Is Worlds "unfair" to individual skaters?

[kandidy]

They should bring back the world's qualifying round.

 

[Mathman]

I have to ask if anyone thinks that the end result would have been different if let's say Fumie Suguri, and Bebe Liang would have been able to skate at worlds last year...

Absolutely. If Suguri had got, say 8th in the short program and Liang 18th, that would have knocked Tamar Katz and Idora Hegel out of the running.

If Suguri and Liang repeated those results in the free program, Suguri might have finished 8th, Liang 15th, Katz 25th, and Hegel 26th.

Is this a "fairer" result than what actually happened? (Katz 23rd, Hegel 21st, Suguri, did not skate, Liang, did not skate.)

I would say the answer depends on whether you are Suguri and Liang or Katz and Hegel.

 

[bekalc]

Absolutely. If Suguri had got, say 8th in the short program and Liang 18th, that would have knocked Tamar Katz and Idora Hegel out of the running.

If Suguri and Liang repeated those results in the free program, Suguri might have finished 8th, Liang 15th, Katz 25th, and Hegel 26th.

Is this a "fairer" result than what actually happened? (Katz 23rd, Hegel 21st, Suguri, did not skate, Liang, did not skate.)

I would say the answer depends on whether you are Suguri and Liang or Katz and Hegel.

Well of course Suguri for example would probably placed in the top 10., so the Us would lose a placement, although who knows how placements would have gone then if you change the rules.
But it wouldn't have changed who won the medals, or who won the championship... And I think that's really the most important thing. That's why I mentioned the whole basketball situation.. Because its a good example. A very strong conference and a very weak conference. Perhaps one could say its unfair that such a weak team was able to play in the NBA finals when there were better teams in the other conference that didn't make it that far. But well does it really matter in the end if you lose in the second round or in the final round? You still lost?

The same goes for Suguri and Liang....They lost at their national championships, rather than at Worlds...Does anyone truly think either girl would have won? To me who wins is quite frankly the most important thing..And I don't think there is any real doubt that the current scenario doesn't ensure that the best skater in the world wins if they skate well... The only real concern it seems to me is who gets to play for 10th place...

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

To me who wins is quite frankly the most important thing..And I don't think there is any real doubt that the current scenario doesn't ensure that the best skater in the world wins if they skate well... The only real concern it seems to me is who gets to play for 10th place...

Like most Sports, finding the winner should be what it is all about. I once posted my suggestion that only the best two groups of six be permitted to skate their LPs. Many posters who have big hearts cried that would be unfair to all those skaters (those in 13th - 30th place after the SP) not to be able to skate their LPs. Apparently, it had nothing to do with Sport but just being nice, and of course, the ISU would have nothing to do with eliminations.

So, those skaters who do not fall within the present guidelines will fall by the wayside. It's not fair, if you believe All skaters should have the opportunity. It is fair, if you believe the sport should have 10 placements of any significance.

(BTW. Doesn't Karl Shaefer Memorial kind of help the helpless?)

Joe

 

[hockeyfan228]

To answer the question of the title of the thread, yes, and not just Worlds: Olympics and Europeans, too, and 4C's, if they ever go to their original plan and make the qualifying rules the same as Europeans, i.e., based on the prior year's results.

Then there's GP: Sokolova and Sandhu qualified by ISU rules for GP this year, but the Russian Federation didn't submit Sokolova's name, and, in my opinion, Sandhu's "I'm taking the year off of my own free will" is about as convincing as a CEO on the front page of the Wall Street Journal justifying his resignation "to spend more time with my family."

Then there's Nationals: skaters don't even get out of their backyards unless they're blessed by their National judges, even if their international judges feel differently.

The only way skating will be fair to individual skaters is if they qualify as individuals, like tennis players.

 

[chuckm]

The national federations pay to send their skaters to Worlds. Just because a federation has lots of very good skaters doesn't mean that federation is going to want to spring for the $$ to send 6 skaters to Worlds.

If the ISU wants to have a relationship with individual skaters, then who is going to pay to send them to competitions? I hardly think the ISU is going to do it. And if the individual skaters would be expected to pay their own way, then once again the haves get to go to Worlds, and the have-nots don't.

