If a skater rejected a title?

[Skate2Music]

If a skater were to renounce a major ISU title that they unfairly won how would the skating community react?
What consequences would occur? Would their skating career be over?
I am in no way trying to harm the integrity of any skater, I just wanted to test possible consequences/reactions for a story that I am writing.
In fiction, you can write scenarios that are unrealistic and I apologize if I offended anyone.

 

[lappo]

Well, but unless skaters personally conspired with "the Force" to get a medal I'm not sure they can perceive their medals as unfair or that they can be accused of having no moral integrity: in fact, their contribution to the episode was to go on the ice and skate to the best of their abilities, it's not like they score themselves. So, I don't think that skaters should be seen as personally or morally responsible for for whatever tricks their federations (or other even bigger forces) are playing behind: if the latter are found to be corrupted in whatever possible way they should be corrupted from every ISU rink FOR LIFE.

 

[noskates]

I just don't now in what universe this would ever happen. Skaters train too hard and too long to develop moral integrity and agree that they were outskated.

 

[Warwick360]

If a skater were to have the moral integrity to renounce a major ISU title that they unfairly won how would the skating community react?
What consequences would occur? Would their skating career be over?

I can't think of such action to be anything other than a career suicide. I say this because, let's say a skater does reject a title expressing bias from the judges that have awarded him or her, I'd venture a guess that it is strongly likely that those judges will be very harsh on that skater the next time he/she competes in a competition.

 

[Pamigena]

That skater's career would be deader than disco, because if you tell the judges that you don't want their points, then guess what – they won't give them to you anymore, ever again.

 

[mrrice]

I just don't now in what universe this would ever happen. Skaters train too hard and too long to develop moral integrity and agree that they were outskated.

This is true. So many strange things have happened in skating and I think we've all seen skaters get "Robbed" by the judges at one time or another. We've also seen skaters get a personal best score that leaves them shocked and screaming with joy over the big numbers. The new system, especially with the tech caller, has made it much more difficult for judges to cheat....Sometimes a skater will not skate their best and think should have been "Held Up" I think Irina Slutskaya thought that she'd won in Salt Lake City and you could tell by her reaction that she was not satisfied when she saw her numbers that night.

 

[gmyers]

Sotnikova definitely had the best skate of her life so no matter what has been said and what continues to be written about her like in the NBC "where are they now article" that says judges cheated and accuses her of doping she knows she skated the best she ever did. So if skater skated best they would say thank you and always justify their win.

 

[gotoschool]

This is true. So many strange things have happened in skating and I think we've all seen skaters get "Robbed" by the judges at one time or another. We've also seen skaters get a personal best score that leaves them shocked and screaming with joy over the big numbers. The new system, especially with the tech caller, has made it much more difficult for judges to cheat....Sometimes a skater will not skate their best and think should have been "Held Up" I think Irina Slutskaya thought that she'd won in Salt Lake City and you could tell by her reaction that she was not satisfied when she saw her numbers that night.

I disagree. If there is an intent to do so, there are actually more places to spread out inflation and deflation for skaters in COP. A tech crew can overlook flutzes, lips or urs on one skater and ding other skaters for the same amount of rotation and the same type of edge which massively changes not only the base value but also the GOE. Excessive pre-rotation is still overlooked which goes against the concept of objectively measuring rotation from take off to landing, especially for those that have less pre-rotation. Furthermore, there is a multiplier effect because PCS scores are very often extrapolated from TES scores, without paying much attention to the criteria for measuring PCS. But, I think 6.0 definitely had scoring manipulation as well.

As far as the topic of the thread, I can't imagine why anyone would ever reject a title whether they received help to get it or not and I don't know how or if they would be aware of receiving "help," especially to the extent of feeling guilty enough to renounce the medal and especially if they had skated really well and knew that they would accrue great benefits from it. In terms of confessing if they did receive help which seems to be the implication of the thread, I remember hearing from an official of a government in a country that shall remain nameless who once said if I refuse payoffs I will be kicked out of my position. How much more trouble would that person be in if they publicized their refusal?

 

[el henry]

I agree with others who find the wording "have the moral integrity to refuse" a tad troubling.

Every skater who goes out on the ice believes in themselves, believes in their abilities, and believes on their best day they should win. Otherwise, why are they out there?

So if Skater Y wins the comp over Skater X, I don't care if a busload of bishops, Toller Cranston re-incarnated, and every fan on Goldenskate says Skater X wuzrobbed, Skater Y should accept should accept the medal with grace and happiness and pleasure. *That* shows moral integrity. I don't know what refusing it would show.

 

[LiamForeman]

Really, no skater is going to reject a title. They might know they were completely gifted and the most they'd do is admit it later when they are interviewed. One glaring example was in a 1991 GP (France?) where Kurt Browning with a total disaster of a skate won over Alexei Urmanov. Kurt was decent enough to flat out say he was gifted the title. Let me see if I can find it on YouTube. I can't believe it was 26 years ago!

ETA: Here's Kurt's program, but I didn't find Urmanov's or Zagorodniuk's. This does show Urmanov landing an easy 4toe. https://youtu.be/acIiSgnJCas

 

[Sackie]

But in most cases would a skater even know whether or not the deserved the win. I mean they can know they may not have had their best skate but would they know how the others skated. My understanding was that quite often skaters do not even pay attention to how the other skaters skate. They just go out and do their own thing.

