ISU Where Will Worlds BE (formerly) JAPAN QUAKE FOR WORLDS

[janetfan]

Happy Birthday to you. too, Seniorita. (Seniorita, Doris and I -- and Akiko -- all have the same birthday.)

Happy birthday to all of you.

I will miss Akiko at the WC. :scowl:
Isn't it strange that several of the best skaters in the world are not allowed to compete at what is called a WC?

That feels more like a pageant type rule and does not seem very sporting.

If the ISU wants skating to be more like a real sport they might follow the model of other sports like tennis and golf that don't deny top 10 competitors a shot at the biggest event of the season.

What a shame skaters like Akiko and Mirai can't compete so much less talented skaters can.

Again, is this sport or pageant?

 

[Robeye]

I've got to say, both these posts make complete sense to me. :yes:

I think we can all agree that figure skating is not as hoity-toity as opera and ballet. I think we can also agree that it is a little more hoity-toity than soccer and hockey. You pay your money and you take your choice.

About music in floor exercises for ladies gymnastics, that is an interesting comparison. As far as I can tell female gymnasts do not make any use of their music at all. They do a couple of cutsy-wootsy poses (cutsy-wootsy is not to be confused with hoity-toity ), then they get down to business and do their tumbling passes.

Is ladies figure skating in danger of becoming like that?

Mathman, I believe that you were born out of your time. There are occasions when your writing is like a strain of Rochefoucauld (its epigrammatic cast, and in pith and point) that has been merrily crossbred with the fables of Fontaine (in its illustrative quality).

My own attempt at a contribution to your ground-breaking concept of skating "hoity-toityness" (I'll call it "HT" for short): it seems to me that we often lose sight of the fact that the idea of figure skating as a deliberately aesthetic enterprise is actually still in its infancy, as artistic disciplines go, and perhaps a foundling at that. IMO, it wasn't until figures were eliminated that the notion of skating as an expressive vehicle was allowed true scope (and the reason that Janet Lynn is still worshipped today as one its martyrs, when many champions of and before her time are now little more than historical curiosities).

Further, when we consider the evolution of art forms for which there is documentation, it is often the case that they came from humble beginnings. It is now a truism that Jazz is the only authentically American art (and in its finest exponents, is now considered by many to be "high art" and hence HT/cerebral/esoteric/etc., the incontrovertible proof of which is the reflexive dislike in which it is held by the average teen ).

But this wasn't always the case. A music that started with the poor and the colored, to the use the term of the time, and probably with more rudimentary techniques, and enjoyed a phase in which it was the rock music for an earlier generation, has scaled to the higher rungs of the HT ladder. What's revealing, though, is that it took a century to achieve this, and will require yet more time to reach HT empyrean (although it will, I believe, eventually get there).

There are, I suggest, some real parallels with skating. Like jazz (and the British Empire), skating's artistry was perhaps 'acquired in a fit of absent mindedness' (when people watched Janet Lynn and started to wonder: "hmmm, I actually quite enjoyed that... why didn't she win?" Vox populi vox dei.).

IMHO, where skating sometimes goes wrong is in its nouveau insecurity. Like a Victorian lady's maid striving to acquire an instant patina of caste by aping the decolletage of her mistress, I often feel that skating is overly concerned with hewing to the conventions of older, more established artistic disciplines such as ballet. My gripe is not against borrowing as such (actually, the practice has always been rife in all the arts, including ballet), but rather against the conviction among some that wholesale adoption is de rigueur and does not admit of choice in the matter.

As in the case of the aforementioned domestic (who, so I've been told, later got a job in a typing pool, demonstrated her intelligence and spunk, rose to CEO and started buying haute couture to her own taste), I predict that figure skating, having acquired a taste for artistry as an intentional project, will continue to evolve, gradually and organically developing its own set of conventions and, eventually, mature. In some ways, I think we are lucky to be able to watch skating in its period of change; artistic maturity has its own issues, including the real prospect of hieratic stagnation. So let's not be too hard on it for deficiencies in HT during its growing pains.