If Emily Hughes finished off the podium, her family wouldn't have a problem footing the bill, but Alissa Czisny's, Caroline Zhang's, Danielle Kahle's or Mirai Nagasu's certainly could not.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

To answer the question of the title of the thread, yes, and not just Worlds: Olympics and Europeans, too, and 4C's, if they ever go to their original plan and make the qualifying rules the same as Europeans, i.e., based on the prior year's results.

Then there's GP: Sokolova and Sandhu qualified by ISU rules for GP this year, but the Russian Federation didn't submit Sokolova's name, and, in my opinion, Sandhu's "I'm taking the year off of my own free will" is about as convincing as a CEO on the front page of the Wall Street Journal justifying his resignation "to spend more time with my family."

Then there's Nationals: skaters don't even get out of their backyards unless they're blessed by their National judges, even if their international judges feel differently.

The only way skating will be fair to individual skaters is if they qualify as individuals, like tennis players.

And that's the answer I have been waiting to read.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

Here's the count so far on this thread. Four posters have said that the present system is unfair to individuals. Enlight, Ptichka, Joesitz and Hockeyfan.

Five posters have voted for fair (or, at least as fair as it can be). Tonischelle, Attyfan, Becalc, Zephyrskates and Oleada.

 

[enlight78]

Some posters says who finishes in the top three or who wins are the only thing that matters. I would agree if this was a team sport. To the skaters I think it is something completely different. As a track athelete I cared about not only winning but the difference between 13th place and 15th meant a lot to me to. I can not speak for the skaters themselves but I am sure they care about every personal best and if there in the top 10 or top 20 or top 30. It is not just who wins. When I competed everything counted. It just seems to me that the outcome at Worlds is only 30% in the hands of the skater. 30% in the hand of the competition. 40% in the hands of judges and the current process use to qualify for Worlds. I would just like the skaters to have a little more control.

 

[bekalc]

Some posters says who finishes in the top three or who wins are the only thing that matters. I would agree if this was a team sport. To the skaters I think it is something completely different. As a track athelete I cared about not only winning but the difference between 13th place and 15th meant a lot to me to. I can not speak for the skaters themselves but I am sure they care about every personal best and if there in the top 10 or top 20 or top 30. It is not just who wins. When I competed everything counted. It just seems to me that the outcome at Worlds is only 30% in the hands of the skater. 30% in the hand of the competition. 40% in the hands of judges and the current process use to qualify for Worlds. I would just like the skaters to have a little more control.

I see your point, I truly do.. But I have a feeling that even in Track, the outcome isn't really 100% fair. My brother was in track and field (for one year) and he qualified for state. And if I remember correctly he had to qualify through sectionals first. I'm sure there were some kids who qualified through because they were in weak sectionals, where other kids didn't qualify because they missed out do to strong sectionals. This happens all the time, and I would bet that the same scenario happens for the Track and Field world championships too. Because don't people qualify through nationals?.. So this happens, some sectionals are going to be stronger than others. Some nations are going to be stronger than others.. You can't stop that one. What you can insure is that the best skaters in each nation get to compete, and that's what happens, and the thing I keep on harking back to is that Fumie Suguri did control her own fate, but she was outskated at Japanese nationals...

Tennis is a completely different breed than figure skating... As a sport, it is far less expensive, and so tennis players really don't need strong federations supporting them. Figure skating is hugely expensive, and normally the top contenders are also younger, so there is always going to be federations guiding it.

 

[enlight78]

Tennis is a completely different breed than figure skating... As a sport, it is far less expensive, and so tennis players really don't need strong federations supporting them. Figure skating is hugely expensive, and normally the top contenders are also younger, so there is always going to be federations guiding it.

How expensive figure skating is has come up in this topic a lot. Is there any way to lower the cost of the sport so skaters won't be so dependent on the federation? If figure skating was less expensive, would that allow smaller federations to improve faster? Is the current procedure the best way or just the most convient way at the moment? I would like to read more oppinions about such things.

