ISU Announces 2024-25 Grand Prix locations

[4everchan]

How much effort did the federations put into the bids? Did they even bid at all?

The end result is the same. On top of that, let's not forget how many challengers are in Europe versus North America. It makes it difficult for skaters. It makes it depressing for fans. At this point, as this has been a recurring problem, the ISU needs to intervene and make skating events at all levels available outside Europe even if they need to twist the arm of Skate Canada and USFSA. They have managed to encourage places like Thailand to host events as they are looking at developing the sport in Asia so why not make sure that skating remains relevant in North America ?

 

[Jeanie19]

The end result is the same. On top of that, let's not forget how many challengers are in Europe versus North America. It makes it difficult for skaters. It makes it depressing for fans. At this point, as this has been a recurring problem, the ISU needs to intervene and make skating events at all levels available outside Europe even if they need to twist the arm of Skate Canada and USFSA. They have managed to encourage places like Thailand to host events as they are looking at developing the sport in Asia so why not make sure that skating remains relevant in North America ?

Some European skaters go to 5 or more competitions. The North Americans are lucky if they get 3. It needs to change. And there are none between November to April... NONE.

 

[NanaPat]

Some European skaters go to 5 or more competitions. The North Americans are lucky if they get 3. It needs to change. And there are none between November to April... NONE.

At the very least, they could have Challengers in both the US and Canada. I believe both countries host early-season international competitions, but only one per year is designated a Challenger.

Also, up to 4 (2/year) "other" competitions are counted in World Standings. This should be reduced as long as access to these competitions is so uneven. Perhaps still leave at 2 per year (to help new teams) but cut total down to 2.

 

[lilimum]

For Challengers in the US/CAN the change is high that are not enough nations in the competition. 4 are needed that the points are counted for the world standing. Most European skaters get very little support form their federations e.g for travelling. A challenger only with US and Canadian makes no sense.
And perhaps there is also no interest in Challengers in North America and Japan because there are so many shows with the best skaters during low season and the Grand Prix, I guess this Events are paid off, so why invest money in challengers. In Europe is a complete different situation, figure skating is no business at all so they have to relay on events supported by ISU

 

[SnowWhite]

For Challengers in the US/CAN the change is high that are not enough nations in the competition. 4 are needed that the points are counted for the world standing. Most European skaters get very little support form their federations e.g for travelling. A challenger only with US and Canadian makes no sense.
And perhaps there is also no interest in Challengers in North America and Japan because there are so many shows with the best skaters during low season and the Grand Prix, I guess this Events are paid off, so why invest money in challengers. In Europe is a complete different situation, figure skating is no business at all so they have to relay on events supported by ISU

For four years (2016-2019 CS series) we had both US Classic and Autumn Classic as challengers in NA a couple weeks apart, and I don't recall this being a big problem. Maybe it's different since the pandemic. Certainly it wouldn't be a problem for dance, what with all the IAM teams. You could have just one of the events with pairs. Not sure about singles, but I'm not convinced it would be a huge problem.

 

[4everchan]

Most European skaters get very little support form their federations e.g for travelling.

You know, the reason why Canadians don't get assignments is probably money as well... So why is it okay to for Europeans to have many options that are not cost prohibitive, and not okay for Canadians to benefit from the same? @SnowWhite mentions dance, but let's not forget that some single skaters also train (some part time, some full time) in North America. Every single time I have been to ACI, there were Japanese skaters and Japanese fans. That's already 3 countries with USA and Canada. I am happy to pay for Edrian's Celestino's subway ticket to ACI if we need to have a 4th country represented. In my opinion, that argument is fairly week.

 

[lilimum]

This was not an argument for or against challengers in US/CAN was just an idea why there are not more chanllengers. And when I have a more deaper look onto the event schedule I don*t understand why there are complaints. There is an GP in the US, a GP and a Challenger in Canada. What else do you want ? The target of ISU is to promote figure skating globally, so it is ok that they give each ISU events to a different country, so Mexico yes why not, Australia, great and why is there no challenger event in South Korea ? they are so strong.

