If Adelina Sotnikova returns

[plushyfan]

The bottom line is that Sochi judging of the women's event was outrageous and those who defend it are equally outrageous. Whether it was fraudulent judging or the panel just getting carried away, it's outrageous. So maybe she did deserve to win. Fine. But she's significantly better than three of the greatest ever in the sport? No. Unfortunately for her, she won't be taken seriously again. Poor thing, really, but good luck to her.

I don't thik that Sarah Hughes was the best skater in 2002, when he won the SLC gold.

 

[OS]

...
Edited to add: Actually, U.S. President Theodore Roosevelt was a big sportsman and outdoorsman who skated recreationally.
...
Reagan was a Peggy Flemming fan.

Heh... you know that I like you and respect you Mathsman, but I am amused that you failed to see the irony of the TR quote would have been more appropriate to address it to the partisan audience and slanted judging panel at Sochi as a reminder of fairness and equal respect should apply to ALL sportsmen, not just the one that been gifted the most coveted prize of all that many disagreed. Certainly impractical on a 'sports forum' where such matters have always been discussed and analysed at all times.

Given the former American Commander in chief had been such an avid sportsmen, I really doubt what happened at Sochi was what he had in mind when coming up with such a quote. Especially if he had seen what happened with American Ashley Wagner's score, that nobody really discussed due to the main outrage that took so much of the attentions away.

Also if Reagan had really been such a Peggy Flemming fan, I can't believe he'd find the SP score make much sense either, seeing Send in the clown(for me at least) recall the type of classical ladies style from Flemming more than anyone else.

“Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things.” -- Winston Churchill

The quote is from a Yuna fan. Some of them still think one should win on artistry alone and that more jumps and better spins should count for nothing.

1st point. You are not well informed. Please read back.
2nd point. ...and you fail to see figure skating is more than just 1 more jump rotation and better spins.

Actually Artistry/PCS can win competitions.

It is the story of Carolina Kostner's career (who received the highest PCS in SP @ Sochi) and sometimes of Mao Asada's career such as NHK over Akiko. However, It has NEVER been the story of Yuna Kim's career, not once, right till the end. Surely even as one of her biggest naysayers you can see that she is certainly no slouch in this area.

I keep hearing similar explanation of Sotnikova winning on harder tech (or 1 jump rotation), but they fail to see difficulty of the programs can not be measured on accounted by Base Value alone, which are certainly open to manipulation by those who is in charge of it; who marks it; as well as who 'decide' on changing the rules whenever. Is it any 'luck' that the combination of rules and scale value scores changes made after Vancouver that has been 'decided' by the technical committee headed by Lakernik - Vice President of Russia Skating federation, who ALSO happened to be the technical controller in Sochi that downgraded Kim's BV the most out of all ladies, as well as upgraded all Sot's levels including ignore all her flaws?

Kim's Base value was highest at Vancouver: 60.9. Afterall she has some of the most difficult combination jumps outside the 3A: 2x 3lz3t, 2A3t, 3 ltz in her program. But after the post Vacouver COP number shredding that limit her ability to bring 2A3T since she don't do loop, as well as the mysterious downgrades on her levels by Lakernik, her LP BV at Sochi had to became 57.49.

Lets examine their base value vs 'intended' base value for SP + LP at Sochi.

SP BV: Kim (31.43), Sot (30.43), difference = 1 more to Kim
Had Kim fulfilled level 4 (+0.6), the difference would have been 1.6 more BV to Kim

LP BV: Kim (57.49), Sot (61.43), difference = 3.94 to Sot
Had Kim fulfilled level 4 on step sequences (+0.6) and spins (+0.3), the difference would have been
3.04 to Sot. Not able to do 2A3T is costly.

This makes the difference between their total 'intended' tech BV to just
3.04 – 1.6 = 1.44
Sotnikova ends up winning 5.48 over all despite the easiest combo in her SP, and has been effectively given the highest score in the history of this sport. Consider ISU had reduced GOEs by 30% since Vancouver. This would have won Vancouver. She did it with a soso grade B program that hardly anyone liked or discussed, 3t3t SP program, and a stumble.

(BTW I think these protocols sheets can be misleading. Perhaps they should add a new column right in the beginning to show what would have been the optimised BV score had they able to achieve everything as planned to make it easier to compare?)

PCS is not that subjective. It may be if it is VERY close but on which God's earth has Sotnikova even been close within a 10 points radius to any of Kim/Kostner/Asada in this department? Apparently, just Putin's and only in Russia.