 

[bekalc]

How expensive figure skating is has come up in this topic a lot. Is there any way to lower the cost of the sport so skaters won't be so dependent on the federation? If figure skating was less expensive, would that allow smaller federations to improve faster? Is the current procedure the best way or just the most convient way at the moment? I would like to read more oppinions about such things.

It's just expensive to get a choregrapher, coach, jump specialist not to mention.. Ice time.. Then, there's the equipment. Yu-na Kim nearly quit because of the expense and I'm sure quite a lot of skaters have had to quit because of the expense. Skating at an elite level is not easy...

 

[mskater93]

enlight, how would you propose to make the sport less expensive?

Ice time is based upon the cost of getting a certain number of skaters on the ice and the cost for running the rink for that time (person to open the doors, cost for running compressors, cost for lights, etc). Per hour costs in the US run $100-$200 depending on the age of the rink and the cost of labor.

Coaches are "self employed" and so have to cover their travel to and from the rink, health insurance, liability insurance, etc

Costumes aren't cheap. Have you ever tried to purchase Swarovsky crystals?

Skates aren't just stamped out in a manufacturing plant that makes CD players - there are a lot of manual steps to making a pair of boots - which means high labor costs. Same with blades.

So, I ask, how would you propose to make the sport cheaper?

 

[enlight78]

Well the basic way of decreasing the cost of boots and other basic equipment would be to increase the demand for such products so the companies will feel the need to invest in faster(assembly line type of production). Mass production and sales will evently lower the cost per product needed for the company to may a profit. In order to increase the demand, one would need a huge growth in recreational skating.(It be nice if we could get all the roller bladers and skate boarders into ice skating. Figure skating is kind of an extreme sport)

Individual coaching, choroegraphers, and costumes are going to be expensive no matter what. Maybe skaters who train close together can share a coach and maybe skaters can choroegraph their own programs(no telling how that would turn out). Skaters could start wearing basic uniforms but I believe that would take something away from the program.

Ice Rinks can start using solar power panels which can cut electric cost up to 50%. A lot of states in the U .S. give grants (I heard Germany also give such grants) so the rink wouldn't have to put in the full cost for installing panels.The hardest problem in cutting the cost per person is that only so many people can use a rink for a legitimate practice. Since most skaters are so young they tend to want to skate close to home or need to use the rink within the same time limits.

 

[bekalc]

Well the basic way of decreasing the cost of boots and other basic equipment would be to increase the demand for such products so the companies will feel the need to invest in faster(assembly line type of production). Mass production and sales will evently lower the cost per product needed for the company to may a profit. In order to increase the demand, one would need a huge growth in recreational skating.(It be nice if we could get all the roller bladers and skate boarders into ice skating. Figure skating is kind of an extreme sport)

Individual coaching, choroegraphers, and costumes are going to be expensive no matter what. Maybe skaters who train close together can share a coach and maybe skaters can choroegraph their own programs(no telling how that would turn out). Skaters could start wearing basic uniforms but I believe that would take something away from the program.

Ice Rinks can start using solar power panels which can cut electric cost up to 50%. A lot of states in the U .S. give grants (I heard Germany also give such grants) so the rink wouldn't have to put in the full cost for installing panels.The hardest problem in cutting the cost per person is that only so many people can use a rink for a legitimate practice. Since most skaters are so young they tend to want to skate close to home or need to use the rink within the same time limits.

The boots skaters use are different from what you and I will buy. Skaters have to get specially fitted skates.. Because well they use those skates every single day, and they wear them on their body. A wrong sized fitted skate, can cause a lot of damage and injury. So these handcrafted skates are going to cost quite a bit of money.. This isn't a tennis racket (although I'm sure that tennis players get special rackets) or a basketball. These are equipment that they use on their body.
As for ice rinks, one of the problems is some of the skaters in different parts of the world don't have access to a lot of ice time.

