ISU Championship Allotments - Ladies

[moriel]

General comment (unrelated to Mathman): This thread already has had so many questionable (IMO) ideas that I will feel free to add one of my own -- carrying the notions of others to their logical conclusion.

If new rules were in place such that Nathan were to go to Worlds as GPF champion (and not as a representative of the U.S. chosen by USFS for a slot earned by the U.S.), then he should have no access to any USFS/USOC resources/support during the time btwn GPF and the conclusion of Worlds.
No funding of any kind. No travel expenses or logistical support. No access to the OTC or any of its personnel (such as his ubiquitous trainer). Etc., etc.
For all intents and purposes, he would not be a member of Team USA when at Worlds. Not announced/introduced as representing Team USA. Not allowed to wear the Team USA jacket. If he were to win, the U.S. flag would not be raised. The U.S. national anthem would not be played.

These rules would apply to any GPF champions (whether Evgenia or Kaetlyn or Yuzuru, etc.) and their respective federations.



I am dubious that such rules would be good for the sport.

(I am not trying to pick on Nathan, whom I like.)

I think such rule would actually make federations and skaters not support such rule.
While just forcing some selection is bearable for feds, and good for skaters (more chances to qualify if anything), removing national funding is not doable (for example, take a look at how Alina lives. Are you sure a skater like her can afford traveling to worlds on her own, specially on her first senior year?), and feds will not want their best skaters not to be part of their country team.

 

[Koatterce]

Yep. Or just forcefully fill one spot.
Nathan qualified, so Nathan goes, and the federation can do whatever they want with the other two spots (as they currently do), but Nathan's participation does not depend on nationals anymore.

I mean that works, but this would only help a select few - skaters who skate well throughout the season but skate poorly or bomb at nationals. But for most feds, if a skater was that good during the season, there's a pretty good chance they would have been sent anyways. Like was there much chance that Nathan wouldn't be sent? Tessa and Scott? Gabby and Guillaume? Aliona and Bruno? Wenjing and Cong? Yuzuru? Javi? Carolina? It would help a few skaters but overall does not cause much change.

Plus for many feds, nationals is not the only deciding factor either, so WC participation did not solely depend on nationals in the first place.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Yep. Or just forcefully fill one spot.
Nathan qualified, so Nathan goes, and the federation can do whatever they want with the other two spots (as they currently do), but Nathan's participation does not depend on nationals anymore.

Thank you for understanding.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

.

If new rules were in place such that Nathan were to go to Worlds as GPF champion (and not as a representative of the U.S. chosen by USFS for a slot earned by the U.S.), then he should have no access to any USFS/USOC resources/support during the time btwn GPF and the conclusion of Worlds.
No funding of any kind. No travel expenses or logistical support. No access to the OTC or any of its personnel (such as his ubiquitous trainer). Etc., etc.
For all intents and purposes, he would not be a member of Team USA when at Worlds. Not announced/introduced as representing Team USA. Not allowed to wear the Team USA jacket. If he were to win, the U.S. flag would not be raised. The U.S. national anthem would not be played.

These rules would apply to any GPF champions (whether Evgenia or Kaetlyn or Yuzuru, etc.) and their respective federations.

Honestly not a bad idea as long as the ISU will cover the costs. I’d imagine a $1 raise in ticket sales would cover Nathan and would vastly improve the overall competition. Seems a bit unnecessary because it’s not as if the federation won’t benefit from a Nathan win via attention and increased interest at home but we can ignore all that. Heck...on second thought I bet NBC would even flip the bill to get him there. His stock is through the roof right now! . This might actually be a good transition that can help encourage the ISU to find and utilize some more much needed sponsors. It may take time to come into fruition but this type of thinking really could benefit the athletes when all is said and done and reduce the dependency on federations :agree:

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

.

Edit: Oh, wait. I see the problem. If Nathan does not go to worlds representing the United States, then his placement can't count toward the next year's quota of slots. The U.S. drops to two for the next year unless two skaters in the non-Nathan category step up.

(Meanwhile, the Nathan category qualifies for three non-denominational spots by getting first and being the only skater from his non-county. The next year the top three from the Grand Prix get to go. :yes: )

I don’t think you’d have to award the ISU any spots but could instead not factor an “ISU” skater’s results into giving out spots. The federation would be giving up a lot making a decision to let him go the way of an ISU birth. That’s why I actually like the idea.

To be clear I do not expect a change like this. I’m just entertaining this lively discussion and searching for solutions that give more options to a multiple level of skaters.