The potential spanner in the works is always the fooling around with the rules. Whether or not the current rules regime represents the ideal balance of sport and art, I'm of the mind that it nevertheless maintains enough space for at least the possibility of meaningful artistic performance. If, however, skating begins to swing too far to the technical (eg the school figures era) or too often, the evolution of skating aesthetics will be stunted, and may even suffer an extinction event.

Math, I hope you were laughing as hard when you wrote this as I was when I read it. I immediately had a mental image of Philippe Candeloro in one of his more out-there pro skates.

Seriously, though, I wonder if we could make the case for skating carrying an extra emotional power because of the way the skater interacts with the music. Of course all sport can be incredibly emotional! But musical interpretation (if it's done right; not all skaters hit this mark, of course) adds an emotional level to the skating program that goes beyond just the excitement of seeing a phenomenal jumping pass. I must confess that a gymnastics floor exercise rarely does that for me, largely because as Mathman says the gymnasts don't really make use of the music. (Face it: we think skating programs are restrictive because of their requirements, but gymnastics programs are ten times more demanding. There's no way a gymnast could use a piece such as Gershwin's Piano Concerto in F for a floor exercise.)

I think you are absolutely right in your comments, Olympia. The emotional experience stemming from good art is different from the sporting experience, both in terms of the available range, and in the sense that the artistic experience is communicative: at its best, we feel the thrill of understanding the emotional message sent by the artist, like receiving a gift from a lover.

And I agree that gymnastics, rhythmic or otherwise, are in this sense what skating used to be like, and have only limited scope for, as you say, the artistic experience.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Mathman. It is difficult to understand a good presentation when the poor Ladies have to worry about points which they get from Big Tricks - not from ART.

It's not a question of when Ladies Figure Skating will become like poses in a Ladies Gymnastics, it ALREADY HAS! Both Sports use background music and it seems to me to get those Ladies into a rhythm is extreemely difficult. The TRICKS are about Sport - not ART.

Anyway fans of figure skating, although limited in number, compared to other musical events will prevail as will the fans of Diving interests.

Bring back the FREE SKATE, and let's talk about superb presentations.

 

[Olympia]

Happy Birthday to you. too, Seniorita. (Seniorita, Doris and I -- and Akiko -- all have the same birthday.)

And I send my birthday greetings to all of you, too. How lovely to find so many sterling skating posters sharing a birthday! Must be something in the stars.

 

[gkelly]

Isn't it strange that several of the best skaters in the world are not allowed to compete at what is called a WC?

That feels more like a pageant type rule and does not seem very sporting.

If the ISU wants skating to be more like a real sport they might follow the model of other sports like tennis and golf that don't deny top 10 competitors a shot at the biggest event of the season.

Instead, the ISU follows the model of the "real sport" of speedskating, which they also administer.


At the World Short Track Championships earlier this month, there were a maximum of three competitors from each country:
http://www.sportresult.com/federations/ISU/ShortTrack/Results.aspx?evt=11210300000009

I don't follow the sport, but I would bet that the fourth-best short track skater from Korea, China, Canada, and some of the other top-placing countries is better than the best skater from the lower-placing countries.

For regular speedskating, there doesn't seem to be a single championships event of the same sort, but a World Cup series similar to the figure skating Grand Prix. As far as I can tell, it appears that the maximum number of entries from each country is 5 per sex and distance. That maximum also applies to the World Cup Final, so theoretically if a country has six or more skaters who meet the qualifications to enter the WCF for that distance, they have to leave someone home (or enter them in another distance they also qualify for).

http://www.isuresults.eu/

Does that make speedskating pageantlike?

 

[janetfan]

Instead, the ISU follows the model of the "real sport" of speedskating, which they also administer.


At the World Short Track Championships earlier this month, there were a maximum of three competitors from each country:
http://www.sportresult.com/federations/ISU/ShortTrack/Results.aspx?evt=11210300000009

I don't follow the sport, but I would bet that the fourth-best short track skater from Korea, China, Canada, and some of the other top-placing countries is better than the best skater from the lower-placing countries.