 

[Tutto]

^ :thumbsup:
What you say and with which I agree 100% shows very clearly that it is pretty much within power of a technical panel alone to determine the results. The tech panel for both the sp & lp was: Alexander Lakernik, Olga Baranova & Vanessa Gusmeroli.
(Though she represens Finland, the name Olga Baranova is Russian so its suggestive)

I don't thik that Sarah Hughes was the best skater in 2002, when he won the SLC gold.

That's precisely the point, Sarah was not the best skater but the best skaters of the time made mistakes on the night allowing Sarah to win. Yuna & Carolina did not.

 

[Ophelia]

In all honesty, I have nothing against Adelina, but I do wonder how realistic it is to expect Adelina to make a come back. It will be years before she is in A-game form. I mean, Adelina's jump technique was not that great and she was never a stable jumper to begin with, and what with some body changes that she would have likely experienced in addition, she's going to have to do something like what Mao had to do after Vancouver to get to the top of the game.

Why would it take years for Sotnikova to get back on form? That's a stretch assumption. She only sat out 1 season, so she should be able to get her jumps back this season as well. Sotnikovas technique is nowhere as bad as Asadas was, so she's not going to have to rework everything.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Is it any 'luck' that the combination of rules and scale value scores changes made after Vancouver that has been 'decided' by the technical committee headed by Lakernik - Vice President of Russia Skating federation, who ALSO happened to be the technical controller in Sochi that downgraded Kim's BV the most out of all ladies, as well as upgraded all Sot's levels including ignore all her flaws?

Kim's Base value was highest at Vancouver: 60.9. Afterall she has some of the most difficult combination jumps outside the 3A: 2x 3lz3t, 2A3t, 3 ltz in her program. But after the post Vacouver COP number shredding that limit her ability to bring 2A3T since she don't do loop, as well as the mysterious downgrades on her levels by Lakernik, her LP BV at Sochi had to became 57.49.

Lets examine their base value vs 'intended' base value for SP + LP at Sochi.

SP BV: Kim (31.43), Sot (30.43), difference = 1 more to Kim
Had Kim fulfilled level 4 (+0.6), the difference would have been 1.6 more BV to Kim

LP BV: Kim (57.49), Sot (61.43), difference = 3.94 to Sot
Had Kim fulfilled level 4 on step sequences (+0.6) and spins (+0.3), the difference would have been
3.04 to Sot. Not able to do 2A3T is costly.

This is the first I've heard that the evil Russian plan to cheat Yuna to allow Adelina to win dates back to 2010. But it is as viable a theory as any other.

 

[plushyfan]

^

That's precisely the point, Sarah was not the best skater but the best skaters of the time made mistakes allowing Sarah to win. Yuna & Carolina did not.

Ok. I don't know who was the real winner. And I don't want to argue. I liked Adelina's skating, when finished the competition in our skating forum we all thought she was better than Yuna. I didn't feel Yuna's skating so strong than was in 2010. For me if anybody was robbed that is Carolina .

I just wanted to react to MAXSwaggfell's sentence:" But she's significantly better than three of the greatest ever in the sport? "

And Adelina won,but she didn't give herself the gold. She is a nice, talented girl isn't an evil person.

 

[Interspectator]

Just a reminder to everyone; please try to post within the thread's topic.
The topic is Adelina's return to competitive skating.
Thank you.

 

[cooper]

Just a reminder to everyone; please try to post within the thread's topic.
The topic is Adelina's return to competitive skating.
Thank you.

well the thread title is "if" adelina sotnikova returns..

 

[[email protected]]

If Adelina returns and I see no points to question that although some of the "critics" made numerous bets that she will never compete internationally again - she will possess OGM brand equity. It means +GOE and pcs. But I am sure it will last for 2 - 3 competitions maximum. If she fails to deliver she will be "downgraded" to the Gracie's level - 60-62 in pcs for mediocre performances. Mao has also very good brand equity and lots of values to support her high pcs. But if she falls often, UR her 3A and other jumps, flutzes, etc. and Liza stays consistent I just do not see a point in her substantial pcs margin over Liza by the end of the season.

 

[solani]

Ok. I don't know who was the real winner. And I don't want to argue. I liked Adelina's skating, when finished the competition in our skating forum we all thought she was better than Yuna. I didn't feel Yuna's skating so strong than was in 2010. For me if anybody was robbed that is Carolina .

