- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHfgjszz_Tk#t=3m31s
Or does she rock back toward the flat but not go quite to an inside edge?
Or does she rock back toward the flat but not go quite to an inside edge?
Is this a flutz?
- Thread starter Mathman
- Start date
Looks like ! to me. Not clear outside edge, but not exactly inside edge.
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2010
I paused it at 3:32 and it definitely looked inside to me. I think this would get an edge call by a tech panel with replay.
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2012
yeah its a flutz
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2008
GOOD ENOUGH FOR GOLD.
all cap
all cap
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2009
It's a Flutz, Mathman.
The edge is not clear from this clip...but I took a screenshot of the moment she is leaving the ice. How can she possibly be on the outside edge with such a heavy inward lean? Ankles do not bend significantly from side to side unless they are broken.
http://i41.tinypic.com/2qtcsv8.jpg
I have previously shown the same thing using her 1998 FS Lutz takeoffs.
It's hard to get the exact camera angles to show the vertical axis of skaters doing proper 3Lutzes (off the outside edge), but here are two:
Miki Ando:
http://i42.tinypic.com/sm9kjp.jpg
Oksana Baiul:
http://i39.tinypic.com/mkafc9.jpg
Notice how the other two are much straighter and not leaning towards the inside, which makes sense. Taking off from the outside edge but having to rotate opposed to it is a balancing act.
Of course, if you are still skeptical, surely you wouldn't be so bold as to call Dick Button a liar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHfgjszz_Tk&t=3m44s
The edge is not clear from this clip...but I took a screenshot of the moment she is leaving the ice. How can she possibly be on the outside edge with such a heavy inward lean? Ankles do not bend significantly from side to side unless they are broken.
http://i41.tinypic.com/2qtcsv8.jpg
I have previously shown the same thing using her 1998 FS Lutz takeoffs.
It's hard to get the exact camera angles to show the vertical axis of skaters doing proper 3Lutzes (off the outside edge), but here are two:
Miki Ando:
http://i42.tinypic.com/sm9kjp.jpg
Oksana Baiul:
http://i39.tinypic.com/mkafc9.jpg
Notice how the other two are much straighter and not leaning towards the inside, which makes sense. Taking off from the outside edge but having to rotate opposed to it is a balancing act.
Of course, if you are still skeptical, surely you wouldn't be so bold as to call Dick Button a liar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHfgjszz_Tk&t=3m44s
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2013
That was certainly a flutz. The fact that Dick Button even pointed out that it was the slightest of inside edges means it was a definite flutz. Often when a commentator says "a slight under rotation" or a "bit of a flutz" or a "slight touchdown", they're understating the severity of the mistake, particularly if it's a skater they like.
- Joined
- May 19, 2011
Michelle never had a solid/deep outside edge in her lutz. It was a pushed outside edge (like someone said, very similar to Akiko's) that wasn't 100% to the inside but wasn't a solid outside either, so depending on the jump the call could go either way.
Actually, Michelle did some really nice lutzes late in her career.
2005 Worlds SP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=omqE0fv6VCk#t=259s
The lutz looks good to me--much better than in 1998.
British Eurosports also thought that it was much better there, referring to her history of taking off on an inside edge.
Oddly enough, her flip looks rather off an outside edge. I wonder if working on her lutz altered her flip.
- Joined
- May 19, 2011
^^That is pretty good. 
I think the time she spent with Rafael really helped her jumps later in her career. He was known as a technical coach and judging by Michelle's jumps he did a good job...that's why I don't understand why Mao left him when she did.
Do any of Frank Carroll's students have really deep lutz edges? I know Mirai had that same shallow outside edge lutz take off when she was with him.
I think the time she spent with Rafael really helped her jumps later in her career. He was known as a technical coach and judging by Michelle's jumps he did a good job...that's why I don't understand why Mao left him when she did.Do any of Frank Carroll's students have really deep lutz edges? I know Mirai had that same shallow outside edge lutz take off when she was with him.
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2010
It's interesting you bring that up, because he was a proponent of straight (as opposed on an edge) jump entrances. A lot of European skaters and some Americans (like Bobek) would enter a 3F on a curve, but his students never did. So I imagine it would be very difficult to get the deep edge lutz when you enter the jump in a straight line. However, I think it makes for a more consistent jump seeing how popular that straight entrance is now, and even Irina having more success with the lutz when she changed to her more like Kwan's.
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2012
That was actually a very good outside edge! Yes, that was a clean lutz...
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2005
On a related but not note, Frank Carroll also is a proponent of entering a camel spin in a more open square position instead of winding up and it's about using the skating knee action to create the spin. One of my coaches worked with him for a couple years and has recently changed my camel spin entry to this technique, and low and behold! I have a consistent camel spin that's pretty fast. Frank Carroll also did a camp in the Chicago area over the weekend and there was a ton of great things learned by the local (non-elite) skaters.
Frank Carroll also did a camp in the Chicago area over the weekend and there was a ton of great things learned by the local (non-elite) skaters.
Michelle's jumps overall really improved under Artunian--way at the end of her career. She was really an amazing athlete who no doubt could have adapted to the stricter scrutiny under COP.
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2010
I agree, but I'm glad she skated during the period she did. COP would have sucked all the creativity and innovation out of her programs (COE spiral, spinning in different directions, etc.)