For regular speedskating, there doesn't seem to be a single championships event of the same sort, but a World Cup series similar to the figure skating Grand Prix. As far as I can tell, it appears that the maximum number of entries from each country is 5 per sex and distance. That maximum also applies to the World Cup Final, so theoretically if a country has six or more skaters who meet the qualifications to enter the WCF for that distance, they have to leave someone home (or enter them in another distance they also qualify for).

http://www.isuresults.eu/

Does that make speedskating pageantlike?

A Grand Prix event or many "Open" events are not billing themselves as the "World Championship."

We just disagree and you prefer the political and pageant style selection process ISU uses for a limited WC.

I prefer formats seen in some of the more successful sports.
I recall watching the US Tennis championship last season as was surprised by how many Russian Ladies were competing.

My reaction was that Russian Ladies are doing very well these days in tennis. Thankfully they don't limit Russia or other countries to 1,2 or 3 players but use a system based on rankings.

Pageants as we know are operating in a similar style as ISU thinking they must have representatives from every country that is a member.

But as a sports fan I don't buy a "World championship" that leaves potential podium contenders at home just so Miss Lithuania or whoever gets to "compete" actually "participate" is the right word.

 

[KKonas]

Mathman. It is difficult to understand a good presentation when the poor Ladies have to worry about points which they get from Big Tricks - not from ART.

It's not a question of when Ladies Figure Skating will become like poses in a Ladies Gymnastics, it ALREADY HAS! Both Sports use background music and it seems to me to get those Ladies into a rhythm is extreemely difficult. The TRICKS are about Sport - not ART.

Anyway fans of figure skating, although limited in number, compared to other musical events will prevail as will the fans of Diving interests.

Bring back the FREE SKATE, and let's talk about superb presentations.

Under the IJS the only inference of "art" is found under program components in the description of "interpretation" which states that one aspect of the program should 'Use finesse to reflect the nuances of the music" and further describes "Finesse is the skater's refined, artful manipulation of nuances. Nuances are the personal artistic ways of bringing subtle variations to the intensity, tempo and dynamics of the music."

If you are looking for more "artistic" appeal instead of "finesse" and "nuances" in a sporting context, you might enjoy the performances at the Ice Theatre of New York, www.icetheatre.org. It is located right in NYC at Chelsea Piers.

 

[gkelly]

A Grand Prix event or many "Open" events are not billing themselves as the "World Championship."

So you're saying that a "world championship" should be a single event at which the best in the world and only the best in the world compete, regardless of nationality? Does tennis even have a world championship, in that case?

We just disagree and you prefer the political and pageant style selection process ISU uses for a limited WC.

I didn't say I prefer it. I just recognize that it is what it is because of the history of the sport as an amateur sport rooted in the Olympic movement.

If you compare to other Olympic sports in which, for most of their history, it was necessary for the best athletes in the world to maintain amateur status, and in which Olympic participation by a limited number of entries from each of a large number of countries has been the ideal, you'll have a better understanding of why the ISU establishes its entry limits the way it does.

You don't have to prefer that method, but recognize that two things would need to happen before skating (figure or speed) could
There would have to be massive influxes of cash to hold events and pay participants

I do strongly object to the use of the term "pageant" to characterize figure skating. That word has often been used to insinuate that skating competitions are judged on appearance rather than technique, which I think represents a significant misunderstanding of skating judging and skating technique. When you said "if the ISU wants skating to be more like a real sport" you implied that you did not believe skating is a real sport, which suggests to me that you also share that misunderstanding.

Maybe that's not what you mean by "pageant" and you're only referring to the process of selecting world championship participants. But that doesn't make the sport less real in the sense of less objective, if speedskating and other racing sports use similar limits.

Racing sports (not car racing, but speedskating, skiing, swimming, running, etc.) also tend to have deep history in amateurism and the Olympic movement. In their Olympic events, they limit participation by country. I haven't researched how or whether they each organize world championships. To the extent that they limit the number participants per country and allow entries by the top representative of member countries that aren't top performers in the sport, if in fact that is the case, would that make racing a non-real sport?

What it makes them is sports that are not organized on a professional model.

I prefer formats seen in some of the more successful sports.

Why are they "successful"? If I understand correctly, you're referring primarily to professional sports.
Enough people are willing to watch them, pay to watch them, and buy products associated with the sport that enough sponsors are willing to pour money into paying the athletes and buying ad time for many hours worth of television coverage.