 

[4everchan]

This was not an argument for or against challengers in US/CAN was just an idea why there are not more chanllengers. And when I have a more deaper look onto the event schedule I don*t understand why there are complaints. There is an GP in the US, a GP and a Challenger in Canada. What else do you want ? The target of ISU is to promote figure skating globally, so it is ok that they give each ISU events to a different country, so Mexico yes why not, Australia, great and why is there no challenger event in South Korea ? they are so strong.

The GPs are not "free entry" events for anyone who wants to compete in them. How many Canadians were at SKAM this weekend?
1) pairs (and they were seeded) 1) dance team 1) men... out of 42 entries, 3 were Canadians. Of course, blame it on the athletes themselves for not scoring well enough at... let's see... Challengers in Europe they cannot attend so they are too low on the season's best scores.
I agree that the ISU should host events in Mexico, Autralia and South Korea..... so let's remove even more event from Europe and spread them all over the planet

 

[icewhite]

I don't know the exact reasons why an event is happening here and not there, but there is a tendency among US and Canadians to see Europe as one - which it just isn't. These are all different countries.

 

[4everchan]

I don't know the exact reasons why an event is happening here and not there, but there is a tendency among US and Canadians to see Europe as one - which it just isn't. These are all different countries.

Of course there are different countries. Please do not generalize ! Many North Americans are well-traveled and aware that Finlandia has nothing to do with Nebelhorn.

However, in terms of competition opportunities for figure skaters, this Canadian has traveled a few times to Europe and knows how easier and much cheaper it is to hop on a plane, even a train, and get from a country to another. It was cheaper for me to travel in 4 different European countries than fly domestic in Canada The skaters training in Europe can enter challengers for much cheaper, not face much jet lag if any, and manage to do competitions back to back which can be very good in a training schedule.

It's especially difficult on middle of the pack skaters, those perhaps not receiving National team funding, those not being invited to GP. It's a vicious circle as not being able to attend many events compromises those skaters chances of being more consistent.

This year, the Selevko bros have managed much better than in the past... They compete A LOT. If they were Canadian, they would probably have one small event per year and would not have had a chance to develop competition nerves.

It is especially difficult for North Americans who have a lot of internal competition. Only the very top skaters will get assignments and many with similar scores than some European skaters who do have more opportunities, will never get out to challengers.

I am done with my rant until next year's locations release

 

[lilimum]

3 spots out of 42, that is more than most of the 101 ISU member federations get. Plus the chance to give spots of Skate Canada to Canadian skaters and give them the opportunity to get more world standing points than they could get at a Challenger. And at non-challenger they can earn nearly the same amount of point as at challenger the difference are only 50 point for the first plance (compared to 100 point difference between GP and Challenger). But you are right, I think ISU should spread the events more. It is a shame that one Challenger was cancelled and no replacement have been found (or even not tried to find).

 

[icewhite]

Of course there are different countries. Please do not generalize ! Many North Americans are well-traveled and aware that Finlandia has nothing to do with Nebelhorn.

However, in terms of competition opportunities for figure skaters, this Canadian has traveled a few times to Europe and knows how easier and much cheaper it is to hop on a plane, even a train, and get from a country to another. It was cheaper for me to travel in 4 different European countries than fly domestic in Canada The skaters training in Europe can enter challengers for much cheaper, not face much jet lag if any, and manage to do competitions back to back which can be very good in a training schedule.

It's especially difficult on middle of the pack skaters, those perhaps not receiving National team funding, those not being invited to GP. It's a vicious circle as not being able to attend many events compromises those skaters chances of being more consistent.

This year, the Selevko bros have managed much better than in the past... They compete A LOT. If they were Canadian, they would probably have one small event per year and would not have had a chance to develop competition nerves.

It is especially difficult for North Americans who have a lot of internal competition. Only the very top skaters will get assignments and many with similar scores that some European skaters who do have more opportunities, will never get out to challengers.

