ISU Championship Allotments - Ladies

[Kara]

Yeah the Canadian ladies last year was the biggest issue for myself too. I was thinking maybe having a higher TES min required for the 4th skater?

I personally think the small federations in terms of spots are in an okay spot, but they just have a harder time getting more because of how unfair the judging is sometimes and won't be solved by giving spots based off scores. Is there any case of an amazing high scoring smaller fed skater not being able to go to Worlds because of a lack of spots because I can't think of any at the top of my head right now.

For getting rid of the fed pull, I agree in some sense, but if the feds don't have control over who gets to go to their events, won't that make sponsors in their country unhappy? Figure skating I feel just doesn't have enough international events to do something like that.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

For getting rid of the fed pull, I agree in some sense, but if the feds don't have control over who gets to go to their events, won't that make sponsors in their country unhappy? Figure skating I feel just doesn't have enough international events to do something like that.

Maybe in some ways but I’m not suggesting removing host picks and maybe even would welcome a system where they could earn another host pick or two. The thing is...the skaters who those host picks face could be based on standings and really make things interesting. The federation can bring their hometown favorites but can’t contril who they face. That should actually increase the quality of some events in theory but it would require the federations to sell the quality of the skating as opposed to a sense of national pride to the sponsors. Golf sort of rebranded at one point and adopted the slogan “these guys are good” to promote an image that there are more golfers than just Tiger Woods out there but while the ratings were higher than average. It was very successful.

I’m not sure what’s worse though...the host picking the skaters or the judges. Both just seem inherently bad ideas in the name of fair competition.

 

[Ice Dance]

All right.

I think if three or more different athletes from a specific discipline qualify for the current GPF or medal at the current Europeans, 4CCs, or the previous Worlds. Or are going to be age-eligible the following season and medal at the previous Junior Worlds, then a country should have three spots for Worlds the following season.

No more than three spots. But three spots.

For example, Honda's silver + Miyahara & Higuchi qualifying for this season's GPF would have been enough to guarantee the three spots at Worlds. (4CC results would have done so as well, but would not have been necessary). Likewise, two Chinese pairs qualifying for the 2016-17 GPF + Sui & Han winning 4CCs would have been enough to earn China three pairs spots.

The three athletes selected to compete at Worlds would still be determined by Nationals results.

I would likewise add a provision that if two or more athletes did the same and/or were going to be age-eligible and qualified for the JGPF the previous season, then the country should have two spots for Worlds the following season.

I do not know how many athletes this would add to the mix but my guess is that even maintaining the current qualification formula for all other athletes, the additional numbers would be minimal and only increase the number of competitors in the SP/SD portion at Worlds. FD/LP numbers would remain the same.

This season it would have resulted in an additional Japanese lady, Russian dance team, and Russian man. Those I know off the top of my head. It still wouldn't give Korea two ladies spots for next season, but it would at least give them a chance.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

What exactly is the reasoning behind earning spots at Worlds in the prior season? Seems way more climactic and meaningful to earn them during the current season as it unfolds. It could really change the dynamic and importance of some events and motivate some skaters.

I’m honestly curious as to the reasoning behind it and why we should think it’s s good system.

 

[Ice Dance]

What exactly is the reasoning behind earning spots at Worlds in the prior season?

Worlds is a far deeper and more intense competition than any other event held all year. If you can hold up under Worlds pressure & in that field, it means a ton, IMO. More than once I have seen athletes completely blow a program and still medal at a GP, GPF, or even 4CCs/Europeans.

That almost never happens at Worlds. There is much, much farther to fall. And everyone is at their best with their programs & material. Early in the season, athletes who repeat old material and/or do not upgrade programs often benefit with more medals. By the end of the season, however, you see the payoff for taking risk and developing both the technical & artistic aspects of the sport throughout the season.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Worlds is a far deeper and more intense competition than any other event held all year. If you can hold up under Worlds pressure & in that field, it means a ton, IMO. More than once I have seen athletes completely blow a program and still medal at a GP, GPF, or even 4CCs/Europeans.