And in many of those sports, only a few countries are represented in their so-called "world championships."

If you can find sponsors to develop a circuit of the sort you'd like to see, perhaps an extended Grand Prix circuit with a 30- or 24-skater-per-discipline GPF as the world championships, great. Maybe those sponsors and the fans who support them would prefer a world championship with 10 Japanese ladies, 10 American ladies, and a handful of whoever's the best of the rest in the rest of the world.

But as long as skating is run by a governing body consisting of all member federations and not by corporate sponsors, it will continue to allow participation in championships by as many of its members (federations, not individual skaters) as have skaters eligible to enter.

 

[janetfan]

So you're saying that a "world championship" should be a single event at which the best in the world and only the best in the world compete, regardless of nationality? Does tennis even have a world championship, in that case?



I didn't say I prefer it. I just recognize that it is what it is because of the history of the sport as an amateur sport rooted in the Olympic movement.

If you compare to other Olympic sports in which, for most of their history, it was necessary for the best athletes in the world to maintain amateur status, and in which Olympic participation by a limited number of entries from each of a large number of countries has been the ideal, you'll have a better understanding of why the ISU establishes its entry limits the way it does.

You don't have to prefer that method, but recognize that two things would need to happen before skating (figure or speed) could
There would have to be massive influxes of cash to hold events and pay participants

I do strongly object to the use of the term "pageant" to characterize figure skating. That word has often been used to insinuate that skating competitions are judged on appearance rather than technique, which I think represents a significant misunderstanding of skating judging and skating technique. When you said "if the ISU wants skating to be more like a real sport" you implied that you did not believe skating is a real sport, which suggests to me that you also share that misunderstanding.

Maybe that's not what you mean by "pageant" and you're only referring to the process of selecting world championship participants. But that doesn't make the sport less real in the sense of less objective, if speedskating and other racing sports use similar limits.

Racing sports (not car racing, but speedskating, skiing, swimming, running, etc.) also tend to have deep history in amateurism and the Olympic movement. In their Olympic events, they limit participation by country. I haven't researched how or whether they each organize world championships. To the extent that they limit the number participants per country and allow entries by the top representative of member countries that aren't top performers in the sport, if in fact that is the case, would that make racing a non-real sport?

What it makes them is sports that are not organized on a professional model.



Why are they "successful"? If I understand correctly, you're referring primarily to professional sports.
Enough people are willing to watch them, pay to watch them, and buy products associated with the sport that enough sponsors are willing to pour money into paying the athletes and buying ad time for many hours worth of television coverage.

And in many of those sports, only a few countries are represented in their so-called "world championships."

If you can find sponsors to develop a circuit of the sort you'd like to see, perhaps an extended Grand Prix circuit with a 30- or 24-skater-per-discipline GPF as the world championships, great. Maybe those sponsors and the fans who support them would prefer a world championship with 10 Japanese ladies, 10 American ladies, and a handful of whoever's the best of the rest in the rest of the world.

But as long as skating is run by a governing body consisting of all member federations and not by corporate sponsors, it will continue to allow participation in championships by as many of its members (federations, not individual skaters) as have skaters eligible to enter.

I reallly don't disagree with much of what you said here. But also I think there is room for differing POV's.

I am not sure if I consider skating, at the highest level an amateur sport since there is prize money and additional funding provided to many skaters.

If you finance your own skating and don't compete for money or other rewards other than a medal I would consider you an amateur.
I doubt if you can find many who think of skaters like Yuna, Mao, Plushenko, etc as amateurs.

Plushy may be ineligible at the moment but before when he was eligible I considered him a professional skater. I don't ever think there was a true amateur skater from the Soviet/Russian federation.

Speed skating and figure skating have one thing in common which is they are disciplines that take place on a type of skate.
Even though they may be run by ISU I don't see much in common and don't think your comparisons are all that valid.

Tennis has four major championships, and none of them exclude top players, certainly not top 10 players because they understand how a better competition helps drive public interest. The major Tennis championships are doing very well, all have major intl broadcasting contracts which at the least shows more public interest in tennis than it does in skating.

