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- Mar 7, 2011
Wouldn't the only source needed be what their place was in respective SP and LP? Those are of public record.
ISU Championship 'small' medals (Worlds, Jr. Worlds, 4CC, Europeans)
- Thread starter Sylvia
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Wouldn't the only source needed be what their place was in respective SP and LP? Those are of public record.
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- Mar 24, 2010
The IOC does not allow for medals to be given out for the SP and LP separately; and then another one for a combined total score medal. Not in any sport, including gymnastics. You must compete separately.
They have toyed with the idea of having a separate SP competition and LP competition; but to have it set up the way it is now with a combined SP and LP, the skaters would have to re-skate their programs for an all around title. They decided to add a team event instead.
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- Mar 25, 2008
I'm not sure; I'd think you would need some sort of reference to confirm that small medals were indeed awarded (for instance, as I pointed out, there were no small medals for CDs and ODs separately). Since the ISU itself doesn't really publicize small medals and in fact had considered doing away with them altogether, such references may not be easy to find. Also, if you look at skaters' Wikipedia entries, they're set up in such a way that there's really no place to add small medals, and adding them to event pages would look confusing with the format that's in use (which does include segment placements for most events). I for one have no intention of being the person who'll re-edit the lot!
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- Feb 20, 2010
Wow, I haven't been in the forum for a while (alright, months...) and had to spend some time catching up on recent development. Looks like there was a fair bit of discussion about small medals in ISU Championships and possibility of introducing medals for individual events (e.g. SP title, FS title and Overall titles) in Olympics, in this thread as well as another one earlier the month (http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?34758-olympic-gold-medalist). While I wouldn't mind current "small medals" at ISU Championships to be official status, I doubt IOC would consent to this kind of figure skating competitions at the Olympics, for logistical reasons as well as for principle. The situation is not really comparable to gymnastics, but rather more akin to Speed Skating (long track and short track) and weight-lifting.
Since speed skating (long track and short track) as well as figure skating is governed by ISU, its practice can be used as a strong precedent. In Long Track Speed Skating, Olympic medals are currently awarded for individual distances (500m, 1000m, 1500m, 3000m women, 5000m, and 10000m men) and team pursuits. Overall Olympic title is not awarded, with the exception of the first Winter Olympics in 1924. In World Championships, there are two types of "combined" Championships (All-Round and Sprint) as well as more recently instituted single-distances Championships (the latter is not held in Olympic year), all held separately. The All-round and Sprint Championships give only one title each officially, though ISU seem to be keeping track of wins in distances skated during these championships.
In Short Track Speed Skating, the situation is similar, with individual distances and team relay titles contested at the Olympics without the determination of Overall Champion. It somewhat differs from its long track cousins in that both Overall and individual distances titles are awarded at a single Championships (team Championships were held separately, but ISU has decided to discontinue the Championships after 2011), with the individual distances result used to determine the Overall Champion, in a point system.
Weightlifting also provides a precedent, outside the scope of ISU. Here, the Olympics award only Overall titles, while in the World Championships, the titles are awarded for individual events (snatch, clean-and-jerk) as well as Overall title. Artistic Gymnastics is not a good comparison, as All-Around titles contested at the Olympics and the World Championships do not depend on the final results of the discipline events.
From these analysis (I believe there may be other examples), we can see that ISU have a policy of allowing the results of one Olympic event to determine the results of another event. This also makes sense from their POV, in terms of logistics and maintaining prestige of Olympic titles. I wouldn't be surprised if IOC let ISU to change the format of long track and short track speed skating to the determination of one Overall Champion, based on methods these sports determine All-Around/Sprint (Long Track) or Overall (Short Track) Champion. While it is less likely to happen now in comparison to decades ago (due to logistics), my conjecture is that IOC may have allowed the ISU to hold separate SP (previously compulsory figures) and FS events at the Olympics. As for why figure skating events were not held like that in earlier decades of the last century, it may be that Overall title was the traditional method in figure skating since 1890s and that figure skating was the original winter Olympic sport; one in 1920s could be forgiven for not predicting that Olympics would grow to this kind of level. By the time more sports were added to Winter Olympics and its prestige became greater, the matter became more difficult, due to dynamics between IOC, NOCs, and International Sports Federations. IOC and ISU could also be perceived as illegitimating, or at least dividing the crown of, the past Olympic Champions.
For these reasons, I doubt IOC would allow Olympic figure skating to be held as a SP event, FS event and an Overall event, or even a separate SP and FS event to replace current Olympic format. That does not mean that this should not be tried at the ISU Championships. I would not mind the separate World Championships for SP event, FS event and Overall Classification; though I believe SP and FS should be made to be more distinct from one another in this case. Since some will understandably complain about the rights of past Overall Champions, retroactive recognition for prior winners of the SP (or CF) and FS events should follow. It doesn't necessarily have to be a special medal ceremony, but an official resolution of the ISU Congress or Council should do.