That almost never happens at Worlds. There is much, much farther to fall. And everyone is at their best with their programs & material. Early in the season, athletes who repeat old material and/or do not upgrade programs often benefit with more medals. By the end of the season, however, you see the payoff for taking risk and developing both the technical & artistic aspects of the sport throughout the season.

But you always hear lots of skaters saying they don’t want to peak early or they are going to pace themselves for Worlds. If they can cruise to that competition because they know they are going to spot anyway.....doesn’t that kind of deflate the importance of the other events?

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[Ice Dance]

But you always hear lots of skaters saying they don’t want to peak early or they are going to pace themselves for Worlds. If they can cruise to that competition because they know they are going to spot anyway.....doesn’t that kind of deflate the importance of the other events?

Other events are less important. Athletes say what they have to say. The truth is that it takes time to develop a new program and put it out there enough times that it reaches its full potential. That time will be needed no matter how important you make the first event of the season.

 

[Spirals for Miles]

Worlds is a far deeper and more intense competition than any other event held all year. If you can hold up under Worlds pressure & in that field, it means a ton, IMO. More than once I have seen athletes completely blow a program and still medal at a GP, GPF, or even 4CCs/Europeans.

That almost never happens at Worlds. There is much, much farther to fall. And everyone is at their best with their programs & material. Early in the season, athletes who repeat old material and/or do not upgrade programs often benefit with more medals. By the end of the season, however, you see the payoff for taking risk and developing both the technical & artistic aspects of the sport throughout the season.

But it’s not fair to incoming seniors or injured skaters who were good enough to gain more spots but didn’t have a chance.

 

[Ice Dance]

But it’s not fair to incoming seniors or injured skaters who were good enough to gain more spots but didn’t have a chance.

Hence, my explanation in the post on the previous page.

Using Worlds also helps injured skaters. Hanyu was injured most of this season. Worlds results can help ensure that an athlete has a place available even if they are out most of the current season. Sui was in a similar situation in 2017.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Using Worlds also helps injured skaters. Hanyu was injured most of this season. Worlds results can help ensure that an athlete has a place available even if they are out most of the current season. Sui was in a similar situation in 2017.

Well..as long as the federations all have one spot to give out...Japan could certainly and would certainly give it to Yuzuru. Otherwise the internet might break!

I personally see nothing wrong with each federation starting with one spot and earning the rest. Even if we cap it at three spots for whatever reason.

 

[Ice Dance]

Well..as long as the federations all have one spot to give out...Japan could certainly and would certainly give it to Yuzuru. Otherwise the internet might break!

Which wouldn't have done Shoma any good if qualifying more than one spot for Worlds was all based on this season's GPF, Europeans, & 4CCs. Don't discount the significance of Worlds. There are holes in any system. It is wiser, IMO, to maintain a system that works and tweak it to fix the leaks. Starting all over from scratch is an excellent way to just create a bunch of new holes one has not anticipated.

 

[Miller]

Adding any skaters is too much since competition times are already too long, the ISU is trying to reduce competitions, not have longer competitions...adding just another flight could very well lengthen the competition by a good hour...who wants to sit through 7 hour competitions??? as if 5 or 6 wasn't enough already...

Funny thing is it sounds like they might just be doing that for pairs. According to the Lakernik interview thread the other day they're considering expanding pairs to the top 20 at Worlds rather than the top 16 in the Free Skate. Hence it's going to take an extra 50 minutes, taking account of the extra ice re-surface and so on, having just saved 8 minutes by knocking off 30 seconds per program. However it does show they're listening/aware of what's going on (pairs depth has increased dramatically this last year or so), so perhaps there is hope for Ladies after all.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Which wouldn't have done Shoma any good if qualifying more than one spot for Worlds was all based on this season's GPF, Europeans, & 4CCs. Don't discount the significance of Worlds. There are holes in any system. It is wiser, IMO, to maintain a system that works and tweak it to fix the leaks. Starting all over from scratch is an excellent way to just create a bunch of new holes one has not anticipated.

