Is it time for the ISU to start banning dangerous people from the sport? | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Is it time for the ISU to start banning dangerous people from the sport?

Diana Delafield

Frequent flyer
Medalist
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Oct 22, 2022
Country
Canada
This is a problem in all sports, not just figure skating.
And in the arts. Mainly in dance, but it occurs in other fields like singing, where a teacher during private lessons makes excuses to handle a pupil's body while teaching diaphragmatic breathing, for instance. Or acting classes where some teachers are prone to screaming at or belittling students. One music student told me "You're safest if you learn some loud, heavy instrument, like the tuba. You can block the teacher and 'accidentally' deafen them if they get too close."
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
If they are found guilty at a court trial then they have bigger problems than a competitive ban.

Competitive bans should be given out under any evidence beyond a reasonable doubt and/or repeat accusation. Waiting on years of court procedure will be very lacklustre when it comes to athlete protection. Its a very difficult issue and will never be perfect.
I think we all agree that sexual harassment, sexual misconduct, sexual abuse of any form needs to stop and not be tolerated by the ISU. I think most of us are saying it does not have to be the same level of a criminal conviction beyond a reasonable doubt. Balance of probablility is acceptable. Physical abuse of any type should not be tolerated including mental abuse. But where do we draw the line is there "enough evidence". Separate from banning "dangerous people" from skating how do we create a more safe environment that skaters are not abused by anyone? I understand with people upset about alleged perpetrators but we do not want a system where people can make do I dare say even false allegations and ruin other lives in the mean time. I think someone said Elhenry is a lawyer. And they may have some insight. There has to be a balance of protecting the rights of all - the complainant, the accused and society. We do not want a witch hunt. Skating like other sports and n ot like other sports brings together success driven, physically fit individuals often with hormones raging because of their stage of life. People are dressed to the nines and it becomes its own environment or culture. There have been stories about sexual hook ups at theolympic games IN part maybe the attitude towards sex needs to change. I won't get into morality but it does not seem to be a big deal (when consensual) to many people. We need an attitude adjustment and more respect for ourselves and each other. Maybe if we learned sex isn't everything and respect for ourselves and others some of the challenges we have in our society and sport would not be so prevalent. It is sad that skaters become more known for being abused or for abusing or alleged abusing than their skating.
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
And in the arts. Mainly in dance, but it occurs in other fields like singing, where a teacher during private lessons makes excuses to handle a pupil's body while teaching diaphragmatic breathing, for instance. Or acting classes where some teachers are prone to screaming at or belittling students. One music student told me "You're safest if you learn some loud, heavy instrument, like the tuba. You can block the teacher and 'accidentally' deafen them if they get too close."
When I was in bible college my music teacher (voice) sent me to a specialist at another near by bible college to develop my voice which was rather odd - totally untrained but could sing really high (but not the poppy way more operatic or classical). The teacher kept on touching me inside my pants . He used the Bible that I was to be obedient. I never thought about it but I stopped taking voice lessons Eventually I was dropped from the singing group/team. I think it goes back to the environment and attitude towards people/students needs to change. Ironically I never sang again and have never regained my voice. I just hope that isn't happening to skaters. I kind of felt helpless; but I trusted the bible college. That this was normal. I worry about skaters if they have the ability to speak up and be heard. Granted maybe it was normal to touch genitals for singing; I never really thought about what had happened because other things happened at the bible college which seemed worse. I already had concerns about other things and was told to shut up, be quiet it didn't happen. So I just kind of lived with it. I don't think we want our skaters "living with it". I understand why Gracie and Ashley wanted to speak up or did. It is like your voice wasn't heard that night or incident. No one protected me. You just don't want people to feel horrible. And maybe you don't want the world or those around you to think you are a bad person. Like I wanted people to know it wasn't my fault, I was praying in the chapel, I didn't know that man, he was angry, mad, drunk. I wanted to say that I fought back but he raped me. It should never have happened period. Not only because it was in the chapel and I was praying but because everyone even me deserves respect. When people are in position of trust they must keep to a higher standard. We need to fairly rid of dangerous people from skating. this me creating an atmosphere where people feel safe and free to s peak up while at the smae time maintaiing the integrity of the system and fairness to the Accused so it does not become a witchung so to speak. I remember my teachers and pastors tell me i t was my fault and I l looked like a slut like I dressed asking for it (It was more trendy than anything) The point is we need safe environments not only to skate but to speak up. Traumatizing the vicitm more is not going to help.
 
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Mathematician

Pilgrim on a long journey
Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 8, 2023
I think we all agree that sexual harassment, sexual misconduct, sexual abuse of any form needs to stop and not be tolerated by the ISU. I think most of us are saying it does not have to be the same level of a criminal conviction beyond a reasonable doubt. Balance of probablility is acceptable. Physical abuse of any type should not be tolerated including mental abuse. But where do we draw the line is there "enough evidence". Separate from banning "dangerous people" from skating how do we create a more safe environment that skaters are not abused by anyone? I understand with people upset about alleged perpetrators but we do not want a system where people can make do I dare say even false allegations and ruin other lives in the mean time. I think someone said Elhenry is a lawyer. And they may have some insight. There has to be a balance of protecting the rights of all - the complainant, the accused and society. We do not want a witch hunt. Skating like other sports and n ot like other sports brings together success driven, physically fit individuals often with hormones raging because of their stage of life. People are dressed to the nines and it becomes its own environment or culture. There have been stories about sexual hook ups at theolympic games IN part maybe the attitude towards sex needs to change. I won't get into morality but it does not seem to be a big deal (when consensual) to many people. We need an attitude adjustment and more respect for ourselves and each other. Maybe if we learned sex isn't everything and respect for ourselves and others some of the challenges we have in our society and sport would not be so prevalent. It is sad that skaters become more known for being abused or for abusing or alleged abusing than their skating.
Well its either a legally equivalent standard or arbitrary. I think everyone agrees one single accusation shouldn't ruin a career, but then the question is what is the correct number of corroborating witnesses? No matter what it'll be arbitrary. I'd say 3 is a good number but I have no objective logic to prove that. Obviously if there is physical evidence like a recording or DNA then it overrides everything, but that goes to the legal level anyways.