Also, I do not believe increased number of official events at the World Championships threaten the prestige of Overall Champion. This is seen in sports offered as precedents above. While the matter is not as clear in long track speed skating, with an independent World Championships for single distances it is true that All-round and Sprint Championships have longer histories and are harder to achieve then distance Championships. In short track speed skating, Overall title is the most prestigious in the World Championships and the distances titles do not carry as much prestige (perhaps best reflected by the fact that ISU doesn't even make the record of distances World Champions and medallists available on their website?). Same story goes for weightlifting-Overall Champions get much more spotlight in comparison to clean-and-jerk or snatch Champions. The situation is no different from gymnastics at the Olympics or the World Championships. Indeed that may be one of the reasons the IOC is unwilling to let the All-round and component disciplines to be held separately at the Olympics and let the results of the component disciplines to determine the overall Champion-so as to not encourage the notion that one Olympic title is worth more than another. That may be why the IOC requested the FIG (International Gymnastic Federation) to change the All-Around format so that All-around results do not depend on the discipline results; in early years of the Olympics, I believe there were occasions when only All-Around title was contested, and occasions when the All-Around title was determined by adding the results of individual disciplines.
Since speed skating (long track and short track) as well as figure skating is governed by ISU, its practice can be used as a strong precedent. In Long Track Speed Skating, Olympic medals are currently awarded for individual distances (500m, 1000m, 1500m, 3000m women, 5000m, and 10000m men) and team pursuits. Overall Olympic title is not awarded, with the exception of the first Winter Olympics in 1924. In World Championships, there are two types of "combined" Championships (All-Round and Sprint) as well as more recently instituted single-distances Championships (the latter is not held in Olympic year), all held separately. The All-round and Sprint Championships give only one title each officially, though ISU seem to be keeping track of wins in distances skated during these championships.
In Short Track Speed Skating, the situation is similar, with individual distances and team relay titles contested at the Olympics without the determination of Overall Champion. It somewhat differs from its long track cousins in that both Overall and individual distances titles are awarded at a single Championships (team Championships were held separately, but ISU has decided to discontinue the Championships after 2011), with the individual distances result used to determine the Overall Champion, in a point system.
Weightlifting also provides a precedent, outside the scope of ISU. Here, the Olympics award only Overall titles, while in the World Championships, the titles are awarded for individual events (snatch, clean-and-jerk) as well as Overall title. Artistic Gymnastics is not a good comparison, as All-Around titles contested at the Olympics and the World Championships do not depend on the final results of the discipline events.
From these analysis (I believe there may be other examples), we can see that ISU have a policy of allowing the results of one Olympic event to determine the results of another event. This also makes sense from their POV, in terms of logistics and maintaining prestige of Olympic titles. I wouldn't be surprised if IOC let ISU to change the format of long track and short track speed skating to the determination of one Overall Champion, based on methods these sports determine All-Around/Sprint (Long Track) or Overall (Short Track) Champion. While it is less likely to happen now in comparison to decades ago (due to logistics), my conjecture is that IOC may have allowed the ISU to hold separate SP (previously compulsory figures) and FS events at the Olympics. As for why figure skating events were not held like that in earlier decades of the last century, it may be that Overall title was the traditional method in figure skating since 1890s and that figure skating was the original winter Olympic sport; one in 1920s could be forgiven for not predicting that Olympics would grow to this kind of level. By the time more sports were added to Winter Olympics and its prestige became greater, the matter became more difficult, due to dynamics between IOC, NOCs, and International Sports Federations. IOC and ISU could also be perceived as illegitimating, or at least dividing the crown of, the past Olympic Champions.
For these reasons, I doubt IOC would allow Olympic figure skating to be held as a SP event, FS event and an Overall event, or even a separate SP and FS event to replace current Olympic format. That does not mean that this should not be tried at the ISU Championships. I would not mind the separate World Championships for SP event, FS event and Overall Classification; though I believe SP and FS should be made to be more distinct from one another in this case. Since some will understandably complain about the rights of past Overall Champions, retroactive recognition for prior winners of the SP (or CF) and FS events should follow. It doesn't necessarily have to be a special medal ceremony, but an official resolution of the ISU Congress or Council should do.
Also, I do not believe increased number of official events at the World Championships threaten the prestige of Overall Champion. This is seen in sports offered as precedents above. While the matter is not as clear in long track speed skating, with an independent World Championships for single distances it is true that All-round and Sprint Championships have longer histories and are harder to achieve then distance Championships. In short track speed skating, Overall title is the most prestigious in the World Championships and the distances titles do not carry as much prestige (perhaps best reflected by the fact that ISU doesn't even make the record of distances World Champions and medallists available on their website?). Same story goes for weightlifting-Overall Champions get much more spotlight in comparison to clean-and-jerk or snatch Champions. The situation is no different from gymnastics at the Olympics or the World Championships. Indeed that may be one of the reasons the IOC is unwilling to let the All-round and component disciplines to be held separately at the Olympics and let the results of the component disciplines to determine the overall Champion-so as to not encourage the notion that one Olympic title is worth more than another. That may be why the IOC requested the FIG (International Gymnastic Federation) to change the All-Around format so that All-around results do not depend on the discipline results; in early years of the Olympics, I believe there were occasions when only All-Around title was contested, and occasions when the All-Around title was determined by adding the results of individual disciplines.
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