partner as well as a fine skater.The two are not always synonymous.

I can see no weakness in them. Yes, they may be able to improve in one area or another ( going from good to better )...but what I said earlier for P/I holds true for the Shibs, there's nothing you can point out that would an be impediment to their progress ( especially since she has grown ).

And I agree Z/S have generally been so good at coming up with programs tailored for their various teams, I don't forsee any major stumbling block.
 
Colleen, I have to agree with you. And I have to iterate that the Shibs have and have always had a major strength over many teams: really great timing, which is the thing that seals the deal for me with dancers.
 
At one time or another,I've called most of the current crop of skaters we've been talking about "kids" , because compared to me, they are. ;) Meryl and Charlie will both hit the big 24 this year :rolleye:..Tessa & Scott will be 22 & 24..Those are kids to me... Maia Shibutani and Elena Ilinykh are really kids at 16-17. This year C/P will be 21&20 ..P/I , 20&21. When I say "kids", it's strictly a reference to their relative youth as people.Sure, sometimes it's to say, look how good they are at such a young age ,or sometimes to say , they're still inexperienced, they'll learn..just an observation.

But it annoys me when people use the term as a defense of ,or an excuse for a skater (as is often done for C/P ) amounting to.. it's cruel to point out any faults, or level any critique ( even of their coaches !) because they're just kids. I believe Vanessa and Kaitlyn are the same age or within a year of each other . How is one a kid, and the other not ? Or, for that matter, how is a 21 yr. old a mature woman and her 20 yr. old partner a kid ? This has been going on for 3yrs. at least. These skaters have now been to many elite level competitions. When does it stop ? When does it become a crutch ?

NorthernDancers points out how everyone has been very protective of Paul ( moreso in the past) but is that the best attitude, to help someone learn to swim in the deep end ? Maybe there's some unusual reason..( for example, I had a dancer friend whose vision was severely impaired in one eye. After she learned ways to compensate, you couldn't tell, but she went into turns to her left practically blind.Another was hearing impaired and the teacher used to pound out the rhythm on the studio floor. Once learned, she used her internal metronome on stage)...if, in this case , it's just a slow transition to maturity, it's time to step up the pace, and not be so defensive.

The circumstances surrounding W/P's skate were unusual and had to be ( at least) disruptive to their preparation , but it's something competitors have to learn to cope with. (I believe they can. They've tackled other challenges with a will ).

I hope the best for all of them at World's and I do agree that a 5/6 or 6/7 finish is doable even without V/M , but I very much hope it won't be without.
 
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Glad to see you post, colleen. I was getting concerned!!

ETA: I know I'm gonna love the full FD when we see it. I was already dancing to it today.
 
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As to the premise that the Shibs have less "power" than Crone/Poirier, at least at this event, it would be a hard premise to defend:

PCS
Shibs: 44.58

Skating Skills 7.50
Linking Footwork/Trans 7.21
Perf 7.43
Choreo 7.54
Interpretation/Timing 7.61

C/P: 42.90

Skating Skills 7.32
Linking Footwork/Trans 6.89
Perf 7.29
Choreo 7.11
Interp/Timing 7.29

The Shibs beat C/P on every component of PCS, including Skating Skills & Transitions.

The Shibs have lovely, silent, effortless stroking. You need to see them live to completely appreciate this. They are not yet as powerful as V&M or D&W, but they are definitely in a class with C/P. They have improved massively even from the GP series.
 
......[ The Shibs beat C/P on every component of PCS, including Skating Skills & Transitions.

. They are not yet as powerful as V&M or D&W, but they are definitely in a class with C/P. "...



Ya might appear so for this competition ... but it was an American Technical Controller.... :think:
 
fan1961 said:
......[ The Shibs beat C/P on every component of PCS, including Skating Skills & Transitions.

. They are not yet as powerful as V&M or D&W, but they are definitely in a class with C/P. "...



Ya might appear so for this competition ... but it was an American Technical Controller.... :think:
Click to expand...