I wouldn't be so quick to defend skating and how it is run, atleast not from an American perspective.
.
Like I said, many of your points are well taken and I do understand something about various Olympic qualifying events.
That doesn't mean I have to agree with them. Tennis was not always so popular and once upon a time it was a niche sport and primarily played and followed by the upper classes.

The fact that tennis is so well run and it's Open championships are booming gives me hope that skating will bounce back in the USA.

Two years ago, an Amercian won the Men's WC in his home country. It's ashame it wasn't shown on TV but that is due to skating's lack of popualrity in USA.

FYI, American tennis players are not the dominant force they used to be but the sport is still thriving in the USA.
Skating unfortunately can't seem to capture the American public unless an American Lady is winning championships.

That alone feels somewhat "pageanty" to me, and I have my doubts that the prettiest/cutest girls do not have an advantage in figure skating.
Or maybe it is just a coincidence that so many champions and medalists are so attractive.

Go figure :think:

 

[bigsisjiejie]

<snip>

Pageants as we know are operating in a similar style as ISU thinking they must have representatives from every country that is a member.

But as a sports fan I don't buy a "World championship" that leaves potential podium contenders at home just so Miss Lithuania or whoever gets to "compete" actually "participate" is the right word.

I don't find the current structuring of Worlds as a "pageant" but I would call it more of a "sports festival" whose primary principle seems to be participation from as many federations as possible, no matter how uncompetitive the skater might be. I understand why the ISU does it this way, but I also agree with Hernando's last paragraph.

At the very least, the current selection process should be augmented to allow for 3 to 5 additional "Wild Card" picks from among the top skaters of the world that fall outside the normal entry limits of their federation. I'm sure some sort of criteria could be developed for Wild Card eligibility. Heck, I'd even go for putting seemingly equally deserving candidates' names in a hat, and drawing 3 at random. Then at least a skater like a 2011 Suzuki or Nagasu would have a shot--and the competition overall would be enhanced, not diminished.

 

[gkelly]

Instead of basing the number of slots available per country on the results of the same championship the year before, with a maximum of 3 per country, maybe they could do something like

give every country 1 guaranteed slot per discipline to medalists from last year's event

For Euros and 4Cs, give individuals who are currently in the top X of the world standings (or top Y among skaters from that geographical division) or who have top Z season's best scores direct entry, regardless of nationality. Countries that have direct qualified entries could use their one free spot to enter a newcomer (e.g., surprise national champion) or injured/returning veteran.

For Worlds, the direct qualifiers could be by the same procedure with different values for X, Y, or Z. Or they could just be the medalists/top 5 or 6 from that year's GPF, Euros, and 4Cs, and JGPF/Jr. World medalists if age eligible.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Under the IJS the only inference of "art" is found under program components in the description of "interpretation" which states that one aspect of the program should 'Use finesse to reflect the nuances of the music" and further describes "Finesse is the skater's refined, artful manipulation of nuances. Nuances are the personal artistic ways of bringing subtle variations to the intensity, tempo and dynamics of the music."

If you are looking for more "artistic" appeal instead of "finesse" and "nuances" in a sporting context, you might enjoy the performances at the Ice Theatre of New York, www.icetheatre.org. It is located right in NYC at Chelsea Piers.

Good post, Konas - I have had the suspicion for years that Presentation meant to show off your tricks to music and not necessarily to show works of art which as we know is in the eyes of the beholder. From way back in time, I learned that the two scored marks were for Content of Program and Manner of Performance. I still look at it that way, but younger fans than I see some sort of Grande Art which I do not. I know it goes against the present day grain of majority thought, but I can not be convinced it could be otherwise.

I have seen many shows at Ice Theatre of New York and enjoy them especially when the skater Lee is choreographing and skating in the show who, btw, is an alumni of the American School of Ballet.

 

[Mathman]

I've got to say, both these posts make complete sense to me.

Mathman, I believe that you were born out of your time. There are occasions when your writing is like a strain of Rochefoucauld (its epigrammatic cast, and in pith and point) that has been merrily crossbred with the fables of Fontaine (in its illustrative quality).

