Is Grand Prix series ready to downsize to 5 events?

[lariko]

@lariko I am glad you are warming up to ice dance which wasn't your cup of tea when you first joined this forum if I recall correctly.

If you are bored with the current men/pairs/women, have a look at former greats and see for yourself why we had better programs back then.... Too many quads now... less skating.

I am watching current Russian juniors men and women because they are really what hits the balance perfectly for me, Russian senior men because they are stronger than international on average now, senior Russian pairs because absolutely nothing is better than that, Malinin because nobody is better than him and all ice dance except Russian senior ID.

 

[4everchan]

I am watching current Russian juniors men and women because they are really what hits the balance perfectly for me, Russian senior men because they are stronger than international on average now, senior Russian pairs, Malinin and all ice dance except Russian senior ID.

Enjoy yourself. I haven't followed Russian skating, I don't miss it (i miss some skaters I liked very much but not Russian skating in itself)... anyways, many Russians are now skating on the circuit.

 

[lariko]

Enjoy yourself. I haven't followed Russian skating, I don't miss it (i miss some skaters I liked very much but not Russian skating in itself)... anyways, many Russians are now skating on the circuit.

When they do, I cheer for them, but Russian national skating is developing in its own entity, most particularly Russian juniors. I understand Russian, so having commentary by Grishin, Medvedeva, Kolyada and Scherbakova is an added bonus as well. They didn't have Kolyada this season yet, but last season he blew my mind by how deeply intelligenzia he was and how far from the snide and hounded athlete we had seen in press conference he actually is. Medvedeva and Sherbakova are amazing when they team up.

 

[lariko]

But to go back to my original point: Russians reduced their number of events in seniors which produced better results in men. I don't think anything can help senior women for the next 2-3 years until the age limit change is absorbed and new career approaches are adopted. Aratyunyuan spoke about it quite clearly in respect to Samodelkina (which Russian press chose to grossly misinterpret as they fell over one another to bash her). But pairs and men will clearly be better with fewer stages and will preserve both health of the athletes and the high profile of the international Grand Prix.

 

[4everchan]

But to go back to my original point: Russians reduced their number of events in seniors which produced better results in men. I don't think anything can help senior women for the next 2-3 years until the age limit change is absorbed and new career approaches are adopted. Aratyunyuan spoke about it quite clearly in respect to Samodelkina (which Russian press chose to grossly misinterpret as they fell over one another to bash her). But pairs and men will clearly be better with fewer stages and will preserve both health of the athletes and the high profile of the international Grand Prix.

Yet, there are skaters, quite nice to watch who don't even get assignments for instance, Lara Naki Gutmann who medalled this week GP Finland. Russians can reduce the number of events they have, they can control the number of skaters they want because anyways, they are all Russian... but reducing an international series makes absolutely no sense to me... you'd lose many of these skaters like Lara. Obviously, I respect your opinion but I am disagreeing strongly with it.

 

[moonvine]

It has always been like this. I remember Marina Butyrskaya winning Grand Prix events in the late 90s landing 3 or 4 triples. There were dire Grand Prix events in the 90s and 00s. You kids ain't seen nothing!

I actually think the Challenger Series is a bigger detriment and has made the Grand Prix redundant.

Huh? I don't agree at all. The Challenger Series for me is the place where many skaters go to hopefully one day qualify for GP (some already do of course). Its where skaters go to hopefully make tech minimums for Euros, 4CCs, Worlds, Olympics. For the most part there aren't the big stars there, of course there are exceptions, some skaters want a tuneup or whatnot. I LOVE to watch Challengers, if I can find any I can watch. They are very frustrating that way.
GP are a step up, they have the highest scoring skaters. Obviously yes I want to watch them, but there are many skaters I like who may never get a GP spot, or who it is a subject of much rejoicing if they ever do get a GP spot.
Then there are international competitions that aren't even Challengers, comps like Philadelphia International, I love those, of course there is absolutely no way for me to see them unless I actually go to them.
I would love to see more GPs and see more Challengers that I could have a way to watch.

 

[moonvine]

Your friend is a wise one. I'm being a fan since mid 90. They have really seen nothing and know nothing.

I grew up watching skating with my mom. I remember Scott Hamilton, the Battle of the Brians, etc. But really I didn't know anything. We only had access to what the networks showed us. I didn't know for ages there were more than 6 people in a skating competition.
Had no idea how skaters made Nationals, etc. Now even though I complain about not being able to watch all the Challengers I want to watch it's still so much better.