These are all reasonable points but I think there is also something to be said for increasing the importance of each event. Honestly it should increase the importance of the WC too. Besides...I think just getting to the GPF should be worth a WC berth but hey...that’s just me.

 

[Miller]

What exactly is the reasoning behind earning spots at Worlds in the prior season? Seems way more climactic and meaningful to earn them during the current season as it unfolds. It could really change the dynamic and importance of some events and motivate some skaters.

I’m honestly curious as to the reasoning behind it and why we should think it’s s good system.

Is it something to do with old 6.0 system, plus the relative lack of importance of GP events in the past? Now you could do it on seasons bests and the like, but back then all you'd have under 6.0 were the placements, there'd be no scores you could use. Hence just use the previous years World Championships, with nothing else really of importance enough to include - you could also also results of Euros and 4CC (though that too is relatively new) I guess, but it was probably simpler just to keep it all in one place.

 

[kenboy123]

Funny thing is it sounds like they might just be doing that for pairs. According to the Lakernik interview thread the other day they're considering expanding pairs to the top 20 at Worlds rather than the top 16 in the Free Skate. Hence it's going to take an extra 50 minutes, taking account of the extra ice re-surface and so on, having just saved 8 minutes by knocking off 30 seconds per program. However it does show they're listening/aware of what's going on (pairs depth has increased dramatically this last year or so), so perhaps there is hope for Ladies after all.

Well..there are less pairs, so...pairs don't exactly have 6 hour competitions...

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

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[Mathman]

I think it’s time to stop letting the hosts (of the Grand Prix events) pick who they invite.

Oh, I don't know. These are invitational events which, except for Russia and China, pre-date the ISU Grand Prix. They are organized by local organizing committees with some assistance from the national federation and are individually responsible for lining up advertising, publicity and sponsorship. Why should they let the ISU horn in unwanted and unneeded?

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Oh, I don't know. These are invitational events which, except for Russia and China, pre-date the ISU Grand Prix. They are organized by local organizing committees with some assistance from the national federation and are individually responsible for lining up advertising, publicity and sponsorship. Why should they let the ISU horn in unwanted and unneeded?

But the point of the Grand Prix is to make it to the Grand Prix Final and award the “grand prize” isn’t it. Creating a fair circuit that doesn’t force skaters to face stacked events seems ideal.

 

[4everchan]

But the point of the Grand Prix is to make it to the Grand Prix Final and award the “grand prize” isn’t it. Creating a fair circuit that doesn’t force skaters to face stacked events seems ideal.

yeah but without local talent, do you really think Skate America would sell out or that NBC would broadcast any of it? You need the local talent.. that is all... and usually, the local talent is not that bad anyways... perhaps the 3rd pick is an up and growing skater... so i don't think it makes a difference... and it's the same in GP.. you guys forget that there is a limit of 3 per country... so it's not like Skate America would have 5 russians

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

yeah but without local talent, do you really think Skate America would sell out or that NBC would broadcast any of it? You need the local talent.. that is all... and usually, the local talent is not that bad anyways... perhaps the 3rd pick is an up and growing skater... so i don't think it makes a difference... and it's the same in GP.. you guys forget that there is a limit of 3 per country... so it's not like Skate America would have 5 russians

I’m far more concerned about them selecting the judges but while I agree with you I think you may have missed my point a little. I really don’t care about them giving spots to local skaters and earlier I suggested making those spots even as rewards based on GP and WC results but let’s set that all aside for a moment. Picking the skaters those local talents face and the judges who judge them can be something a federation can take advantage of and really shape the landscape of the GP and subsequent GPF. That’s why I want most spots and all judges to be selected thru a system that prevents intentionally stacking an event. A performance based system. Does that make more sense?

This is sort of the thinking behind creating a spot for the highest ranking skater from a non GP hosting nation to the WC who didn’t qualify via their national championship. They are at a disadvantage and it would be nice to see skaters battling it out to earn that spot. It could motivate and create some cool substories aside from the podium battle.

I’m certainly not aiming to remove local talent though.