ISU Championship Allotments - Ladies

[mrrice]

yeah but without local talent, do you really think Skate America would sell out or that NBC would broadcast any of it? You need the local talent.. that is all... and usually, the local talent is not that bad anyways... perhaps the 3rd pick is an up and growing skater... so i don't think it makes a difference... and it's the same in GP.. you guys forget that there is a limit of 3 per country... so it's not like Skate America would have 5 russians

This true. Granted, the last live Skate America I went to was way back in 1991. Kristi and Tonya were both there and since they were ranked #1 and #2 at the time, the audience was filled to capacity and I imagine the ratings were quite good.

I've been to Skate Canada twice and both times the crowd was huge and very enthusiastic. I have no idea what the ratings were like but, I imagine they were good as well.

 

[4everchan]

I’m far more concerned about them selecting the judges but while I agree with you I think you may have missed my point a little. I really don’t care about them giving spots to local skaters and earlier I suggested making those spots even as rewards based on GP and WC results but let’s set that all aside for a moment. Picking the skaters those local talents face and the judges who judge them can be something a federation can take advantage of and really shape the landscape of the GP and subsequent GPF. That’s why I want most spots and all judges to be selected thru a system that prevents intentionally stacking an event. A performance based system. Does that make more sense?

This is sort of the thinking behind creating a spot for the highest ranking skater from a non GP hosting nation to the WC who didn’t qualify via their national championship.

I’m certainly not aiming to remove local talent.

well.. as long as judges are concerned : yes. Some international careers are started right at Skate America I think judging is uneven from competition to competition.. that's for sure. Is there a solution? Getting more consistent judging for me IS the biggest priority. Without it, you cannot grow this sport, with all its scandals and fur coats.... Common mortals (my friends) no longer relate to figure skating... Even this year, I tried my utmost so we would watch together Olympics/Worlds... but no... they haven't forgotten Didier, Salt lake, and so on.... That is a huge concern and honestly needs addressing first because without great judging, how can you for sure tell that the best skaters are left out? A huge score doesn't mean the best skater does it? :shocked:

 

[Ice Dance]

well.. as long as judges are concerned : yes. Some international careers are started right at Skate America I think judging is uneven from competition to competition.. that's for sure. Is there a solution? Getting more consistent judging for me IS the biggest priority. Without it, you cannot grow this sport, with all its scandals and fur coats.... Common mortals (my friends) no longer relate to figure skating... Even this year, I tried my utmost so we would watch together Olympics/Worlds... but no... they haven't forgotten Didier, Salt lake, and so on.... That is a huge concern and honestly needs addressing first because without great judging, how can you for sure tell that the best skaters are left out? A huge score doesn't mean the best skater does it? :shocked:

I don't know anyone outside of the regular skating audience who would have a clue who Didier is or remember the controversy in Salt Lake.

Scandals are hyped up in the media because they do grow the skating audience. Even scandals that have zero basis in fact, much less the ones that have a solid foundation.

Sadly, the media is often so busy concocting their own story around what they think will sell that they miss the real story playing out before them.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

well.. as long as judges are concerned : yes. Some international careers are started right at Skate America I think judging is uneven from competition to competition.. that's for sure. Is there a solution? Getting more consistent judging for me IS the biggest priority. Without it, you cannot grow this sport, with all its scandals and fur coats.... Common mortals (my friends) no longer relate to figure skating... Even this year, I tried my utmost so we would watch together Olympics/Worlds... but no... they haven't forgotten Didier, Salt lake, and so on.... That is a huge concern and honestly needs addressing first because without great judging, how can you for sure tell that the best skaters are left out? A huge score doesn't mean the best skater does it? :shocked:

If you wait to make changes based on being able to fix the judging.....you’re bound to lose more friends. My thinking is to fix the system to remove some of the power that can be abused. Picking who you’re skaters face and the judges who judge them. It is a tremendous source of opportunity for dubious judging.