 

[narcissa]

But in most cases would a skater even know whether or not the deserved the win. I mean they can know they may not have had their best skate but would they know how the others skated. My understanding was that quite often skaters do not even pay attention to how the other skaters skate. They just go out and do their own thing.

Yeah, plus they'd have to wait to see the protocols, what if there were URs, wrong edge, zayaked jumps? etc. And by that time the medal ceremony would probably have already occurred.

 

[Abraxis12345]

I'm not sure how that's logistically possible. I know Simona Amanar has insisted that Andrea Raducan was the rightful gold medal winner and the Romanian gymnastics team had a ceremony where everyone returned the medals to their original winners (Amanar gave the gold back to Raducan, Olaru gave the silver back to Amanar), but the records still show Amanar as the champ

 

[NanaPat]

My daughter was once on a synchronized swimming team that won a medal despite a bad swim. One of the girls said, "boy, the other teams must have been really bad." I would imagine that would be a common reaction to winning an unexpected medal, though international competitors are probably too well trained or tactful to say it out loud.

 

[lappo]

Did a bit of research, I leave this here: http://mentalfloss.com/article/31398/4-times-olympians-refused-their-medals

Apparently, apart from the last case, the few Olympic medalists who refused their medals did that because they felt robbed, not because they felt that they robbed someone else.

 

[LRK]

That skater's career would be deader than disco, because if you tell the judges that you don't want their points, then guess what – they won't give them to you anymore, ever again.

Exactly.

Skater X: I was overscored!
Judges: Oh, really? Don't worry - that won't happen again.

 

[Ares]

I don't think it has ever happened or will happen unless such skater would confess to be accessory in corruption.

Sure some thought ot even expressed being gifted on occasion but that does not equal rejecting.

Some can also confess to their use of doping years later and in that way "reject" their title but in Figure Skating doping is not rife afaik.

 

[ice coverage]

But in most cases would a skater even know whether or not the deserved the win. I mean they can know they may not have had their best skate but would they know how the others skated. My understanding was that quite often skaters do not even pay attention to how the other skaters skate. They just go out and do their own thing.

:agree: Agree.

And I would add this thought:

I recall that a top ice dance couple once happened to mention (I do not remember how the topic came up) that they did not always have a reliable sense of how their practice run-throughs at home would be perceived by their coach (who is one of the top coaches in the discipline).

I do not remember exact quotes, but the general idea was:

Sometimes the ice dancers would finish a run-through and feel, "Ugh, our skating today was substandard ." And they would be surprised when their coach instead would say, "That was one of your best :luv17:."

On the other hand, sometimes the dancers would finish a run-through and feel, "Great, we nailed it ." And they would be surprised when their coach instead would say, "What happened? You need to work on this thing and that thing and the other thing and ..."​

 

[Violet Bliss]

If a skater were to have the moral integrity to renounce a major ISU title that they unfairly won how would the skating community react?
What consequences would occur? Would their skating career be over?

I take it you have in mind some skater(s) who had "unfairly won" a major ISU title but lacked the "moral integrity" to renounce it. There have been debates among fans about whether a title has been merited but no titles have been officially challenged. Unfairness is a matter of opinion some hold against the official judging and results rather than a fact as stated by some fans.

You also quite explicitly express that not renouncing a title "unfairly won" means a lack of "moral integrity" on the part of the winner. Since the unfairness is an opinion, why would the winner be expected to have the exact same opinion as you and some fans? And be expected to renounce the title if s/he indeed holds the opinion that s/he does not deserve it? There are times when some skaters are overjoyed upon winning a medal and fans are thoroughly entertained and impressed by their reaction of thrill and disbelief. Nobody has ever opined that these skaters should renounce the medal since they didn't quite believe they could have won.

As lappo found out, they were Olympic medalists who thought they deserved even higher placements. In figure skating, Surya Bonaly was hard pressed to accept her 1994 Worlds Silver Medal.

A skater trains hard and intends to do their best at the time of competition. They may be extremely pleased or disappointed at their performance. They accept the official results and study the judging details so they may appeal more to the judges in the future. They don't do the judging of the performances and of the judges. In fact, as Sackie pointed out and we already know that skaters focus on their own performances instead of paying attention to other skaters. Patrick said recently that only at this last Worlds did he get to watch for the first time the other top Men's perform as he sat in the green room.

The skaters and the judges have different jobs to do. The skaters are usually not in a position to know how they have skated relative to other competitors even if sometimes they can hear fans reactions to earlier performances. They really can't judge the placements. Their coaches, however, can submit an official complaint or protest if they feel the judging has been obviously unfair.

It's enough that fans argue about the judging of the performances, let's not start judging the skaters' integrity based on any personal opinion of the judging.

 

[Seren]

The suggestion that a skater should refuse a title because skating fans think another skater "wazrobbed!" is silly. First of all, skaters don't usually watch the other skaters so how are they even supposed to have an opinion. Secondly, it is not the skaters job to deal with poor judging. If a judging panel has issues- it should be the ISU or federations that investigate it.

One example that comes to mind is NHK 2012 where Mao (who I adore) was gifted a too generous FS score after a really poor FS and won over a much stronger Akiko (who I also adore) who skated beautifully. It was clearly really uncomfortable for Mao (even the Brittish Eurosport guys commented on it), she knew she hadn't done well- but it wasn't her job to call out the judges. She did not score herself.

Judging is really complicated- there are going to be times when decisions could have gone either way. In the situations that deserve a second look, expecting skaters to do something that could seriously hurt them in the future is not cool.

It's really easy to have moral high ground behind a computer screen.