If judges were strict with prerotation?

[Mafke]

Nobody cared,

Don't be silly... Kwan got a fair amount of criticism for her flutz (by 2002 not as bad as it had been), some for her layback and other features.
Sarah Hughes got _lots_ of criticism for her under-rotation (and some for her flutz)
Slutskaya for telegraphing jumps
Pre-rotation wasn't something people were looking at then....
Why try to rewrite history?

 

[sinus]

Kaori Sakamoto 2022 China
Lutz, wrong edge (not in scoresheet though), full blade assist, pre-rotation about 180.
GOE 4 4 3 3 3 3 4 4 3

 

[sinus]

Young You 2022 China
Flip, unclear edge, pre-rotation 180

 

[sinus]

Pre-rotation wasn't something people were looking at then....

So why do they ("people", not judges) are looking at it now? Always screaming about "Tutberidze girls" as if its Tutberidze who is invented and exclusively uses it.

 

[yume]

Even skaters seen as strong jumpers excessively prerotate. The difference with Tutberidze's skaters? They are less in the spotlight and they (or their coaches) get less to no hate.

Rika Kihira is a rare gem. She has all 6 triples with correct edges and minimal prerotation. Actually the best jumper imo, in terms of technique and jumps arsenal.
Now most of her jumps aren't as impressive as Sakamoto's because of less distance and speed. And Sakamoto gets higher GOEs though she prerotates way more and have a flutz. That's because what matters is how the jump looks, not how it's done (speaking of the jump itself, not the features as TR and rippons)

Depends about what prerotation we're talking about. Today, even 180 degrees is considered normal, but ideal is 90 for jumps like Toe Loop and Axels. Salchows and Loops have also natural preroation but I think skater can reach more than 90 and still be considered a good technique.

The main problem are jumps with over 180 degrees prerotation, and some skater prerotate almost 3/4 revolution on ice.

True that 180 degrees is now considered normal, but did ISU actualized his handbook or tutorial videos?

Jumps with more than 180 degrees should be really called doubles. As some Maia Khromykh's triples. I remember during 2016 gpf one of the B.esp uncles wondering if Satoko's 3lz should even be called a triple.

 

[Mafke]

The problem is that pre-rotation of quads seems to put too much strain on the backs of young skaters whose bodies are too fragile...
Show me a Turgeridze girl with a competitive career at 19.....
Kwan's 'bad technique' spanned a career of over 10 years... the current Russian girls are thrown away (by their coach... the federation.... after two or three years at the top).
That's not healthy or anything to prasie or emulate.

 

[Shayuki]

Tutberidze didn't invent pre-rotation, many actually do it just as much or even more. Tutberidze skaters just get discussed most because they win all the competitions and get all the videos made of them. No one really cares enough about most others to make videos and frame by frames of them. Pre-rotation is the dominant style of jumping right now in ladies. Miyahara is the one who first comes to mind but that of course was a problem with plenty of others as well.

There is some Russian talent who does not pre-rotate, for example Veronika Zhilina has pretty fantastic technique overall.

The problem is that pre-rotation of quads seems to put too much strain on the backs of young skaters whose bodies are too fragile...
Show me a Turgeridze girl with a competitive career at 19.....

Well, Tursynbaeva won worlds silver at 19 but I guess that doesn't count for one reason or another.

 

[Mafke]

Tutberidze didn't invent pre-rotation

WHAT????? You've shattered my whole paradigm!

More seriously, the pre-rotation is less an issue of quads - ugly jumps that make skating unwatchable (for me).

If I had my way.... a quad would only count in a program if a skater had all 6 triples....

Skating is supposed to be about technique (look at my icon) and the dominant technique now... is nothing I want to watch. I haven't watched since 2014 except a few excerpts of ladies this week... and I'm out again.
From the excerpts I've seenm Shcherbakova has a lot going for her and I might like watching her skate a full and varied program rather than ripping out a couple of quads and skating around aimlessly for the rest of the program...

 

[Warwick360]

Javier Fernandez wouldn't have won 2 world champions.

Genuinely curious. What was wrong with Javi's jumps?

I always thought they were one of the soundest jumps in men.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Genuinely curious. What was wrong with Javi's jumps?

I always thought they were one of the soundest jumps in men.

They are.
If you ignore prerotation.
3F and 3Lz 1/2 or over.
Sal and toe often over 1/2
Axel about 1/2.
Lutz edge suspect
When you look at his jumps, they are nice and aesthetically pleasing. Neat, +3 jumps. When you look in slow motion, then the problems are revealed.