I just wanted to react to MAXSwaggfell's sentence:" But she's significantly better than three of the greatest ever in the sport? "

And Adelina won,but she didn't give herself the gold. She is a nice, talented girl isn't an evil person.

I fully agree.
And I have a problem with the "three of the greatest ever in the sport". Not that I think that the top 3 ladies of the last 7-9 years are not great, but what are the "greatest ever" in the sport? The top 5? The top 10 or the top 20? Rules, training and equipment have changed so much, we can't really say how today's skaters would compare to those 50 years ago. Jumps weren't that important 40 years ago and now they're the most important thing.
As was mentioned before, under the 6.0 system Adelina might have won also and without this uproar. All those who're bullying Adelina should start bullying the South Korean Fed (who voted against anonymous judging! and did not give Yuna Kim the support she would've needed imho) and leave Adelina alone. But if they're really only Yuna Kim fans and not figure skating fans we'll soon never hear from them again anyway. But most likely they'll stay until Adelina quits the sport, just to get their revenge on her. It's disgusting, really.

 

[plushyfan]

I fully agree.
And I have a problem with the "three of the greatest ever in the sport". Not that I think that the top 3 ladies of the last 7-9 years are not great, but what are the "greatest ever" in the sport? The top 5? The top 10 or the top 20? Rules, training and equipment have changed so much, we can't really say how today's skaters would compare to those 50 years ago. Jumps weren't that important 40 years ago and now they're the most important thing.
As was mentioned before, under the 6.0 system Adelina might have won also and without this uproar. All those who're bullying Adelina should start bullying the South Korean Fed (who voted against anonymous judging! and did not give Yuna Kim the support she would've needed imho) and leave Adelina alone. But if they're really only Yuna Kim fans and not figure skating fans we'll soon never hear from them again anyway. But most likely they'll stay until Adelina quits the sport, just to get their revenge on her. It's disgusting, really.

Right. And this is figure skating, there were debatable victories and unfortunately will be debatable victories in it. I admire Adelina because she wants to compete, she could do to never compete again, as Evan or Sarah did. She clearly knows the Yuna fans hate him. She knows many people will criticise her, many people will watch her with extra critical eyes, and they will be glad if she spoil the programs or will be beaten by the others .. She is brave and loves the skating.

 

[witcher]

Right. And this is figure skating, there were debatable victories and unfortunately will be debatable victories in it. I admire Adelina because she wants to compete, she could do to never compete again, as Evan or Sarah did.

Best senior skaters in the world compete in ISU Grand Prix events... :disapp:

 

[jg2000]

Best senior skaters in the world compete in ISU Grand Prix events... :disapp:

Will you stop beating her up over that? It's getting old, this slamming Adelina for every choice she does (or doesn't) make.

 

[plushyfan]

Best senior skaters in the world compete in ISU Grand Prix events... :disapp:

To compete in the Grand Prix is not obligatory. And maybe she will compete at Rostelecom Cup. She has place.

 

[Mathman]

The bottom line is that Sochi judging of the women's event was outrageous and those who defend it are equally outrageous. Whether it was fraudulent judging or the panel just getting carried away, it's outrageous. So maybe she did deserve to win. Fine. But she's significantly better than three of the greatest ever in the sport? No. Unfortunately for her, she won't be taken seriously again. Poor thing, really, but good luck to her.

Well, this is what I think (YMMD).

First, about the competition itself, Yuna Kim is an A+ skater who gave, for her, a B+ performance. Adelina Soknikova is a B+ skater who gave an A- performance.

If Kim had not been injured in the first half of the season, I think she would have won. If she had skated like she did at 2013 Worlds (we won’t mention 2010 Olympics), she would have won. She took a risk with the Adios music, and good for her for doing so; but if she had skated to Carmen I think she would have won.

Yuna has retired and moved on to the “And She Lived Happily Ever After” stage of her life. Adelina might win some more stuff and she might not, but either way she has a cool piece of hardware to display. To keep things in perspective, Jeremy Abbott has an Olympic medal from Sochi.

Now about the judging.

It is easy to be outraged; it is hard to offer a serious remedy. But I will try.

1. Under any judging system there will always be judges who are motivated by political expediency and patriotic bias. The key is to minimize the damage that such bad apples can do.