I certainly don’t think a huge score or a medal means anyone is the best skater. To me it just means they were the best on that day. No one is really the best skater.

 

[4everchan]

I don't know anyone outside of the regular skating audience who would have a clue who Didier is or remember the controversy in Salt Lake.

Scandals are hyped up in the media because they do grow the skating audience. Even scandals that have zero basis in fact, much less the ones that have a solid foundation.

Sadly, the media is often so busy concocting their own story around what they think will sell that they miss the real story playing out before them.

maybe my friends are weird... they remember le gougne and her fur coat... and the salt lake scandal.... it was everywhere in the canadian media.... how can you forget david pelletier ? come on?

 

[4everchan]

If you wait to make changes based on being able to fix the judging.....you’re bound to lose more friends. My thinking is to fix the system to remove some of the power that can be abused. Picking who you’re skaters face and the judges who judge them. It is a tremendous source of opportunity for the judging to become corrupted.

I certainly don’t think a huge score or a medal means anyone is the best skater. To me it just means they were the best on that day. No one is really the best skater.

i am not expecting anything...

also, the fact that the ISU fails repeatedly at making ONE IJS that will work... ONE of my friends watched Nationals with me... and though she skated as a kid, she didn't know GOE... so i explained to her... now I will have to tell her that this has changed again

ISU is not thinking proactively about how to create a real, convincing judging system, that way, people can understand it, and rely on it.. and of course, not have to read a rule book every 4 years.... I used to watch sports with my landlady (she passed away a year ago)... we would watch skating... she would say : i don't understand how they get their points but i liked this guy the best... etc... and then, I tried to explain to her how it worked... she was like.. meh... too complicated... then we watched curling... she had never watched it... i told her what the rules were and the strategy and actually curling's strategy can be intricate.... she understood and started watching it, even went to some live games at Vancouver 2010... that tells you a lot about how a sport can be unknown rule wise but have logical and simple rules that can be picked up easily... it's part of the selling aspect of the sport...

Still on curling... I had never seen mixed doubles curling before the games.... the first game i was like... what is this sport... and then got it and loved it... it took ONE match... not reading a book about Base values and how those will be factored by GOE and so on.... this is a huge issue in the sport.

.. anyways.... we are going to open another debate in here, one that we have already had before... forgive me for answering your comment about judging

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I’m not interested in debating IJS either but I think it’s ok to push for changes that will improve already existing judging. I think some of the roots of the problem with poor judging are found right on topic of this thread. YMMV.

 

[karne]

I don't know anyone outside of the regular skating audience who would have a clue who Didier is or remember the controversy in Salt Lake.

Maybe not Salt Lake specifically, but they do recall judging scandal and thus the assumption that the judging is screwed up. And they do remember that it was supposedly "the Russians" who did it.

It's not just the judging. People are like "oh, add an extra spot for the top GP finisher or top CS finisher outside the country's spots!" as if the federations wouldn't immediately then start manipulating the results of Nationals to max out their entries. C'mon...

Let's say the rule is that the GPF winner gets a spot of his own, additional to any extra spots that a country has if they don't qualify for one of those. Nathan Chen wins the GPF and lo and behold, suddenly has a "poor" skate at US Nationals and comes in fourth, so the USFS can name 1-2-3 at US Nationals to the World team and Nathan just has to take up that GPF winner spot. Anyone who doesn't believe this would happen is naive at best.

 

[Spirals for Miles]

Do you really think that skaters would purposely not do their best?

 

[Koatterce]

Maybe not Salt Lake specifically, but they do recall judging scandal and thus the assumption that the judging is screwed up. And they do remember that it was supposedly "the Russians" who did it.

It's not just the judging. People are like "oh, add an extra spot for the top GP finisher or top CS finisher outside the country's spots!" as if the federations wouldn't immediately then start manipulating the results of Nationals to max out their entries. C'mon...