I agree on your latter point but high level sports is a totally separate issue. There is a massive lack of self respect in society today which leads to unfortunate situations, but sport is more an issue with grooming and authority. In general if we're talking at what happens on the Olympic level its a different world, its much harder and more mysterious to fix because especially in skating for example these athletes dont grow up in society but basically only know sport and fame for their whole life which gives them a very specific psychology that isnt really fixable by just changing the moral status quo. Its not just natural hormones or whatever you were claiming but a more methodical psychological manipulation that has roots much deeper in history and celebrity-dom.
 

Skating91

Medalist
Joined
Sep 16, 2023
Until the sport gets serious about protecting children by having only children compete in juniors, and only adults in seniors, then there is not really anything to discuss.

If the sport is not willing to get serious about protecting children, then you can't individuals to take the lead especially when this is a sport that probably attracts the type of people willing to break children in the pursuit of a small trophy.

There are adult sports with children competing like tennis -- which is fundamentally wrong of course -- but figure skating has let down and destroyed the lives of children time and again. The sport itself, the federations, cannot be trusted. Among fans, the bullying of children is normalised. I've never come across anything so toxic.

I would ban the broadcasting of junior events so as not to glorify any achievements (there is no good reason to broadcast these events and put these children under incredible scrutiny), I would have an 18 year old minimum for senior events.
 

TallyT

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Country
Australia
When I was in bible college my music teacher (voice) sent me to a specialist at another near by bible college to develop my voice which was rather odd - totally untrained but could sing really high (but not the poppy way more operatic or classical). The teacher kept on touching me inside my pants . He used the Bible that I was to be obedient. I never thought about it but I stopped taking voice lessons Eventually I was dropped from the singing group/team. I think it goes back to the environment and attitude towards people/students needs to change. Ironically I never sang again and have never regained my voice. I just hope that isn't happening to skaters. I kind of felt helpless; but I trusted the bible college. That this was normal. I worry about skaters if they have the ability to speak up and be heard. Granted maybe it was normal to touch genitals for singing; I never really thought about what had happened because other things happened at the bible college which seemed worse. I already had concerns about other things and was told to shut up, be quiet it didn't happen. So I just kind of lived with it. I don't think we want our skaters "living with it". I understand why Gracie and Ashley wanted to speak up or did. It is like your voice wasn't heard that night or incident. No one protected me. You just don't want people to feel horrible. And maybe you don't want the world or those around you to think you are a bad person. Like I wanted people to know it wasn't my fault, I was praying in the chapel, I didn't know that man, he was angry, mad, drunk. I wanted to say that I fought back but he raped me. It should never have happened period. Not only because it was in the chapel and I was praying but because everyone even me deserves respect. When people are in position of trust they must keep to a higher standard. We need to fairly rid of dangerous people from skating. this me creating an atmosphere where people feel safe and free to s peak up while at the smae time maintaiing the integrity of the system and fairness to the Accused so it does not become a witchung so to speak. I remember my teachers and pastors tell me i t was my fault and I l looked like a slut like I dressed asking for it (It was more trendy than anything) The point is we need safe environments not only to skate but to speak up. Traumatizing the vicitm more is not going to help.
I am so sorry that happened to you, thank you for your courage in trying to help us understand.
 

Mathematician

Pilgrim on a long journey
Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 8, 2023
Until the sport gets serious about protecting children by having only children compete in juniors, and only adults in seniors, then there is not really anything to discuss.

If the sport is not willing to get serious about protecting children, then you can't individuals to take the lead especially when this is a sport that probably attracts the type of people willing to break children in the pursuit of a small trophy.

There are adult sports with children competing like tennis -- which is fundamentally wrong of course -- but figure skating has let down and destroyed the lives of children time and again. The sport itself, the federations, cannot be trusted. Among fans, the bullying of children is normalised. I've never come across anything so toxic.

I would ban the broadcasting of junior events so as not to glorify any achievements (there is no good reason to broadcast these events and put these children under incredible scrutiny), I would have an 18 year old minimum for senior events.
As much as junior skaters like Bazyluk have brought me amazing excitement and joy I am beginning to agree with your perspective.

Recently I have noticed that even with the "success" stories of girls who grew up competing as entertainment for the masses from a tiny age, their psychology has been ruined terribly. Just a basic intuitive feeling I get from any of the stars and their current personalities; Shcherbakova, Valieva, Zagitova, Trusova... all supposedly massively successful and accomplished people but they seem to hold an extremely distrusting, overly-protective disposition like they are always in fear of being used, hurt or treated without any empathy. They do not at all give the impression of teenagers but more like jaded, elderly veterans of corporate stress. They seem to be mentally scarred from the massive fame and responsibility, and resulting anxiety that they experienced as children. Its not natural. I think all spectator sport involving minors should be banned from mass broadcast, but of course the people need their colosseum and that will never happen. Same goes for child artists; singers, dancers, etc...
 
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