 

[Koatterce]

Honestly not a bad idea as long as the ISU will cover the costs. I’d imagine a $1 raise in ticket sales would cover Nathan and would vastly improve the overall competition. Seems a bit unnecessary because it’s not as if the federation won’t benefit from a Nathan win via attention and increased interest at home but we can ignore all that. Heck...on second thought I bet NBC would even flip the bill to get him there. His stock is through the roof right now! . This might actually be a good transition that can help encourage the ISU to find and utilize some more much needed sponsors. It may take time to come into fruition but this type of thinking really could benefit the athletes when all is said and done and reduce the dependency on federations :agree:

I mean, yeah, an ISU Nathan win would draw some attention to the USA. But you know what would draw even more attention to the USA? If he was actually representing the USA. Even if he didn't win, he'd get plenty of media coverage. ISU Nathan winning might draw some attention to the fed, but definitely not as much as if he was USA Nathan. But regardless of where he places, he's just going to get as much (or a little more) media coverage as non-USA athletes that place wherever he placed. The job of American media is to cover the athletes that are representing America, not the ones that have American citizenship/ live in America/ etc. Plenty of athletes representing other nations live/train in the USA, and barely spend time in whatever country they're representing (this is the case for all countries). If Nathan is not representing America, he'd be treated the same (maybe slightly better) as if he was representing Canada, France, Korea, China, or any other nation.

In general, removing feds would cause huge funding issues for developing athletes (elite/top athletes can find sponsors or whatever). Feds want to succeed, and they don't really care who succeeds, as long as someone does. But then there's no point in funding developing athletes either since once they get good enough, they won't be representing the fed. So there's zero incentive for feds to fund. But then the developing athletes will have to self fund everything which isn't always feasible.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

In general, removing feds would cause huge funding issues for developing athletes (elite/top athletes can find sponsors or whatever). Feds want to succeed, and they don't really care who succeeds, as long as someone does. But then there's no point in funding developing athletes either since once they get good enough, they won't be representing the fed. So there's zero incentive for feds to fund. But then the developing athletes will have to self fund everything which isn't always feasible.

I don’t think the goal should be to completely remove the federation. That’s too drastic by far. I’ve maintained all along they deserve at least one spot and with that one spot minimum should be able to remain relevant and be able to flourish. Nothing wrong with them getting three spots as has always been the case. You have to understand there are some of us who think the sport could use a little reboot at least in some disciplines to accomadate for a surge of growth in talent. It’s not a nationality vs nationality thing for me. Believe me when I say I support all levels of skaters from all nations. I post very encouraging remarks in JGP and GP threads for all disciplines for all levels of skaters. Even some of the lowest scoring ones.

I don’t want to leave anyone at home. I want to include some more and don’t believe the sport will fall apart if it upgrades in some areas to prevent careers stalling out.

 

[ice coverage]

Honestly not a bad idea as long as the ISU will cover the costs. ...

No, it is not my scenario at all that the ISU (in lieu of federations) would take on any responsibility for covering costs for GPF champs to compete at Worlds.
(Whether it would mean the ISU paying out of pocket or the ISU finding sponsors.)

My scenario (as I play devil's advocate) is that GPF champs would be responsible for covering their own costs for Worlds.

If GPF champs had individual sponsors who would fill the void, fine.
And I have no doubt that with or without sponsors, Nathan would find a way to pay the costs of training for and traveling to Worlds.

In my scenario, I think the biggest concern for Nathan would be extended lack of access to the USOC trainer who has been sticking closely to his side for the last couple of years. He knows Nathan well and has been helping him avoid injury.

... His stock is through the roof right now! . ...

Even for someone like Nathan, I imagine(??) that he will get less funding (maybe a lot less??) from sponsors in the next three -- non-Olympic -- seasons than he did in 2017-18.
Especially given that he did not win an individual Olympic medal. (Although he did win World gold.)

In the 2013-14 season, Ashley and Gracie each had a slew of mainstream sponsors.
After Sochi? Not so much.

---

... I would say a first step might be to go to 8 GP events, as someone said earlier on, but perhaps more importantly get skaters to do 3 events each. ...

In other words, force skaters to compete at three GPs each?
IMO, forcing skaters to compete does not sound like something that would be good for the sport.

In 2011, seeded skaters were given the option of competing at three GPs. Only a few skaters opted for three.