 

[mskater93]

Custom skates are expensive. There is no way to make it an assembly line operation. It's not a TV, DVD, or CD player. I work in manufacturing and I can tell you flat out, there are just some things that will remain an "art" (back in the craftsmanship method of manufacturing) and custom figure skating boots are one of them. I've had skates that didn't fit well and they caused me pain and suffering and a couple trips to a doctor for my feet and shin splints. I've now had three pairs of custom boots which were worth every penny in my opinion ($750+ just for boots). You can't just wear plastic boots or any old boot like a pair of running shoes. It won't work.

Ice time is already shared unless the skater is a pretty big "have". It's just a matter of the cost of running the compressor and the MV lighting. Even if you could reduce it, it's still going to be at least $75-$150/hour to run the rink.

At the elite level, there is NO WAY you would want to share a lesson with your rivals. First of all, you may be working on different things and have different issues. Second of all, do you really want your rival knowing your weaknesses? Third of all, if you are the stronger skater, the other person will get the bulk of the correction. It's just the way it usually happens. This cost is not going to decrease.

 

[Fred Goss]

At Wimbledon and USOpen tennis, I believe the field begins
with 128 players..

..but two quick rounds and 96 are gone and only 32 remain.

An "expanded" Worlds would be like that..entries might be closer
to 80 than the 40-50 now in singles.

A quick qual round of some sort and we're down to 30 again.

I guess skaters placing 48 to 79, who wouldnt have been there
at all without the changed rules, enjoy their experience, but
I really dont know if it adds much to the sport.

 

[mskater93]

The discussion is that some of the people that make the next round now wouldn't under the proposed changes because the top 25 in the World aren't really the top 25....

How would you set up that round with the additional 40 skaters? What would they do in order to advance? How much ice time? How long would the judges have to sit there? If it was SP, you've basically doubled the time for SP already alloted. Are you going to have a jump off? Then you'd REALLY have people that don't like the direction of the sport...

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

At Wimbledon and USOpen tennis, I believe the field begins
with 128 players..

..but two quick rounds and 96 are gone and only 32 remain.

An "expanded" Worlds would be like that..entries might be closer
to 80 than the 40-50 now in singles.

A quick qual round of some sort and we're down to 30 again.

I guess skaters placing 48 to 79, who wouldnt have been there
at all without the changed rules, enjoy their experience, but
I really dont know if it adds much to the sport.

Absolutely, Fred. Let's get everybody into the Act.
A series of PreWorlds Tryouts for the Europeans. Two or Three of them, on different days, of course. The top 15 finishers make half the eligible for worlds.

Similarly, for the 4Season group. and the top 15 make the other half.

There you have it and the best in the world will actually compete again in the main event regardless of nationality yet they all had equal chance. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Joe

 

[enlight78]

Custom skates are expensive. There is no way to make it an assembly line operation. It's not a TV, DVD, or CD player. I work in manufacturing and I can tell you flat out, there are just some things that will remain an "art" (back in the craftsmanship method of manufacturing) and custom figure skating boots are one of them. I've had skates that didn't fit well and they caused me pain and suffering and a couple trips to a doctor for my feet and shin splints. I've now had three pairs of custom boots which were worth every penny in my opinion ($750+ just for boots). You can't just wear plastic boots or any old boot like a pair of running shoes. It won't work. .

I believe it is obvious the figure skating technology is very outdated. Who knows, may be "plastic" boots would work better and actually absorb more of the impact so skaters won't have so many injuries and surgeries. My main point is company when spend more time and money in improving equipment( faster,cheaper, better, safer) if they felt there was a sizable profit in the future. As an undergraduate in engineering have learned their is was an alternate way to get the same or better result.

At the elite level, there is NO WAY you would want to share a lesson with your rivals. First of all, you may be working on different things and have different issues. Second of all, do you really want your rival knowing your weaknesses? It's just the way it usually happens. This cost is not going to decrease.

I don't think it matters if your rivals knows your weakness. I sure they can get a good idea by just watching you skate. This is not boxing or wrestling. Most skaters seem to care little bit more about doing there best than poking at others weakness. Sure my suggestion are probably bad ones but I bet someone have better ideas. I quite sure decreasing cost of skating at an elite leve is no less possible than putting a man on the moon.