No disrespect to Javi, I've always enjoyed him more than the others, but a commentary on jump technique in generalm

 

[Mafke]

only 4 skaters with ratified 4lz in this world.
- There would be just a few women with actual triples.

Good! Harsh truth is always better than pretty lies...

 

[wakuwaku]

I don't if it's possible, but to answer the question in the title:
- There would be only 4 skaters with ratified 4lz in this world.
- There would be just a few women with actual triples.

And that's the exact reason ISU would never punish prerotation - or they won't be allowed to implement such rule in congress even if they propose it. Because federations cares about their current skaters success - and "perfect" technique has no value for them if it makes everything harder for their stars. Therefore I don't see any sense in how much attention is paid to prerotation many years now in fans community - it just spending time and efforts in vain. I would discuss other things with much more chances to make skating better instead of trying to find faults in a skaters they don't like.

....aaaand why does Shcherbakova get positive GOE for that?

And why she shouldn't? Takeoff is directly forbidden to be viewed in slo-mo in rules for TP - and judges assess GOEs in real time (i.e. they don't use slo-mo) as well. In real time her jumps (as well as Shoma's jumps etc.) are looking good - and it's all that matters

 

[ks777]

Those aren't that bad at all. Mai Asada had the worst jump technique..
She toe-axel her 2nd jump.

æµç°è Mai Asada - 2003 World Jr. Free Skating - Violin Concerto No.1 by Paganini

Mai Asada (14 years old) / æµç°è (14æ³) / Ðай ÐÑада (14 леÑ)2003 World Junior Figure Skating Championships, February 24 - March 2, Ostrava, Czech Republic. 2003...

www.youtube.com

 

[Flying Feijoa]

There would be only 4 skaters with ratified 4lz in this world.

Just checking - would that be Jin, Kolyada, Chen, Hanyu?

 

[yume]

Just checking - would that be Jin, Kolyada, Chen, Hanyu?

Yes. However, i forgot Malinin. He seems to have an outside edge and no more than 90 degrees of prerotation.

 

[akoko]

If I had my way.... a quad would only count in a program if a skater had all 6 triples....

I had a similar thought.
I wondered if it wouldn't be fairer if a skater had six triples (or quad, and in the case of axel, double or triple), he/she could get an additional point as each skater has ones that they like and ones that they don't like. Just a silly thought.

 

[yume]

If I had my way.... a quad would only count in a program if a skater had all 6 triples.... Skating is supposed to be about technique (look at my icon) and the dominant technique now... is nothing I want to watch.

Knowing that some top skaters were/are not even usually attempting 5 triples (Yuna Kim, Loena Hendrickx), that's a difficult task.

 

[Mista Ekko]

If judges were strict with prerotation the American GOAT Michelle Kwan wouldn't have win anything.​

Michelle Kwan's Lutz, 2002.​

Wrong edge, full blade assist, pre-rotation over 180.
(Anna Shcherbakova hadn't been born yet.)
Nobody cared, as long as she is not a Russian.

Oh so this thread has turned into another Russia Vs US whataboutism

Anyway, that assessment is false imo because wether someone wins titles or not depends on their
contemporaries and how they are also judged and I'm pretty sure whatever issues Michelle had with
rotations you would've also seen with Lu Chen and Sarah Hughes, and even my darling
Irina Slutskaya probably would've had most of her 3-3s <<, Butyrskaya I'm not sure about but she was
prone to double footed landings.

Michelle was the queen of consistency and the lyrical style and that's why they gave her all those FS wins
despite losing a bunch of SPs, I assume because of technique and stuff like that.

 

[Mafke]

top skaters were/are not even usually attempting 5 triples

Again, the system gets what it rewards.
I had an idea where jumps (with the same number of rotations) weren't rewarded for inherent difficulty, instead a skater got points for as many different jumps as posible.
So that the first triple gets X number of points (as does any repitition of that jump)
Second different triple gets X + Y number of points
Third different triple gets X + Y + Z number of points etc

Obviously it would take a while and a period of beta testing and tweaking to get the numbers right but I like the idea of rewarding different jumps more than just cranking out more revolutions.

 

[silveruskate]

Based purely on my own skating experience I think it would be very difficult. Once you're doing doubles and triples, the movements are very ingrained. You would need to do a lot of singles and pretty much re-learning the jumps. It seems like there's a big difference between 90 degrees versus 180+ degrees of rotation but it's hard to control your body to that level of detail with something like a jump takeoff which happens so quickly and becomes so automatic after doing it for years.

Instead of just mindlessly bashing skaters, first real answer to my question thank you!!!