ISU makes decision on 2015-16 GPF selection

[Tavi...]

I've asked this before without getting an answer: for those of you who believe that TEB skaters were unfairly deprived of opportunities, why do you think they deserve more consideration than the many skaters who have lost opportunities due to illness / injury? Or than Misha Ge, who couldn't get a visa to TEB?

 

[TheGrandSophy]

I'm sure everyone who finds Shoma so lucky will be relieved to find that his fans will be reminded of his 'luck' every time TEB 2015 is mentioned forever. They will also, should Shoma miraculously medal at the GPF, be reminded for all time that his medal doesn't really count. That should put at least some balm on the wound his 'luck' has caused.

 

[sabinfire]

I've asked this before without getting an answer: for those of you who believe that TEB skaters were unfairly deprived of opportunities, why do you think they deserve more consideration than the many skaters who have lost opportunities due to illness / injury? Or than Misha Ge, who couldn't get a visa to TEB?

This is pretty simple -- because all the skaters at TEB were ready, willing, and able to skate as they were scheduled to do... but the entire event was cancelled. This action was so rare, nobody had any clue of how to handle the outcome.

An illness/injury is a (unfortunate) personal circumstance for one skater, and is relatively common/unavoidable when there are 56+ skaters scheduled at each event. If the ISU were to cancel, postpone, or juggle events each time a skater got sick or injured, nothing would ever get done.

So, yes, if an entire event is cancelled impacting 56+ skaters, they definitely deserve more consideration over one person getting the flu. :scratch3:

 

[karne]

Perhaps another reason it is such a grievance to me is that Max WON his first GP of the season. He wasn't hanging onto a GPF chance with a second or third, he WON Skate America, and he won it well. But the vicious backlash and anger that he got for that seemed unwarranted and unreasonable. And look now, as soon as he wins Tallinn, there are people in here proclaiming that he only won Tallinn because of inflation. That Max now has an unjustified seventh place as his official finish at TEB - thus missing the GPF - only adds fuel to the haters' fire. Indeed, one poster in the TEB threads was GLOATING that Max was going to miss the GPF. And now Max will be the only GP winner this season to miss the GPF. And it's not his fault.

What's up with Australia and figure skating. I have only been to Australia once and it was for a very brief engagement. We sang on the steps of the Opera House for photo op. Then we took some pictures on the bridge, met some Dignitary's and left the Country. The only thing I truly remember about Australia is that is was 5000 degree's. I couldn't have imagined figure skating happening in any way.

Well, I suppose it's like having skaters that come from Arizona and Texas, yes? It's such a shame that you were stuck in dirty cramped Sydney for the time you were here. There's so much more to it than that.

 

[NanaPat]

I was hoping they would allow all 1st and 2nd place finishers from each discipline at the GPF, which would expand the field to 8 or 9 (max 12, but already some multiple winners) potentially, in each discipline. That would be a great preview of worlds, assuming folks make it out of nationals. Tukt, potentially not make it, would be disappointing because I fully believe she would have climbed up to 2nd or 3rd at Bompard. While I typically support US ladies, I think that it would be a fair resolution to be more generous about inclusions.

But that changes the whole premise of how the GPF participants are chosen; that it is based on two competitions, not the single best competition. Would you like that change to be used every year from now on? I suspect that there have been many instances in the past where someone won a single GP gold (or silver) and didn't get to the finals. Perhaps someone with more knowledge or patience than I have can provide some examples.

I know that TEB 2015 was a highly unusual event, but to change the whole system or GPF selection to allow for a perceived injustice to one skater seems extreme.

By the way, there was a discussion in the "who missed 6.0" thread about the effect of a bad short program in the two systems. A lot of people are saying "so-and-so could have risen a lot in the standings based on the long program because he/she/they were only x points out of n-th place". Under the 6.0 system, those people would not have been given an opportunity to rise a lot in the standings, because placements and not marks were used to determine "how far behind" someone was. In the 6.0 system, as at TEB, there was no opportunity to overcome a bad short program. The major difference is that under 6.0 skaters knew that and strategized accordingly. Some TEB skaters would probably have skated their SPs differently if they knew the LPs would be cancelled. But that is equally true of all the skaters, so is "fair" in that it treated everyone the same.

