Is it me or the blades? | Golden Skate

Is it me or the blades?

Sk8rgrl234

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Joined
Mar 29, 2026
I have been struggling to do 3's, back 3-turns, back spins and loop jumps since a few years ago when I got new Pattern 99 blades after skating in old Pattern 99's that had almost no bevel left. Around this same time, I had the heels lowered as there was too much pressure on the ball of my foot. That is better and I feel my stance on the ice is good (though I may experiment with adding a stack on the heel), but when I go to try anything backward to forward, it feels like I can't get any grip on the outside edge, particularly the middle. On back 3's this makes it so I can't stop the turn and it keeps rotating, or better yet, the blade goes out from under me and I have a really weird fall. I also can't quite get the edge I want on scratch spins, it feels lie all I have is a small part right behind the toe pick and if I go back on the blade even a little, I've had it also go right out from under me and have a really weird fall again. I have felt it even on inside spirals where it feels like the back of the blade has no edge or isn't touching the ice. I've tried moving the blade inward and outward a bit, but nothing makes a significant difference. I also sharpened and mounted a slightly older pair of Pattern 99's and get similar or even worse results. These are moves that I could normally do in my sleep practically and are the basis for so much else. I'm dying to get my edge back. Any suggestions?
 
It's hard to do a proper diagnosis over the aether. But I would recommend that you (or someone you trust) check that the edges of your blades are level. The Pattern 99 has plain-vanilla parallel sides: no tapered thickness, no complex side honing. So it's straightforward to check the levelness of the edges with a small precision machinist's square (still needs a bit of practice though). There are also magnetic level checkers. The ultimate tool in this instance is a Hollow Depth Indicator (HDI) gauge. Ask around your rink to see who has the right tools (including techs and coaches who handle hockey skates: same tools and methods as for P99s). Check the levelness at multiple (~6 or so) spots along the length of the blade (toe to heel).
 
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Thanks, i checked the price on those HDI's and they're out of my price range. I had gotten the blades sharpened by Fred at Detroit Skating Club, who I assume did a careful job of checking this, as I had an actual consultation with him before he sharpened them. He had me get on the ice where I could show him what is happening/not happening. Three sharpenings by him and still no significant improvement. I've since gone back to my local sharpener who has always done a good job. I imagine I could check this at home with an L-brace out of my tool chest.
 
Thanks, i checked the price on those HDI's and they're out of my price range. I had gotten the blades sharpened by Fred at Detroit Skating Club, who I assume did a careful job of checking this, as I had an actual consultation with him before he sharpened them. He had me get on the ice where I could show him what is happening/not happening. Three sharpenings by him and still no significant improvement. I've since gone back to my local sharpener who has always done a good job. I imagine I could check this at home with an L-brace out of my tool chest.
An L-brace would likely not have enough precision. A small machinist's square is a general purpose tool; you might want to consider buying one of those. The HDI gauge and magnetic level checkers are limited to only one application. That's why I suggested that you ask around for someone who has an appropriate tool (it's probably easiest to find someone with an appropriate machinist's square).

Another check you should make, especially since you've been playing around with the blade mounting: check that each blade is straight. For this, all you need is a decent rigid steel ruler or straight edge long enough to run the entire length of the blade. Place the edge of the ruler or straight edge against the side of the blade on a portion that has chrome plating (i.e., not along the chrome relief close to the edges of the blade). Double check both sides (inside and outside) of each blade.
 
A sharpening from Fred at DSC should be good to go. You may have defective blades, it does happen.
 
I have been to Fred with them. I'm wondering if it's how they're mounted. I tried a pair of slightly older P99's and got pretty much the same results. In fact, I was out today and I can do a scratch spin if I catch the very front of the blade but then I had one of those weird falls again where the blade just slid out from under me as if there was no edge right when i think I'm going to center the spin. Even on a forward inside spiral I have a hard time getting a firm edge it feels like mostly toward the heel is lacking. And even on forward 3 turns I don't feel a strong edge on either of these blades. And i just got both pairs of these blades sharpened.
 
I have been to Fred with them. I'm wondering if it's how they're mounted. I tried a pair of slightly older P99's and got pretty much the same results. In fact, I was out today and I can do a scratch spin if I catch the very front of the blade but then I had one of those weird falls again where the blade just slid out from under me as if there was no edge right when i think I'm going to center the spin. Even on a forward inside spiral I have a hard time getting a firm edge it feels like mostly toward the heel is lacking. And even on forward 3 turns I don't feel a strong edge on either of these blades. And i just got both pairs of these blades sharpened.