 

[moonvine]

I'd like to see it keep 6 events but have one of the events always be a "traveling" event, which is pretty much what is happening now with Rostelecom out. How about holding it in Hungary, Germany, Mexico, U.K., Korea, Switzerland, etc. The logistics would probably be complicated, but it might be fun to shake things up a bit.

Hosting a figure skating comp costs A LOT OF MONEY. The venue starts breaking down the ice the second the last skater leaves.
If you don't have the fan base in the country to generate interest, you're going to lose your shirt. I could see some of those countries working, especially Korea. I don't think Mexico would work. But what do I know.

 

[moonvine]

Disagree about the scoring being the issue. Unless you ARE a diehard fan that's followed the sport for years, you probably don't have a clue about the scoring. What might look beautiful and good to the average eye might be full of URs, doubles instead of triples, etc. and so on and so on. In any case, I don't personally think that keeps people away. It comes down to total lack of exposure. You have to pay for Peacock and the main broadcasts are sparse and sandwiched in between football games and rife with a jillion commercials. We already have the so-called diehard fans watching skating in person and on TV. To increase crowds you have to reach the "average' viewer and that means exposure to the sport.

I don't know. I was in Greensboro and got invited into a suite to explain (or attempt to) scoring to the nice people in there. They were all upset that Mariah Bell was not going to win due to the difficulty of Alysa Liu's program, regardless of whether or not Alysa made errors. It doesn't make sense to the casual fan, which is who we are trying to attract.

 

[moonvine]

Also, need to give these GP stages that nations willing to fill the arenas. Look at Skate America and Skate Canada small arenas only half filled. Compare what the Lithuanians did last year with Europeans filling a huge modern arena with an enthusiastic crowd. Take it off the Canadians or Americans for one year give it to somewhere like Lithuania, it might force them to lift their game. It looks bad on TV watching an event in a shabby arena half filled, compared to how good Europeans looked last year in a bright modern arena full of enthusiastic people.

Add a Lithuanian, don't take one away.

 

[moonvine]

Of course not. Why would i? All I say, is that a careers need to be planned in advance differently now than it was before. I think there is a way to plan a break around the natural time of maximum body changes that is inevitable and individual to allow for change in technique and with long term development in mind with seniors being in the right mental space to commit to competing well into twenties.

I'd like to see them compete to late 20's early 30's. The men already are.

 

[moonvine]

Then, don't watch I mean, some events are better than others I still enjoy. Pairs : Max and Deanna were stellar yesterday. Flawless performance of the highest level technically.

I enjoy all. I love my skating doctor.

 

[moonvine]

I'm a little confused...you seem to be suggesting fewer competitions so that skater's bodies do not break down. But if they wanted to take a shot at the GPF they would still need to skate at 2 GPs.
I always felt kind of bad for the skaters that there are so few competitions.
I watch collegiate gymnastics and they have a competition every week. But they train fewer hours.

 

[Arriba627]

Hosting a figure skating comp costs A LOT OF MONEY. The venue starts breaking down the ice the second the last skater leaves.
If you don't have the fan base in the country to generate interest, you're going to lose your shirt. I could see some of those countries working, especially Korea. I don't think Mexico would work. But what do I know.

True. That's problem #1. You have to have countries that WANT to hold the event...Mexico City would be like CO. because of the altitude.

 

[Lyyli]

Figure skating is a hard sport for those viewers who can´t stand failures and really don´t realize how difficult it is to skate a clean or cleanish program in a competition. There is of course an understandable reason for failures: jumps are extremely difficult and to put them in a program with steps, turns and other elements in competition pressure makes them even more challenging. Skaters will struggle with them in the future too, also elite skaters. I don´t see any reason to skip a GP event. If viewers don´t learn to respect skaters also when they fail, they can of course skip as many events as they wish.

 

[TT_Fin]

A fed must also apply for the event. Our Korean friend was at their nationals live and even it was crowded as she told. IMO Korea should apply for more events. If you remove from Finland's audience people who are skaters, their friends and family, I think more than 50 % would be out. Main reason is that marketing is low. Here at the hotel I stay is in the lobby " What is happening in the town" -board. The are announcements about soccer games etc but nothing about Finlandia Trophy, thouhg this is only 15 minutes walk from the arena.

I won't miss this event in Finland especially though I have enjoyed. What I know now I will not come for three days Gp event any more. Too few skaters / one day.