 

[NanaPat]

Some skaters already lost out winning the prize money at TEB they were used to expect given the normal opportunity. Then a few will lose out the opportunity to earn the bigger GPF prize money they could normally expect. I'm sure this makes life somewhat more difficult for them. But then again, it's life and I haven't heard any big name moaning about it.

Yes, but the money and ranking points for TEB didn't disappear into thin air; they went to other skaters, based on their actual results at TEB. In the case of the money, it may have gone to skaters who need it even more than those who expected it. I think that's the best possible solution. Imagine the outcry if the ISU didn't award that money or those points to anyone, or used non-TEB factors to award them. We'd all be up in arms, and rightly so.

I did expect them to be more generous in allowing TEB skaters to qualify for the GPF, but at least they did something. Also, the something they did was simple enough not to look like it was manipulated to favor some skaters.

 

[ice coverage]

But that changes the whole premise of how the GPF participants are chosen; that it is based on two competitions, not the single best competition. Would you like that change to be used every year from now on? ...

And the premise of a GP is that it is based on both an SP/SD and a FS/FD -- not on an SP/SD alone.
But an exception was made this year b/c of extenuating circumstances.

By your own logic, an equally valid question would be: Would you like GPs to be based only on an SP/SD every year from now on?

 

[silverlake22]

True, though if Pogorilya is the one who jumps up, it can't be to a place higher than third or else Liza also can't go... if she's first (quite unlikely) or second (unlikely but not nearly as unlikely) Liza also won't make it. She basically needs the placements to work out in a very specific way for her to be able to go, and while the placements she needs people to have in and of themselves aren't unlikely, there is very little wiggle room in how it goes- if one person flips with another just so, she's out.

Yes, with Rika beating Tuk in the tiebreaker, the results have to go a very specific way for her to get in. And with the NHK ladies field being stacked with so many talented skaters, most of whom are inconsistent, the results could wind up any number of ways. Apart from Mao who will most likely win (and even that isn't a given considering her CoC FS and harsh calls in her CoC SP), the rest of the results are pretty much wide open IMO. I could feasibly see Satoko or Anna placing 2nd or as far down as like 6th or lower.

 

[cl2]

The ISU ruling on this unprecedented turn of events is probably about as fair as it can get, for something being decided after the occurrence of the disruption. However, does this same ruling apply to future disruptions? As some other posters have asked, why doesn't ISU already have a protocol in place for unforseeable disruptions? Do you think ISU should have in place a basic contingency plan in case of disruptions, or address each disruption only when it actually happens? (Though I sincerely hope that no events of the nature of the Paris attacks will ever occur again.)

 

[Mathman]

^ If nothing else, at least now they have precedent to appeal to, even if they don't formally incorporate it into rules going forward.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Yes, with Rika beating Tuk in the tiebreaker, the results have to go a very specific way for her to get in. And with the NHK ladies field being stacked with so many talented skaters, most of whom are inconsistent, the results could wind up any number of ways. Apart from Mao who will most likely win (and even that isn't a given considering her CoC FS and harsh calls in her CoC SP), the rest of the results are pretty much wide open IMO. I could feasibly see Satoko or Anna placing 2nd or as far down as like 6th or lower.

Most likely, yes. But it's worth noting that Asada's GP score this season was 197.48, whereas Wagner's was 202.52.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Rika needs Pogorilaya to finish 3rd (or lower) and Miyahara to finish 4th (or lower) at NHK. I want her in the GPF!!!

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Rika needs Pogorilaya to finish 3rd (or lower) and Miyahara to finish 4th (or lower) at NHK. I want her in the GPF!!!

Honestly, she really deserves it. She totally got Suzuki'd at Cup of China (as in Mao-Suzuki, NHK 2012).

 

[Mrs. P]

Honestly, she really deserves it. She totally got Suzuki'd at Cup of China (as in Mao-Suzuki, NHK 2012).

Well that is more appropriate considering Akiko choreographed her programs.

 

[NanaPat]

And the premise of a GP is that it is based on both an SP/SD and a FS/FD -- not on an SP/SD alone.
But an exception was made this year b/c of extenuating circumstances.

By your own logic, an equally valid question would be: Would you like GPs to be based only on an SP/SD every year from now on?

Of course not. This year was highly unusual.