Assuming that:

(1) There are no manufacturing defects (such as stanchions are not orthogonal to mounting plates; or blade is bent)

(2) The entire longitudinal profile (toe to heel), but in particular the spin rocker profile, is OK (no manufacturing defect; no screwed-up sharpening)

(3) The edges are level along the entire length of the blade, excluding the non-sharpenable zone behind the drag pick (no screwed-up sharpening)

(4) The blades as mounted are straight (no manufacturing defect; no screwed-up mounting)

[All of the above assumptions should be verified by a competent tech. If you have faith in your tech, then proceed. Otherwise have an independent verification.]


Then I would recommend going back to basics to check your blade mounts. One of my previous posts:


* For skating, an initial series of tests to check for supination/pronation consists of one-foot glides in a nominally straight line. [Caveat: First check to make sure that your blades have been sharpened properly with level edges.]

- Stroke forward to pick up some speed. Glide comfortably on two feet in a nominally straight line. Then lift up one foot (let’s choose the right in this instance) and continue to glide on the other (the left in this instance). Don't force the glide to control it; just let it flow at ease. It’s best to have another person observe you from the back. Ideally, you should glide in a straight line. If possible, do the test on a clean patch of ice. Look at the tracing. Ideally you should see two lines of equal weight, such as | |. If you supinate, you will be biased towards the outside edge; you will veer to the left, and the tracing will look like this: | | (outside edge will be heavier). If you pronate, you will be biased towards the inside edge; you will veer to the right; and the tracing will look like this: | | (inside edge with be heavier). [In extremely screwed-up scenarios, you will see only a single heavy line.]

- Repeat with the other foot: lift up the left, glide on the right.

- Then repeat with one-foot glides backwards.

* Once you’ve made adjustments (see previous post), if needed, such that the one-foot glides are OK, then follow-up with consecutive forward outside edges, consecutive forward inside edges, consecutive backward outside edges, consecutive backward inside edges, forward X-overs (both directions), and backward X-overs (both directions) to determine whether any fine tuning is needed,
 
... maybe this is a very long shot, but:
May it be the case that your boots have become too soft over time and thus the way you transmit bodily movements via the boot to the blade and further to the ice is altered compared to when the boots were new?
Do you have the chance to try new/ other boots ...?
Maybe just ask someone with similar foot size/ shape to shortly lend you his/her skates to test ...?
 
I assume you have a coach, and have asked that person for help? :) That might be your best bet.

Like tstop4me said, try lay a straight edge against the side of the blade. it is quite likely your new blades are warped.

I'm not an engineer, and I don't buy the fancy stuff like tstop4me. Of course the fancy stuff is best.

But maybe you could try hanging that L-Brace over both sides of the blade. If, when there is no visible space between the side of the blade and one leg of the brace on either side, when the corner touches the corner between the tops of the inverted blade and the side, that would be a good sign. Again, if there is a little space, but it is exactly the same on both sides, that would be too. However, if the L-Brace has a curved corner shape, that would be a hard test to do.

A large heavy square might not be a good idea. The weight might damage the edge.

I have used plastic dollar store squares the same way. But, again, you need a square that has a right angle, corner, not a curved corner. And it has to be an interior right angle, not an exterior one. You may also want to cut it down, so it has very little weight.

You can get decent straight edges at dollar stores. But try placing and sliding two such straight edges against each other, to verify they are really straight. You may be able to do that before you buy them.

I have also laid popsickle sticks across the top of the inverted blade, and sighted along the blade, to see whether the edges are consistent. (You can find popsicles at the dollar store too.)

If the hollow is smooth enough to reflect like a mirror, you can also sight down it, and see whether the reflection has a wavy pattern, or whether it is consistent. I've seen good skate techs do that right after sharpening. But after skating, the hollow often isn't left that smooth. And whether you get such a mirror finish might depend on the coarseness of the sharpening wheel, and whether whether the tech used a polish (like oil) while sharpening.

You say you had your heel lowered. That might well mean you are balancing on a different part of the blade, which makes doing things harder. One of the major things a good coach might be able to notice.
 