Well, given that the PCS scores are given by the judges, rather than by the Technical Controller, that would be pretty irrelevant, but for the sake of full disclosure:

Judges:

Referee Mr. Alexandr GORSHKOV ISU

Technical Controller Mr. Robert J. HOREN ISU

Technical Specialist Mr. Rock LEMAY ISU

Assistant Technical Specialist Mr. Michael WEBSTER ISU


Judge No.1 Mr. Mark STORTON ISU

Judge No.2 Ms. Sandra WILLIAMSON-LEADLEY ISU

Judge No.3 Mr. You-Hwa LEE ISU

Judge No.4 Ms. Jodi ABBOTT ISU

Judge No.5 Mr. Shawn RETTSTATT ISU

Judge No.6 Mr. Evgeni ROKHIN ISU

Judge No.7 Ms. Kaoru TAKINO ISU

Judge No.8 Ms. Maira ABASOVA ISU

Judge No.9 Ms. Tianyi ZHANG ISU

Technical Committee:

http://www.sirc.ca/news_view.cfm?id=11419&search=&show=&month=7&year=2006&search_where=

Rock Lemay, technical specialist, is Canadian
http://www.isuresults.com/seminars/FRA2010_Participants_all.pdf
Robert Horen, technical controller, is American
And Michael Webster is German
The referee, Alexander Gorshkov is Russian.

It seems like a tech panel that was well balanced for Canadians & Americans.
 
The Shibutanis would have received lower PCS scores too if they had been in the penultimate group for the FD, no doubt in my mind.
 
Of course, there is a question if those PCS are actually fair, given the way PCS tend to increase as the groups do, regardless of actual prowess. After all, W/P outscored C/P on every component as well.

The Shibs lost to C/P on four of the five PCS in the short dance, for example, so the premise wouldn't be that hard to defend.
 
colleen o'neill said:
But it annoys me when people use the term as a defense of ,or an excuse for a skater (as is often done for C/P ) amounting to.. it's cruel to point out any faults, or level any critique ( even of their coaches !) because they're just kids. I believe Vanessa and Kaitlyn are the same age or within a year of each other . How is one a kid, and the other not ? Or, for that matter, how is a 21 yr. old a mature woman and her 20 yr. old partner a kid ? This has been going on for 3yrs. at least. These skaters have now been to many elite level competitions. When does it stop ? When does it become a crutch ?
Click to expand...

Well stated. These are professional athletes. They do this for a living as well as for the love of the sport. It's part of their responsibility to filter, absorb and use criticism in order to improve.
 
jcoates said:
Well stated. These are professional athletes. They do this for a living as well as for the love of the sport. It's part of their responsibility to filter, absorb and use criticism in order to improve.
Click to expand...

yes as long as the criticism is constructive and actionable... to say that an athlete is a wicked witch or a prince is neither.
 
The Shibutanis last year looked like were in danger somewhat, dropping to 4th at JUNIOR Worlds. However they are having an amazing resurgence this season.
 
:biggrin: Pogue..I have to sleep sometime. Boy that was a rough night ! But what the heck ! I'm just glad I found a link that worked ( Bless you ScroogeMcDuck ).I was thrilled to sit here bleary-eyed, giving myself bursitis by leaning on my elbows on my computer desk.;) Now, that's what I call entertainment !

Thankfully, Bold is doing World's and I can at least be more comfortable in front of the TV, then.

Problems or no, that first bit of V/M's choreography looks pretty dazzling..Hope they're strong enough to deliver it at World's.
 
colleen o'neill said:
:)
C/P didn't skate particularly well , but well enough. They,too, had a couple of bobbles.. (bumping together, having to reach..that kind of thing ).They were obviously not happy with their marks, but who knows whether that was just due to knowing mistakes they'd made , or if they thought they were undermarked. Anyway, they can't have been pleased to be passed by the Shibs.
Click to expand...

I did not notice any kind of discontent when they received the marks. FWIW, I think they skated well, I did not notice the bobbles you mention. And Shibs had not yet skated so V/P can't possibly have been thinking about being passed by them.

colleen o'neill said:
..... Maia Shibutani and Elena Ilinykh are really kids at 16-17. This year C/P will be 21&20 ..P/I , 20&21.