My question was actually serious, not sarcastic. The post that I was replying to just said "let's let all the silver and gold medalists into the GPF", and didn't gave any justification. Under that scheme, someone with a single SP TEB gold or silver medal would be in the final, which could make the TEB results more important than they are the current plan. In theory (though perhaps not in fact), it seems to increase rather than decrease the impact of the TEB cancellation.

There could be an argument made for changing the GPF qualification rules to consider the best event instead of the sum of two events. If someone started a separate thread on it, it might grow to as big as this one. And I can see people arguing vehemently for it (and against it).

I wasn't saying that it is a terrible idea, but just that it is a very fundamental change. The scheme the ISU came up with is a much more in keeping with the way things are done now (except for the unavoidable cancellation of the TEB LPs) with very minimal concessions to skaters who were disadvantaged by the cancellation. In fact, I think they should have added more skaters to the final and done a better job of defining who was disadvantaged. The problem with that is the more complicated it is, the more likely it is to be accused of being contrived to favor certain skaters.

 

[Mathman]

My question was actually serious, not sarcastic. The post that I was replying to just said "let's let all the silver and gold medalists into the GPF", and didn't gave any justification.

It was actually mentioned on the other thread on this topic that this was more or less the original idea of the "Championship Series" which became the Grand Prix. You take the winners of the six events. If that doesn't add up to six different skaters, then you take the second place winners. If that does not add up to six or more, then take all the third place winners. This could result in a varying number of skaters in the final. (In 1996 Michelle Kwan won three of the five events, with second place duplications, and they went all the way down to third, which placed seven ladies in the final.)

I think the main reason for the change was that Cinquanta wanted to spread out the talent and guarantee that each event had participation from at least some of the top skaters. He didn't want a situation where a Michelle Kwan could win Skate America and then decide that she didn't really feel like traveling to Russia or China, see you in the finals.

This actually almost happened in 2002. Michelle wanted to take the 2002 post-Olympic fall season off altogether. Skate America was in clover with all of the 2002 Olympic gold medalists penciled in. (Spokane was resplendent in Sarah Hughes posters.) Then Sale and Pelletire withdrew. Then Berezhnaya and Sikharudliza withdrew. Then (IIRC, not completely sure if they were scheduled) Annisina and Peizerat. Yagudin skated the short program but was unable to continue and retired at Skate Canada the next week.

Skate America had gone from riches to rags. To save the competition, the USFSA called up Shep Goldberg (Michelle Kwan's agent) and "made her an offer she couldn't refuse." Michelle even said at the time (quoting Michael Corleone) "Just when you think you're out, they pull you back in.

Anyway, Michelle won and got 15 qualifying points for the Grand Prix Final. This held up, even though she did only one competition. Somehow she was able to wiggle out of doing the GP Final (hey, that wasn't part pf the deal!), although she did a cheesefest just before the final was held.

Strange as it seems, as it turned out, all that wasn't really necessary to save Skate America (except possibly to sell tickets). Newcomers Jenny Kirk, Ann Patrice MacDonough, and Brian Joubert stole the show and were the toast of the town. :yes: Michelle went on to win her 7th U.S. championship and 5th World Championship.

 

[Tavi...]

This is pretty simple -- because all the skaters at TEB were ready, willing, and able to skate as they were scheduled to do... but the entire event was cancelled. This action was so rare, nobody had any clue of how to handle the outcome.

An illness/injury is a (unfortunate) personal circumstance for one skater, and is relatively common/unavoidable when there are 56+ skaters scheduled at each event. If the ISU were to cancel, postpone, or juggle events each time a skater got sick or injured, nothing would ever get done.

So, yes, if an entire event is cancelled impacting 56+ skaters, they definitely deserve more consideration over one person getting the flu. :scratch3:

Perhaps I should have phrased my question a little differently because I agree that the situations are different - and more to the point, so does the ISU, since the extra qualifying provision is only applicable to the TEB skaters.

What I meant, and really should have asked, is if the situation experienced by the TEB skaters was more unfair than the situation experienced by an ill or injured skater, or one with visa issues. And in my mind, it was not: whether due to food poisoning, a training injury, a visa problem, or a terrorist attack, in each case a skater who planned to compete was prevented from doing so by events outside his or her control. In this context, the timing seems irrelevant to me.