Let's say the rule is that the GPF winner gets a spot of his own, additional to any extra spots that a country has if they don't qualify for one of those. Nathan Chen wins the GPF and lo and behold, suddenly has a "poor" skate at US Nationals and comes in fourth, so the USFS can name 1-2-3 at US Nationals to the World team and Nathan just has to take up that GPF winner spot. Anyone who doesn't believe this would happen is naive at best.

Nathan doesn't even need to have a poor skate. USFS can just name 2-3-4 to worlds since there's no rule saying that the national champ has to be named. after all, since Nathan earned his own spot, USFS doesn't have to give him one of theirs, and they can give it to another skater

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Let's say the rule is that the GPF winner gets a spot of his own, additional to any extra spots that a country has if they don't qualify for one of those. Nathan Chen wins the GPF and lo and behold, suddenly has a "poor" skate at US Nationals and comes in fourth, so the USFS can name 1-2-3 at US Nationals to the World team and Nathan just has to take up that GPF winner spot. Anyone who doesn't believe this would happen is naive at best.

This is very easy to address and simple provisions could be put in place to prevent federations abusing these spots. . We’ve addressed this several times already.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Nathan doesn't even need to have a poor skate. USFS can just name 2-3-4 to worlds since there's no rule saying that the national champ has to be named. after all, since Nathan earned his own spot, USFS doesn't have to give him one of theirs, and they can give it to another skater

It’s really silly to think this wouldn’t be addressed but ok ... just for fun

Nathan wins GPF and earns an automatic entry to WC. If the federation decides not to send him after nationals as an eligible skater who already earned his berth then his WC spot becomes nullified. They would be essentially benching him. Now if they decide to send Nathan (4th) and the top two medalists ....well then the bronze medalists could become the next eligible entry IF they qualified on their own for an entry.

Long story short...if you have 2 spots, 3 spots, or 1 spot...you have to fill those spots with already qualified skaters or you forfeit their entry.

I’m sure we’d have to hash out a few other provisions but the goal is to prevent federation abuse...that’s important!

 

[Mathman]

But the point of the Grand Prix is to make it to the Grand Prix Final and award the “grand prize” isn’t it.

More and more. I guess I am just nostalgic for the days when it meant something to win Skate America or to be the NHK champion.

 

[Mathman]

It’s really silly to think this wouldn’t be addressed but ok ... just for fun

I agree it's silly. Nathan wins the Grand Prix Final and gets the at-large berth. The USFSA sends whichever three other skaters they choose after U.S. Nationals. The U.S. gets three spots and the ISU gets one. This does not require any manipulation of scores at U.S. Nationals, and it does not hurt Australia or any small federation, except possibly the last qualifying country at Nebelhorn if the ISU wants to be strict about the total number of entries.

Edit: Oh, wait. I see the problem. If Nathan does not go to worlds representing the United States, then his placement can't count toward the next year's quota of slots. The U.S. drops to two for the next year unless two skaters in the non-Nathan category step up.

(Meanwhile, the Nathan category qualifies for three non-denominational spots by getting first and being the only skater from his non-county. The next year the top three from the Grand Prix get to go. :yes: )

 

[Spirals for Miles]

I think this actually sounds really good
This also means that if the US wants to get its 3rd men's spot back, Nathan (or teammate!) needs to step it up at the GPF. Making every competition matter, because you can't get to the GPF if you bomb your GPS.

 

[ice coverage]

... Nathan wins the Grand Prix Final and gets the at-large berth.

... If Nathan does not go to worlds representing the United States ...

General comment (unrelated to Mathman): This thread already has had so many questionable (IMO) ideas that I will feel free to add one of my own -- carrying the notions of others to their logical conclusion.

If new rules were in place such that Nathan were to go to Worlds as GPF champion (and not as a representative of the U.S. chosen by USFS for a slot earned by the U.S.), then he should have no access to any USFS/USOC resources/support during the time btwn GPF and the conclusion of Worlds.
No funding of any kind. No travel expenses or logistical support. No access to the OTC or any of its personnel (such as his ubiquitous trainer). Etc., etc.
For all intents and purposes, he would not be a member of Team USA when at Worlds. Not announced/introduced as representing Team USA. Not allowed to wear the Team USA jacket. If he were to win, the U.S. flag would not be raised. The U.S. national anthem would not be played.