But it annoys me when people use the term as a defense of ,or an excuse for a skater (as is often done for C/P ) amounting to.. it's cruel to point out any faults, or level any critique ( even of their coaches !) because they're just kids. I believe Vanessa and Kaitlyn are the same age or within a year of each other . How is one a kid, and the other not ? Or, for that matter, how is a 21 yr. old a mature woman and her 20 yr. old partner a kid ? This has been going on for 3yrs. at least. These skaters have now been to many elite level competitions. When does it stop ? When does it become a crutch ?
Click to expand...

Since you nitpick, I will as well. Vanessa and Paul are only recently 20 /19 , Kaitlyn will be 22 in another month, and Andrew is 24 next week. It would seem the difference is closer to two years for Vanessa and Kaitlyn and more than three years when you consider the difference between the two teams.

As far as the "this has been going on for at least 3 years" that would have put V/P at 17/16. You said earlier in your quote, that at 16/17 Maia and Ilena "are really kids" , but you seem to imply that has always been an invalid label for V/P and just given as an excuse or defense.

I knew as soon as I saw the results putting V/P ahead of W/P you would be out in full force. I can understand people having their preferences in style, etc., but there is something to be appreciated in all skaters.
 
tangos...I think you misunderstand me, whether intentionally or not, I don't know. I said I thought C/P looked displeased with their marks..well they certainly didn't look happy. I did not say they pouted or put on an unseemly display. Please don't read in what is not there( I'm just stressing that, not shouting )....I said I couldn't be sure because the camera work was not the best, but I thought I saw them bump together in one place , have to really reach for each other in one or two more , and camera work aside, generally they looked tense to me. I haven't seen a YouTube up, but we'll be able to see when CBC airs it tomorrow.

My remark about the Shibutani's does not relate to how C/P looked in the K&C ,I just remarked that it can't have pleased C/P in the end result.( Especially since many people thought they'd be a shoo-in for silver if V/M did not compete.Who knows? maybe they thought that themselves..maybe they weren't completely happy with the way they skated..maybe the ice was bad..Who Knows ?)
I'm sure they can't have been happy that the Shibs were scored higher in the SD,either , and that they didn't make the last group for the FD. Who would be happy about that ? I'd be unhappy, too, if I was them.

No, the "kids " thing has only begun to irk me in the last year or so. Vanessa and Paul were kids when they first came up to seniors , but they've been up for 3 yrs., now and had the benefit of loads of experience and attention. When will they no longer be kids ? I don't think W/P ( or anyone else I can think of) were called kids in that way after their first year together. Maybe not ever, in that excusing ,defensive way.
I only compared years of birth, not whether people were born at the beginning or end of the year. 6 or 8 or 10 months can make a big difference when children are just starting school, or when they hit puberty..but at 19?, 20? , 21? Not so much...

Now, do I think C/P deserve this bronze medal..yes. Do I think the Shibs deserve their silver medal ? yes. Do I think W/P might have had the bronze if they'd managed to hold it together ? yes. Do I think anyone should say, "Oh, but W/P are just kids, so no-one should say they need to hold it together at World's "? no.
Do I think that the Shibs could bypass C/P again at World's ? yes,and very possibly on into the future, if C/P don't work, work, work on their problem areas. And do I think it's possible C/P can do that ? YES. Will they ?..I don't know.. I'd love to see it.

ETA: I've never said I find nothing to appreciate in C/P's skating..I've frequently said I find much to admire. Their talent deserves to be developed to it's full potential. I just can't understand why there has not been more attention given to doing that. Making excuses,or covering up the problems won't really do it. Therefore it frustrates me.
 
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Attaining power when skating can be achieved but often, as in the case of C/P, it is at the expense of line and how close they are skating together. I still find them to be two single skaters out there and their opposite colour outfit exaggerates this look for me.
 
backoutsideedge said:
No offense, but I find this post laughable. C&P are far more powerful skaters than the Shibs at this point. The Shibs will get more power in their skating but at this point POWER is the one big thing they are lacking.
Click to expand...

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, however, having spent more than 20 years as a skating analyst - 10 years working for television - I don't think even Tracy Wilson with whom I worked, would call my opinion "laughable."
 
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