I am done with my rant until next year's locations release

I didn't want to say you are all ignorant and uneducated and don't know how to tell the countries apart. Just that it looks different from an overseas perspective, especially when you are used to travelling longer distances in your own country. Americans who visit Europe often make one trip to visit Rome, Paris and Amsterdam for instance because they are "so close", while I would likely not connect these cities and will instead go to Spain and visit a certain area there... there was also always a kind of border in my head when I lived close to the borders... yes, geographically it is super close, but I would still not go to a place on the other side nearly as often as to an area which is further apart but in my own country... And if a fed of one country hosts an event, let's say Germany, Chechia will not think "oh, there's already one in Germany just some km away", they will simply see that they don't have one yet - just an example, you could switch these countries with almost all others. ( I think many feds are not even keen on hosting certain events.)

 

[Jeanie19]

You know, the reason why Canadians don't get assignments is probably money as well... So why is it okay to for Europeans to have many options that are not cost prohibitive, and not okay for Canadians to benefit from the same? @SnowWhite mentions dance, but let's not forget that some single skaters also train (some part time, some full time) in North America. Every single time I have been to ACI, there were Japanese skaters and Japanese fans. That's already 3 countries with USA and Canada. I am happy to pay for Edrian's Celestino's subway ticket to ACI if we need to have a 4th country represented. In my opinion, that argument is fairly week.

Lots of skaters train part time in Canada and USA. Kevin, Olga, Nikolaj, Boyang, etc.

 

[4everchan]

3 spots out of 42, that is more than most of the 101 ISU member federations get. Plus the chance to give spots of Skate Canada to Canadian skaters and give them the opportunity to get more world standing points than they could get at a Challenger. And at non-challenger they can earn nearly the same amount of point as at challenger the difference are only 50 point for the first plance (compared to 100 point difference between GP and Challenger). But you are right, I think ISU should spread the events more. It is a shame that one Challenger was cancelled and no replacement have been found (or even not tried to find).

You know, considering the number of competitive skaters in Canada, 3 spots out of 42 may look like it is a lot, but it is not compared to many of these 101 ISU members... How many dance teams does Canada have that are competitive and will never get steady opportunities? There are a bunch of Canadians representing other countries for a bunch of reasons but of course, it makes sense that getting better opportunities is part of the deal. Glad we agree for better distribution of events

 

[4everchan]

I didn't want to say you are all ignorant and uneducated and don't know how to tell the countries apart. Just that it looks different from an overseas perspective, especially when you are used to travelling longer distances in your own country. Americans who visit Europe often make one trip to visit Rome, Paris and Amsterdam for instance because they are "so close", while I would likely not connect these cities and will instead go to Spain and visit a certain area there... there was also always a kind of border in my head when I lived close to the borders... yes, geographically it is super close, but I would still not go to a place on the other side nearly as often as to an area which is further apart but in my own country... And if a fed of one country hosts an event, let's say Germany, Chechia will not think "oh, there's already one in Germany just some km away", they will simply see that they don't have one yet - just an example, you could switch these countries with almost all others. ( I think many feds are not even keen on hosting certain events.)

Thanks for the precision. I think there is a difference for athletes. They are not going to visit anything but the ice rink and the physio. They barely have time to do any tourism. They go to where the fed assigns them and unfortunately, because it's cost prohibitive, many don't go or only do one event... as opposed to European based athletes who have more options.

Now, what you are raising is another issue. I remember when there was a fancier German event that was part of the "GP" circuit. Gone. Could the ISU add a couple GP events in Europe and make the series longer? I would like that. Could they then remove a couple Challengers in Europe and put them in North America? I would like that.
Let's not forget the amount of skaters who do compete at US and Canadian Nationals/Sectionals. Look at Proft and Nadeau, they see better opportunity in show skating than competing at this point. They were contenders to make HOME worlds or at least 4CC team BUT, they have NEVER ever been sent to a competition out of the country. Skaters of that level should have done a couple of challengers other than the one at the rink closest to their training base. This is just one example of many. It's sad. Skaters end up representing other nations or simply quitting. I am not sure that's good for the sport if it gets so impossible for athletes to compete that they end their career short.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Sorry, but I simply cannot accept the North American narrative that it is cheap for European skaters to travel around Europe doing all the competitions that they can.

Figure skating is an expensive sport to start with. Paying for coaching, ice time, specialist costumes, possibly travelling to the rink. That is a lot for a family to cover, never mind the costs involved with travelling to events to compete in.