In truth, when I hear the word "unfair" as applied to the TEB skaters, all I can think of is how much more horribly unfair it was for 100+ innocent people to die simply because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. So I have a hard time agreeing when people talk about how unfair things are for the TEB skaters.

Perhaps another reason it is such a grievance to me is that Max WON his first GP of the season. He wasn't hanging onto a GPF chance with a second or third, he WON Skate America, and he won it well. But the vicious backlash and anger that he got for that seemed unwarranted and unreasonable. And look now, as soon as he wins Tallinn, there are people in here proclaiming that he only won Tallinn because of inflation. That Max now has an unjustified seventh place as his official finish at TEB - thus missing the GPF - only adds fuel to the haters' fire. Indeed, one poster in the TEB threads was GLOATING that Max was going to miss the GPF. And now Max will be the only GP winner this season to miss the GPF. And it's not his fault.

Karne, as I hope you know from my posts, I am not a Max hater. His exhibition was my favorite performance at Skate America bar none. I have great respect for his hard work, determination and commitment to change, and I have seen a big improvement in his presentation. He seems like a very classy person, and I was very happy for him that he won Skate America. I'm sorry that he is unlikely to go to the GPF this year. But I don't think he's the victim of a huge injustice. And while, like every skater, he has his share of detractors, I don't think there are as many as you believe. In fact I've heard far more positive comments about Max in the past few months than negative ones.

I know Max is one of your favorite skaters - perhaps your greatest favorite - and I know you think he's gotten a raw deal in the past few years. But what happened with TEB was not about somebody st the ISU dissing Max anymore than sending Max to Worlds in 2014 instead of Jason was about USFS dissing Jason.

 

[sabinfire]

What I meant, and really should have asked, is if the situation experienced by the TEB skaters was more unfair than the situation experienced by an ill or injured skater, or one with visa issues. And in my mind, it was not: whether due to food poisoning, a training injury, a visa problem, or a terrorist attack, in each case a skater who planned to compete was prevented from doing so by events outside his or her control. In this context, the timing seems irrelevant to me.

Yes, the situation with TEB is more unfair. And here's why:

TEB was cancelled and all the skaters were prevented from competing, despite travelling to the arena and being ready, willing, and able to perform as originally scheduled. That was beyond the skater's control.

In the case of sickness or injury, the skater is able to carefully consider their personal condition/circumstances, and evaluate on their own whether they will be able to skate or not. If the skater feels they cannot compete, they will voluntarily withdraw. The skater is the one making the final decision here, and that's what makes it less 'unfair'.

 

[el henry]

As much as I love my own opinion, even I get sick of reading it sometimes. But to answer Tavi's question:

I don't think the situation experienced by the TEB skaters is more or less "unfair" than say, Misha Ge, who was ready willing and able to perform and prevented by political events. In fact, it is very similar to his situation. Which is why it is still my belief that it should either have been thrown out altogether, or measures taken to complete the competition with free skates. This cockamamie we'll count the short, except in February which has 28 days and maybe invite a 7th, well....:whack:

I'm certainly not changing *my* opinion because the ISU decided otherwise. What kind of opinionator would I be then?

 

[karne]

But what happened with TEB was not about somebody st the ISU dissing Max anymore than sending Max to Worlds in 2014 instead of Jason was about USFS dissing Jason.

I don't think the ISU deliberately set out to "diss" Max. But I DO think that if it had been, say, Hanyu, or Chan, or Fernandez, or even Ten, they would have been much more inclined to come up with a method to ensure they made the final. Just as if Volosozhar and Trankov, or Duhamel and Radford had been in Tarasova/Morozov's place.

I don't think the situation experienced by the TEB skaters is more or less "unfair" than say, Misha Ge, who was ready willing and able to perform and prevented by political events. In fact, it is very similar to his situation.

I disagree. It's not at all like Misha Ge's situation. Misha knew for quite some time that he would not be able to skate at TEB. I believe the withdrawal was announced in mid-September, and he likely saw the writing on the wall with the visa situation long before then. But the skaters who were actually AT TEB had actually shown up, practiced, drawn slots, warmed up, competed their shorts, gone to sleep, warmed up, and we know for a fact that many of the ladies were already in full competition makeup/dress and ready to skate by the time the decision was actually communicated to them - they were likely all psyching themselves up already. That is where the separation lies.