Under the IJS, two conspiring judges plus someone on the tech panel can easily toss in enough extra points here and there to leapfrog one skater over another unfairly. Under ordinal judging, this can’t happen. If five honest judges give Alice first place ordinals, while acknowledging that Suzie was pretty good, too, there is nothing that the other four crooked scoundrels can do about it, Putin or no Putin.

Thus suggestion #1:” Abandon the IJS and return to ordinal judging.

2. The other problem is that the ISU is not composed of individuals, but rather of National Federations. Each member of the ISU sends its team to the Olympics, comprising skaters, coaches, team leaders, judges and officials. It is the job of the team to bring home the goods. The judges are expected to do their part as team members, and by and large they do.

Suggestion #2: Abolish the ISU and create a new governance organization that does not have national bias hardwired into its judging process.

(Just my opinion.)

Edited to add: A sincerely apology to Newbiespectater. I am going to give myself an infraction for going off topic.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Will you stop beating her up over that? It's getting old, this slamming Adelina for every choice she does (or doesn't) make.

I think it's a fair criticism of her TBH. I'll give her the benefit of the doubt on injury last year but why on earth isn't someone who is serious about a comeback made available to be on the GP and instead relying on a host pick which lets face it is technically a favor from the fed. Fans of other Russian ladies skaters can and do feel a bit jaded when the fed comes out in the weeks leading up to the Nationals making statements saying no matter how well they perform Adelina will be given a chance in private skates to take an international assignment from them. Not that I wanted Yulia's season to continue but her international success, even that season , matched any of Adelina's to that point(December). In the end Adelina hadn't even returned to the ice until a few days before Nationals and wasn't even attempting jumps. Let's not forget Adelina's prior WC results and the fact the third spot was made available because of Yulia and Anna. Thank God Anna got that spot.

I don't think calling out Adelina to compete like the rest is in the least bit unfair. That is all. Especially considering her international track record outside of Sochi. I began to feel a bit burned when she was perfectly healthy and skipped worlds. As if she was more tired and burnt out than Yulia or Gracie who skated in more events that season. :think:

 

[witcher]

To compete in the Grand Prix is not obligatory. And maybe she will compete at Rostelecom Cup. She has place.

That's just harmful attitude for the sport, imo.
It reminds me of boxing a little bit, where top boxers are avoiding each other for years (sometimes the whole careers) to preserve their records and fame and make money performing vs "B-class" opponents. :disagree::disapp:

 

[begin]

I fully agree.
And I have a problem with the "three of the greatest ever in the sport". Not that I think that the top 3 ladies of the last 7-9 years are not great, but what are the "greatest ever" in the sport? The top 5? The top 10 or the top 20? Rules, training and equipment have changed so much, we can't really say how today's skaters would compare to those 50 years ago. Jumps weren't that important 40 years ago and now they're the most important thing.
As was mentioned before, under the 6.0 system Adelina might have won also and without this uproar. All those who're bullying Adelina should start bullying the South Korean Fed (who voted against anonymous judging! and did not give Yuna Kim the support she would've needed imho) and leave Adelina alone. But if they're really only Yuna Kim fans and not figure skating fans we'll soon never hear from them again anyway. But most likely they'll stay until Adelina quits the sport, just to get their revenge on her. It's disgusting, really.

The KSU gets "bullied" plenty. They've never been useful to Yuna's figure skating career or the legacy she's left behind so that's a decade long criticism that's not ending anytime soon.

All this roundabout discussion is hopeless. Full disclosure: I don't believe Adelina should've won in Sochi and had her firmly in third. I also believe she's a capable skater and deserves to be treated as legitimate competition when she comes back.

Now for the purpose of this thread--are disagreeable methods of judging going to be used next season involving Adelina and/or many other contenders? Probably, but that's nothing new and not to be blamed on any of the skaters themselves. There is no one-true victim or perpetrator among them, and I think we need to stop displacing our frustrations with a system on the wrong people. @Mathman off-topic or not, thank you for your input. I would choose option #2 but we are so desperately without leadership capable of guiding the sport through overhaul

 

[plushyfan]

That's just harmful attitude for the sport, imo.
It reminds me of boxing a little bit, where top boxers are avoiding each other for years (sometimes the whole careers) to preserve their records and fame and make money performing vs "B-class" opponents. :disagree::disapp:

OMG! What do you think what is the main reason why the skaters want to compete in the Grand Prix? Because they can earn money.

 

[begin]

OMG! What do you think what is the main reason why the skaters want to compete in the Grand Prix? Because they can earn money.

And standings. You want the magic of the zambonis at worlds.