These rules would apply to any GPF champions (whether Evgenia or Kaetlyn or Yuzuru, etc.) and their respective federations.



I am dubious that such rules would be good for the sport.

(I am not trying to pick on Nathan, whom I like.)

 

[4everchan]

General comment (unrelated to Mathman): This thread already has had so many questionable (IMO) ideas that I will feel free to add one of my own -- carrying the notions of others to their logical conclusion.

If new rules were in place such that Nathan were to go to Worlds as GPF champion (and not as a representative of the U.S. chosen by USFS for a slot earned by the U.S.), then he should have no access to any USFS/USOC resources/support during the time btwn GPF and the conclusion of Worlds.
No funding of any kind. No travel expenses or logistical support. No access to the OTC or any of its personnel (such as his ubiquitous trainer). Etc., etc.
For all intents and purposes, he would not be a member of Team USA when at Worlds. Not announced/introduced as representing Team USA. Not allowed to wear the Team USA jacket. If he were to win, the U.S. flag would not be raised. The U.S. national anthem would not be played.

These rules would apply to any GPF champions (whether Evgenia or Kaetlyn or Yuzuru, etc.) and their respective federations.



I am dubious that such rules would be good for the sport.

(I am not trying to pick on Nathan, whom I like.)

you are


good post though... i enjoyed this one

 

[sweetice]

At now, even nationals are not always taken into account. Let's just think about what happen this year to Ross Miner, 2nd on US National Championship.

And the Grand Prix Final ? Poor Voronov.. the Russian fed has take him out even from Euros.
The season best of Voronov is 271, was 4th at GPF with 266.5, and Aliev has win the silver at Euros with 274 points...
Someone can say: but Russian Nationals ? Better not think about that... everyone has bombed there.

With this all spots to feds thing, some skaters just can't earn what they have deserved, in one way or another.

 

[Koatterce]

It’s really silly to think this wouldn’t be addressed but ok ... just for fun

Nathan wins GPF and earns an automatic entry to WC. If the federation decides not to send him after nationals as an eligible skater who already earned his berth then his WC spot becomes nullified. They would be essentially benching him. Now if they decide to send Nathan (4th) and the top two medalists ....well then the bronze medalists could become the next eligible entry IF they qualified on their own for an entry.

Long story short...if you have 2 spots, 3 spots, or 1 spot...you have to fill those spots with already qualified skaters or you forfeit their entry.

I’m sure we’d have to hash out a few other provisions but the goal is to prevent federation abuse...that’s important!

Now I'm confused as to what is actually being proposed. Are the pre-qualified skaters getting spots in addition to the country's earned spots or are they guaranteed one of the country's spots? Because if they're just guaranteed one of the country's spots, then there's not much change to the current system since there's like a 99% chance of the GPF winner being sent anyways.

Also, nationals are not the only deciding factor in determining who gets sent.

 

[moriel]

It’s really silly to think this wouldn’t be addressed but ok ... just for fun

Nathan wins GPF and earns an automatic entry to WC. If the federation decides not to send him after nationals as an eligible skater who already earned his berth then his WC spot becomes nullified. They would be essentially benching him. Now if they decide to send Nathan (4th) and the top two medalists ....well then the bronze medalists could become the next eligible entry IF they qualified on their own for an entry.

Long story short...if you have 2 spots, 3 spots, or 1 spot...you have to fill those spots with already qualified skaters or you forfeit their entry.

I’m sure we’d have to hash out a few other provisions but the goal is to prevent federation abuse...that’s important!

Yep. Or just forcefully fill one spot.
Nathan qualified, so Nathan goes, and the federation can do whatever they want with the other two spots (as they currently do), but Nathan's participation does not depend on nationals anymore.