OK, having fortified myself by looking up Rochefoucauld and Fontaine on Wikipedia, I now feel prepared to take up my end of the conversation.

My own attempt at a contribution to your ground-breaking concept of skating "hoity-toityness" (I'll call it "HT" for short): it seems to me that we often lose sight of the fact that the idea of figure skating as a deliberately aesthetic enterprise is actually still in its infancy, as artistic disciplines go, and perhaps a foundling at that. IMO, it wasn't until figures were eliminated that the notion of skating as an expressive vehicle was allowed true scope (and the reason that Janet Lynn is still worshipped today as one its martyrs, when many champions of and before her time are now little more than historical curiosities).

Further, when we consider the evolution of art forms for which there is documentation, it is often the case that they came from humble beginnings. It is now a truism that Jazz is the only authentically American art (and in its finest exponents, is now considered by many to be "high art" and hence HT/cerebral/esoteric/etc., the incontrovertible proof of which is the reflexive dislike in which it is held by the average teen ).

About the maturation of art forms, the other side of the coin is the loss of vigor and the decline into effete self-indulgence.

Take twentieth century “classical” music, for instance (please). Evidently the composers of the previous two centuries exhausted the world’s supply of euphony, leaving the modern maestros to experiment with music that -- well -- sounds bad. (Their experiments worked! ) Modern sculpture is another “art” that escapes ridicule only because of the Emperor’s New Clothes syndrome. (Well, it doesn't escape altogether.)

But this wasn't always the case. A music that started with the poor and the colored, to the use the term of the time, and probably with more rudimentary techniques, and enjoyed a phase in which it was the rock music for an earlier generation, has scaled to the higher rungs of the HT ladder. What's revealing, though, is that it took a century to achieve this, and will require yet more time to reach HT empyrean (although it will, I believe, eventually get there).

There are, I suggest, some real parallels with skating. Like jazz (and the British Empire), skating's artistry was perhaps 'acquired in a fit of absent mindedness' (when people watched Janet Lynn and started to wonder: "hmmm, I actually quite enjoyed that... why didn't she win?" Vox populi vox dei.).

IMHO, where skating sometimes goes wrong is in its nouveau insecurity. Like a Victorian lady's maid striving to acquire an instant patina of caste by aping the decolletage of her mistress, I often feel that skating is overly concerned with hewing to the conventions of older, more established artistic disciplines such as ballet. My gripe is not against borrowing as such (actually, the practice has always been rife in all the arts, including ballet), but rather against the conviction among some that wholesale adoption is de rigueur and does not admit of choice in the matter.

As in the case of the aforementioned domestic (who, so I've been told, later got a job in a typing pool, demonstrated her intelligence and spunk, rose to CEO and started buying haute couture to her own taste), I predict that figure skating, having acquired a taste for artistry as an intentional project, will continue to evolve, gradually and organically developing its own set of conventions and, eventually, mature. In some ways, I think we are lucky to be able to watch skating in its period of change; artistic maturity has its own issues, including the real prospect of hieratic stagnation. So let's not be too hard on it for deficiencies in HT during its growing pains.

The potential spanner in the works is always the fooling around with the rules. Whether or not the current rules regime represents the ideal balance of sport and art, I'm of the mind that it nevertheless maintains enough space for at least the possibility of meaningful artistic performance. If, however, skating begins to swing too far to the technical (eg the school figures era) or too often, the evolution of skating aesthetics will be stunted, and may even suffer an extinction event.

I think jazz has already had its extinction event (Miles Davis died in 1991). Now jazz has drifted off into “fusion” and other watered-down species of the genus “not-jazz.”

The other question is, which do you like best, the playful youth of an art form (Louis Armstrong, as represented by the toe-tapping Hot Fives and Hot Sevens recordings), the secure mastery of adulthood (Dizzy Gillespie, the Plushenko of the jazz trumpet ), or the reflective wisdom of maturity (Miles). (Louis Armstrong complained about bebop – “But who’s playing the melody?” ))

Personally, I like the sprightly and tuneful symphonies of Haydn much better than, say, the grand, loud works that Mahler wrote for the 150-piece orchestra (no offense to Virtue and Moir ). Plus, Haydn's symphonies are shorter.