The skaters are seeded and invited to the Grand Prix of Figure Skating according to the results of the most recent ISU World Championships. Skaters/couples who have placed 1 to 6 in each of the four categories are considered to be seeded and are assigned by draw to skate in two events. These skaters may also, on a volunteer basis select to participate in a third event. They are eligible to earn prize money in all three events but only the two best results count towards the qualification for the Grand Prix Final.

https://isu.org/inside-single-pair-...honors-skate-america-preview?templateParam=15 (2011)​

Those who competed at three GPs in 2011:

Kostner; Leonova http://www.isuresults.com/events/gp2011/gpsladies.pdf

Brezina http://www.isuresults.com/events/gp2011/gpsmen.pdf

Weaver/Poje http://www.isuresults.com/events/gp2011/gpsdance.pdf

Savchenko/Szolkowy; Kavaguti/Smirnov http://www.isuresults.com/events/gp2011/gpspairs.pdf​

 

[Miller]

In other words, force skaters to compete at three GPs each?
IMO, forcing skaters to compete does not sound like something that would be good for the sport.

In 2011, seeded skaters were given the option of competing at three GPs. Only a few skaters opted for three.

The skaters are seeded and invited to the Grand Prix of Figure Skating according to the results of the most recent ISU World Championships. Skaters/couples who have placed 1 to 6 in each of the four categories are considered to be seeded and are assigned by draw to skate in two events. These skaters may also, on a volunteer basis select to participate in a third event. They are eligible to earn prize money in all three events but only the two best results count towards the qualification for the Grand Prix Final.

https://isu.org/inside-single-pair-...honors-skate-america-preview?templateParam=15 (2011)​

Those who competed at three GPs in 2011:

Kostner; Leonova http://www.isuresults.com/events/gp2011/gpsladies.pdf

Brezina http://www.isuresults.com/events/gp2011/gpsmen.pdf

Weaver/Poje http://www.isuresults.com/events/gp2011/gpsdance.pdf

Savchenko/Szolkowy; Kavaguti/Smirnov http://www.isuresults.com/events/gp2011/gpspairs.pdf​

Difference of course is I'm suggesting 3 events in 8 weeks not 6 i.e. 8 separate events, or weeks off inbetween a continent's event e.g. 2 weeks North America, week off etc. (I'd get skaters to do 1 event in 1 continent, then 1 in another, finally 3rd in a 3rd). 3 in 6 weeks is a bit much.

 

[ice coverage]

Difference of course is I'm suggesting 3 events in 8 weeks not 6 i.e. 8 separate events, or weeks off inbetween a continent's event e.g. 2 weeks North America, week off etc. (I'd get skaters to do 1 event in 1 continent, then 1 in another, finally 3rd in a 3rd). 3 in 6 weeks is a bit much.

I am skeptical that it would make a significant difference in encouraging skaters to be receptive. YMMV.

 

[karne]

Difference of course is I'm suggesting 3 events in 8 weeks not 6 i.e. 8 separate events, or weeks off inbetween a continent's event e.g. 2 weeks North America, week off etc. (I'd get skaters to do 1 event in 1 continent, then 1 in another, finally 3rd in a 3rd). 3 in 6 weeks is a bit much.

So you choose to expand the GP...and then proceed to lock the lower ranked skaters out even more by wanting to force the top skaters to do three? What even is the point of that? It makes no sense. That's not a proper expansion of our sport, that's just yet another bout of "I only want to see "top" skaters" snobbery.

 

[Miller]

So you choose to expand the GP...and then proceed to lock the lower ranked skaters out even more by wanting to force the top skaters to do three? What even is the point of that? It makes no sense. That's not a proper expansion of our sport, that's just yet another bout of "I only want to see "top" skaters" snobbery.

In my earlier post where I raised this suggestion, I suggested doubling the number of skaters at each event, part of trying to create a 'tour' as such. With this number of skaters you would end up with something like 44 skaters doing 3 events i.e. more opportunities for skaters from all countries big and small. Also there would be more 'Host Picks' also. 2 per event would fill up the final 12 slots, with the remaining 132 (144 in total, 6 * 24) consisting of those 44 doing 3.

 

[moriel]

The bad thing about 3 GPS / skater is the number of medals, which is still 3 by event. You cannot double the number of events really.

While I am an I want to see top skaters snob, I do not think that giving top skaters the option of competing at 3 GPs is fair. While you increase the number of spots, you do not increase the number of top spots, so giving 3 GPs to top skaters will just make it easier for them to hog all the medals and the GPF.