You may see adverts for flights that cost practically nothing, but the prices advertised do not include all the extra charges that airlines charge nowadays for things that are pretty much essential, such as hold luggage (you can't take sharp items like skates in cabin baggage). If you are travelling by road, petrol / diesel is expensive, and even if it was possible to do long journeys in electric cars, electricity isn't cheap at the moment either. And train fares are expensive too (if you can even get a train, with all the strikes that are going on).

Then when you get there, there is accomodation; meals; transport if the accomodation is not close to the venue, etc. on top of that.

If a skater and their family is expected to cover everything themselves, that will greatly limit the number of competitions that they will be able to go to. Unless the skater is from a very rich family, they simply cannot afford to go to lots of competitions if they have to pay for it themselves.

Most Feds only have limited funds available to them, so they have to use it in the most economic way. If they are covering competition costs, you will see one of two things happening. Either a lot of skaters will get one or two events (and probably the same events, to cut the costs). Or one or two skaters that are expected to get good results will get more events, but the other skaters will do without.

If there is direct state funding for covering the costs of going to competitions, it can open up a whole can of worms.

By chance I read a story this morning complaining about the travel costs for the Cypriot delegation that went to the 2023 Games Of The Small States Of Europe, which was held in Malta at the end of May / start of June:

https://cyprus-mail.com/2023/10/26/a-waste-of-public-money-nearly-300-went-to-sports-event/

OK, I know that a multi-sport event is a very different animal to the figure skating events that we are talking about. But, although the total number of people having to travel is a lot lower, it is still the case that each athlete will have two or three people accompanying them.

When you take into consideration the number of athletes, the total number that went actually looks low to me. It looks like they only had the bare minimum support team accompanying the athletes. But, because so much milking the system (and plain corruption) goes on in Cyprus, it is being seen as lots of hangers on going on a jolly.

I wish the story gave a break down on who the non-athletes were. All the story really tells us is that there were "a large number of media representatives". How many do they consider to be a "large number"? For this, I consider one to be a large number! No media representatives should be getting their costs covered by the state! If anybody is covering their costs, it should be their publication.

But support staff for the athletes is essential. And they should be included in the delegation and having their costs covered.

This story really highlights the amount of scrutiny that there is when state funding is involved. And how the way it is perceived (whether correctly or not) can have a detrimental influence on the level of future grants.

For the record, Cyprus finished 2nd with 87 medals. Host country Malta finished 1st with 97 medals.

Anyway, getting back to the point I am making, the cost of competing is not an easy thing to solve. The only way I can see the situation improving is if we get big name sponsors involved. And that isn't going to happen, because figure skating is a minority sport pretty much everywhere.

The only places where figure skating is a mainstream sport are Russia and Japan. And they do get big name sponsors. And as a result, before Russia got banned, we did see athletes from both of these countries at pretty much every event. So the model can and does work.

To attract big name sponsors to the sport, figure skating needs to become popular around the world. And to do that, it needs to be easier to watch, be it from home or in person.

• It needs to be shown on linear TV as well as online.
• Online streaming needs to be free and easy to find.
• Coverage needs to be available on demand indefinitely afterwards.
• The Junior GP and Senior GP Series need to have 8 events each, and follow the same general distribution around the world:
  • 4 events in the Europe / Middle East / Africa region
  • 2 events in the Americas
  • 2 events in the Asia / Pacific region
• The Challenger Series should either drop down to 8 events and follow the same distribution as proposed for the GP's. Or it should stay at 10 events with half in the Europe / Middle East / Africa region; and the other half alternating between having 2 events in the Americas and 3 in the Asia / Pacific region, and vice versa.

A better distribution of ranking events should greatly help increase interest around the world, and also provide more competitions that are closer for skaters and fans who are based outside of Europe. Although there wouldn't be quite as many ranking events in Europe under these proposals, there would still be a good number. And don't forget, there would still be a lot of "normal" Senior B's in Europe that skaters and fans could go to instead.

If the fanbase around the globe grows, it could make big name sponsors think that the sport is worth getting involved with. And in turn their money could go a great way towards making it more affordable for skaters to compete in more events.