A large heavy square might not be a good idea. The weight might damage the edge.
<<Emphasis added.>>

How so? A large heavy square is not a good idea for several reasons (e.g., not enough clearance between the edges and the mounting plates or outsole, too unwieldy to manipulate the square with one hand while holding the skate with the other hand, ...). But how would the weight damage the edges?

I grasp the beam of the square with one hand, press the beam of the square against one side of the skating blade (with the blade of the square above the edges of the skating blade), and then slide the beam of the square down slowly and carefully until the blade of the square lightly contacts one or both of the edges of the skating blade. The weight of the square is borne primarily by my hand grasping the beam of the square. There should be only light contact pressure exerted by the blade of the square on one or both of the edges of the skating blade. The weight of the square is not borne by one or both of the edges of the skating blade.

That's how I use a square. How do you use it?
 
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BTW I suspect the most likely explanation for the o.p.'s issue is that the blades are warped. (Which might also have resulted in sharpening with asymmetric edges, because of the way sharpening machines work, unless one uses an expensive blade holder that removes the bend.) If they are too badly warped, it is going to be hard to use them. And I was told that straightening a blade with too big a warp risks breaking them. (But it sounds like the blades are old enough that returning them isn't an option.)

(Or maybe that her old blades were warped - and she got used to compensating for that, by changing her skating gate to roll through the warp? I suppose that is possible.)

(I still don't really understand why blade warping is so common - especially from relatively expensive brands like JW & MK. Pattern 99's aren't the most expensive blades, but they certainly aren't cheap. They really ought to have better quality control, and not ship the warped ones.)

Though I still wonder if the skate tech(s) could have altered the profile on the old or new blades in such a way as to change the way the blades behave. Or simply that as metal was removed on the old blades, she learned to compensate to avoid the toepick by balancing further back on the blades. And that she now balances further forward... Or that it is somehow a consequence of the lowered heels.

I don't see how to figure that sort of thing out without a good coach's help. Most of the skate techs I have met wouldn't be competent to help with that sort of thing - some of them don't know much about figure skating. Of course, some coaches don't know much about blades - but maybe coaches are a better starting point.

[B]Sk8rgrl234[/B]: have you asked a good coach to help you figure it out?


tstop4me: If I understand right, you press the vertical leg against the side of the blade, so there is no gap there, and look to see if the horizontal leg touches both edges? If it only touches one edge, you conclude the edges aren't symmetric?

I place it balanced across both edges, and press down on it a little to keep it there. So the weight and the pressed pressure is borne by the edges. So I need a light enough square that there is very little pressure on the edges, or it might damage them. (And it would be even worse if I accidentally slide it across the edges a little as I place it there.) I look to see if there is any gap between the vertical edge and the side of the blade. I like my way, because the vertical side is long, so the gap is wide, and is easy to see. (Yes, that only works because my blades have flat vertical sides. But as you noted, you assume that too.)

An issue I ran into while trying squares that were just a little too big (obviously, I wasn't choosing the really big squares, where the vertical leg would hit the side of the boot, and make this impossible): They aren't stable, balanced across the two edges, so it is hard to make sure they are contacting both edges. I need to add a lot of pressure to keep them balanced, which could easily damage the edges. With a very lightweight plastic square, I need relatively little pressure.

But your way, maybe you can still see the gap with a magnifying glass? I hadn't thought of that.

BTW, with an L-Brace, I'm not sure any of them have a well enough formed right angle. In particular, are they all created by bending the metal, resulting in a rounded corner, rather than formed in a way that creates a sharp right angle corner? I haven't actually tried any of them. I saw some images of L-braces which are obviously rounded, but maybe they aren't all that way?

I chose the cheap plastic squares because I think they are stamp cut, so they can have sharp corners (though for some reason, a lot of them don't - many actually have rounded corners, which seems pretty useless). But also, machinist grade tools are expensive (and have no good reason to buy them, since I lack access to a machine shop, or even good quality woodworking shop tools).

Plus there is a certain appeal and elegance to figuring out how to make do with cheap tools, like dollar store tools and popsickle sticks. But obviously, the really good tools tend to be easier and faster to use, and you shouldn't need to compensate for potential flaws.

I just realized that my test for straight edges in cheap tools isn't complete: two straight edges could slide smoothly against each other without a gap if one has a convex edge, and one has a concave edge. I should also turn one of them upside down, place it over the other, and verify that isn't true.

Anyway, this is getting off-topic.
 
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