Because right now, for example, lets say at each GP we have 4 top skaters and 8 average. If you double spots and allow each top skater do 3 GPs, that will mean, on average 6 top skaters at each GP (regardless nationality).
If you are to increase the number of GP spots, give it to DIFFERENT skaters, rather than giving an extra chance to people who are already there.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I’d be very welcoming of two more GP events but would imagine it would have to start out by just expanding the field. Everyone would still skate two events and you could even have the new events change it’s hosting nation each year. Talk about growing the sport!!

This really isn’t off topic either because we would almost certainly have to increase the entries to the WC to better reflect the state of the sport.



.

 

[kenboy123]

I’d be very welcoming of two more GP events but would imagine it would have to start out by just expanding the field. Everyone would still skate two events and you could even have the new events change it’s hosting nation each year. Talk about growing the sport!!

This really isn’t off topic either because we would almost certainly have to increase the entries to the WC to better reflect the state of the sport.



.

Why do they certainly we to do it???... To increase the competition times???....if anything, they are doing the opposite as competition times are too long...no one is interested in sitting through 6 or 7 hour events...it will turn off viewers actually...

 

[Miller]

The bad thing about 3 GPS / skater is the number of medals, which is still 3 by event. You cannot double the number of events really.

While I am an I want to see top skaters snob, I do not think that giving top skaters the option of competing at 3 GPs is fair. While you increase the number of spots, you do not increase the number of top spots, so giving 3 GPs to top skaters will just make it easier for them to hog all the medals and the GPF.

Because right now, for example, lets say at each GP we have 4 top skaters and 8 average. If you double spots and allow each top skater do 3 GPs, that will mean, on average 6 top skaters at each GP (regardless nationality).
If you are to increase the number of GP spots, give it to DIFFERENT skaters, rather than giving an extra chance to people who are already there.

I suppose my counter argument is that by having 3 GPs per skater you can have the situation where each skater is competing on each continent, and essentially you've got the formation or start of one of a 'tour' that goes from continent to continent, bit like say the tennis tours tend to do. Also it would probably be more attractive to TV in that you've now got half the skating world at each GP rather than a third and so there would be more strong skaters, but as you say it would be harder for them to reach the podium. I imagine the end goal of reaching a bigger, better GPF would be the same for all of them though.

 

[ramurphy2005]

Skaters used to be allowed up to 3 GP events, but only 2 of them counted in the standings for the GPF. I don't remember when this change was made, but I do remember all the times Terry Gannon explained how things worked on the broadcasts of GP events when ABC had them.

 

[Mathman]

Skaters used to be allowed up to 3 GP events, but only 2 of them counted in the standings for the GPF. I don't remember when this change was made, but I do remember all the times Terry Gannon explained how things worked on the broadcasts of GP events when ABC had them.

Yeah. As I recall that little experiment didn't work out so well. First, IIRC, they allowed the skaters to choose after the fact which two events to count, but that was obviously unfair to the other teams. So then they required that the skaters specify beforehand which would be their two "counting" events, with the other one serving no purpose except to try to ruin someone else's day. Then they abandoned the idea altogether except for pairs.

The ISU reasoned that there were so few decent pairs teams in the world that they would have to allow teams to compete three times just to fill the rosters. (I believe that Zhang and Zhang were the last to take advantage of this quirky rule in the 2004-2005 season.)

 

[Mathman]

Some international careers are started right at Skate America

So true. One might mention Evgeni Plushenko, whose first international medal of consequence was his silver at 1997 Skate America. Or Brian Joubert whose first international gold medal came at 2002 Skate America. Alexander Abt was another whose international career started at Skate America. Joe Sobocik and Victor Petrenko also won medals at Skate America very early in their careers, before they were big-time.

yeah but without local talent, do you really think Skate America would sell out or that NBC would broadcast any of it? You need the local talent.. that is all... and usually, the local talent is not that bad anyways... perhaps the 3rd pick is an up and growing skater....

We don't have to look any farther than last year's ladies. Bradie Tennell (who?) made her international debut (except for the Tallinn Trophy earlier that year), taking third behind prospective Olympians Satoko Miyahara and Koari Sokamoto. She finishing far ahead of defending U.S. chamoion Karen Chen, whiile perennial contender Ashley Wagner withdrew.

Speaking of the 2002 Skate America, although Michelle Kwan was coerced into participating at the last minute and won the event, it was up-and comers Ann Patrice McDonough and Jennifer Kirk who stole the show.

 

[moonvine]

How about we be honest and admit that at most there is only maybe 15 ladies at most on their best day that even have a chance of getting a podium spot. Most people only watch the last couple of groups in LP anyway. The majority of ladies at Worlds are simply not very good. The truth is the truth.

I watch every skater. And can you define what you mean by "not very good?"