But if you want only elite skaters then event should be only in countries where are only elite skaters, not just one but several to make sure people come to watch. There are always people who watch only if there are athletes from their own country, not just fs but every sport.

 

[TT_Fin]

I continue a bit. Skaters as well athletes overalls have ups and downs. We have seen that. There have been unexpected surprises, in good and bad. Skaters you never expected to medal at worlds, medals. Skaters you expect to medal or at least end top10 struggle at sp and do nit make to the free and lose their possibility for 2 Gp. And next season they come back stronger than ever and medal at Gp if they getxa spot. I don't get the problem. Skaters have one orvtwo events, nationals and they all can choose what else they do. Just check who will be there and skip the events you don't like. That is what I do.

 

[lariko]

Yet, there are skaters, quite nice to watch who don't even get assignments for instance, Lara Naki Gutmann who medalled this week GP Finland. Russians can reduce the number of events they have, they can control the number of skaters they want because anyways, they are all Russian... but reducing an international series makes absolutely no sense to me... you'd lose many of these skaters like Lara. Obviously, I respect your opinion but I am disagreeing strongly with it.

The way Gutmann performed in Challengers and if she did well in Eu/Worlds, she'd qualify for GP next year with 5 or 6 events. Plus whenever someone withdraws, they fill back from highest scores in Challengers, so if any skater starts performing above previous year, they will likely get placement with fewer events. Junior GP is designed to encompas literally every skater who wants to compete, and so do the Challengers. GP is supposed to be different. What's the point then to have both Challengers and GP if absolutely anyone can be in GP...

Yes, individual skaters have ups and downs, but when they both reduce the technical content and still on the downside simultaneously and collectively, that's a sign of trouble. I mean, apart from Torgashev and Malinin literally no men this season delivered anything worth remembering.

 

[4everchan]

The way Gutmann performed in Challengers and if she did well in Eu/Worlds, she'd qualify for GP next year with 5 or 6 events. Plus whenever someone withdraws, they fill back from highest scores in Challengers, so if any skater starts performing above previous year, they will likely get placement with fewer events. Junior GP is designed to encompas literally every skater who wants to compete, and so do the Challengers. GP is supposed to be different. What's the point then to have both Challengers and GP if absolutely anyone can be in GP...

not always true... before your time... Osmond (yes, future Olympic and world Champion) didn't get a GP... she got a host spot at SCI and won... and never got another event... it happens some years that there are less w/ds and less opportunities for those outside of the guaranteed 2 spots.. so imagine with one event less...

Fabbri -Ayer this year is another example... They are doing well, just a couple points below the podium in Tallinn, medaled at their other event... and because they were Canada's number 4 or 5, they are not yet "recognized" and would not get anything if not for host spots and replacement list.

In their case, they are rising in the standings. It's important that a series has the top of the cream, elite skaters and aspiring skaters. It allows the younger, aspiring skaters, to develop, to emulate, to look up at the more established skaters, feel they belong and learn what they have to improve to themselves, one day be in those skates... If you were to cut down, even just 10 teams from the circuit, you wouldn't have the Koreans at GP of France... Is that really what you want ?

 

[lariko]

not always true... before your time... Osmond (yes, future Olympic and world Champion) didn't get a GP... she got a host spot at SCI and won... and never got another event... it happens some years that there are less w/ds and less opportunities for those outside of the guaranteed 2 spots.. so imagine with one event less...

Fabbri -Ayer this year is another example... They are doing well, just a couple points below the podium in Tallinn, medaled at their other event... and because they were Canada's number 4 or 5, they are not yet "recognized" and would not get anything if not for host spots and replacement list.

In their case, they are rising in the standings. It's important that a series has the top of the cream, elite skaters and aspiring skaters. It allows the younger, aspiring skaters, to develop, to emulate, to look up at the more established skaters, feel they belong and learn what they have to improve to themselves, one day be in those skates... If you were to cut down, even just 10 teams from the circuit, you wouldn't have the Koreans at GP of France... Is that really what you want ?

Honestly, if the events actually provide a competition worth watching, anyone who individually doesn’t make it--just like when someone doesn't make GPF because the way podiums came out--well, that's fine. Since the longevity is the new norm and the pool is small, they will simply make it next year.

Ice dance has always been stacked like that with a lot of couples not making it. Once they have enough mastery, they will. They now skate well past 30.