But, the ISU won't do any of these things. They are happy to just carry on as things are, and let the number of fans continue to dwindle as a result.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[lariko]

Also, a lot of countries in Europe have visa requirements, so skaters with fringe passports would have troubles making some tournaments... it's weirder that challengers almost don't cover Asia...

 

[4everchan]

Sorry, but I simply cannot accept the North American narrative that it is cheap for European skaters to travel around Europe doing all the competitions that they can.

Figure skating is an expensive sport to start with. Paying for coaching, ice time, specialist costumes, possibly travelling to the rink. That is a lot for a family to cover, never mind the costs involved with travelling to events to compete in.

Figure skating is expensive everywhere so that's not relevant. We are talking only about the cost of travel here.
It is not some obscure science that flying within Europe is cheaper than overseas. And on top of that, skaters need to travel with some entourage. So it makes traveling expenses not only higher for the skater but exponentially higher as the entourage is also brought in.
On top of that, jet lag is an issue. A skater coming from far away may need to arrive a day earlier to recuperate. So that adds in another hotel night. ETC.

You may see adverts for flights that cost practically nothing, but the prices advertised do not include all the extra charges that airlines charge nowadays for things that are pretty much essential, such as hold luggage (you can't take sharp items like skates in cabin baggage). If you are travelling by road, petrol / diesel is expensive, and even if it was possible to do long journeys in electric cars, electricity isn't cheap at the moment either. And train fares are expensive too (if you can even get a train, with all the strikes that are going on).

There are extra charges on mainstream overseas flight. At sure, a train may not be cheap...but I have never have been able to take a train from Montreal to Paris.

Then when you get there, there is accomodation; meals; transport if the accomodation is not close to the venue, etc. on top of that.

If a skater and their family is expected to cover everything themselves, that will greatly limit the number of competitions that they will be able to go to. Unless the skater is from a very rich family, they simply cannot afford to go to lots of competitions if they have to pay for it themselves.

As mentioned above, jet lag and time difference can mean even longer stays for skaters from overseas... Other than that, sure, the hotel is the same price for everyone... Not sure why that is an argument? Nobody is saying it's cheap to compete for Europeans. What is being said is that it is much more convenient for them as they have multiple events relatively nearby. The proof is in the pudding or whatever the expression is... who are the skaters competing in many challengers and senior Bs? easy to find out... most of the times, they are European.

Most Feds only have limited funds available to them, so they have to use it in the most economic way. If they are covering competition costs, you will see one of two things happening. Either a lot of skaters will get one or two events (and probably the same events, to cut the costs). Or one or two skaters that are expected to get good results will get more events, but the other skaters will do without.

Exactly why it's even more difficult to accept for Canadian fans and skaters. The funds are limited, the cost is much higher so it means way less events. Some skaters get absolutely 0 outings.

 

[NanaPat]

I wish the story gave a break down on who the non-athletes were. All the story really tells us is that there were "a large number of media representatives".

There was a breakdown later in the story. Note that the total non-athletes was around 100, athletes 187.

In KOE’s response, submitted to the committee by the education ministry at the MPs’ request, it emerged that those who travelled to Malta with all expenses paid were KOE’s legal advisor and his wife, 19 media representatives, seven of whom had their food and board covered by CyBC, representatives of the sponsors Opap and Deloitte, as well as a large number of coaches and assistants.

It actually doesn't seem like such a large number of coaches and assistants, unless there were a large teams of athletes involved.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

There was a breakdown later in the story. Note that the total non-athletes was around 100, athletes 187.


It actually doesn't seem like such a large number of coaches and assistants, unless there were a large teams of athletes involved.

Oops. Missed that paragraph.

My goodness! The only ones mentioned that needed to be there are the coaches and assistants. But, the writer seems to be trying to make out that they shouldn't be there by describing them as a "large number". When you consider that there were 187 athletes, that isn't a large number. It's less than 1 memebr of support staff between two athletes.

I don't know the breakdown of the athletes in the delegation but, according to Wikipedia, Cyprus was on the podium in all four basketball tournaments. And counting the players listed, that comes up to 32. But, the other team events only had small numbers of people in teams (e.g. 3 or 4), and they were in sports where the athletes would also have been competing individually. So it does still seem like too small a number of coaching staff.

CaroLiza_fan