 

[skfan]

OK, having fortified myself by looking up Rochefoucauld and Fontaine on Wikipedia, I now feel prepared to take up my end of the conversation.



About the maturation of art forms, the other side of the coin is the loss of vigor and the decline into effete self-indulgence.

Take twentieth century “classical” music, for instance (please). Evidently the composers of the previous two centuries exhausted the world’s supply of euphony, leaving the modern maestros to experiment with music that -- well -- sounds bad. (Their experiments worked! ) Modern sculpture is another “art” that escapes ridicule only because of the Emperor’s New Clothes syndrome. (Well, it doesn't escape altogether.)



I think jazz has already had its extinction event (Miles Davis died in 1991). Now jazz has drifted off into “fusion” and other watered-down species of the genus “not-jazz.”

The other question is, which do you like best, the playful youth of an art form (Louis Armstrong, as represented by the toe-tapping Hot Fives and Hot Sevens recordings), the secure mastery of adulthood (Dizzy Gillespie, the Plushenko of the jazz trumpet ), or the reflective wisdom of maturity (Miles). (Louis Armstrong complained about bebop – “But who’s playing the melody?” ))

Personally, I like the sprightly and tuneful symphonies of Haydn much better than, say, the grand, loud works that Mahler wrote for the 150-piece orchestra (no offense to Virtue and Moir ). Plus, Haydn's symphonies are shorter.

all right, am i gonna need more letters after my name to keep reading golden skate? you're gonna make me pay to post on FSU now, you have brought hoity-toity to a new level ;p

coming to a computer screen near you, the latest version of GS. for Ph D's only (does ABD count?)

for me, i like jazz where i can still detect a melody, ballet dancers who don't over-act, and mozart.


happy birthday to mathman, doris, seniorita and everybody whose name i've forgotten in my senility.

 

[Mathman]

...younger fans than I see some sort of Grande Art which I do not.

I think you are tilting at windmills, Joe. I do not see a single post, on this thread or any other, by any poster young or old, saying that figure skating is a Grande Art.

I think what people are saying is that it is enjoyable to see skaters moving gracefully to pretty music, along with their feats of derring-do.

all right, am i gonna need more letters after my name to keep reading golden skate? you're gonna make me pay to post on FSU now, you have brought hoity-toity to a new level

Are you saying my posts are phony-balony?

Avctually, I am trying to keep up as best I can, typing with one hand while thumbing franctically through the dictctionary with the other. Right now i'm stuck on "postmodern constructivism," as referenced a couple of pages back.

 

[seniorita]

Happy Birthday to you. too, Seniorita. (Seniorita, Doris and I -- and Akiko -- all have the same birthday.)

Thank you I found out that my neighbor next door has also birthday today, she is not as famous as Akiko though

There's no way a gymnast could use a piece such as Gershwin's Piano Concerto in F for a floor exercise.)

On the other hand I think there are times you watch a skater´s program and because the magical music carries you away, you think it is artistic and beautiful while the music does most of the work (I m not talking for Gershwin´s music or a specific skater) gymnasts have to be really good to carry you away with the music, the routine of the girls are 90 secs and it is less time than an Lp, you need to be more precise with the timing and your jumps cause you cannot save it later in the program..

I haven't followed the conversation much(TOO MANY UNKNOWN WORDS LATELY ) , but I think if I want to Art I l choose the Paris Opera(par example), skating for me is mostly a sport( my simple thinking is that without the music it would still be a sport, without the technical requirements it is not), that demands strength, rythm and grace and happens to enchant me more (much more) than ..golf.

what is campy? And many more phrases I cant even spell!

 

[Mathman]

I will miss Akiko at the WC. :scowl:

Isn't it strange that several of the best skaters in the world are not allowed to compete at what is called a WC?

That feels more like a pageant type rule and does not seem very sporting.

If the ISU wants skating to be more like a real sport they might follow the model of other sports like tennis and golf that don't deny top 10 competitors a shot at the biggest event of the season.

I agree with this assessment (although as gkelly points out, figuring out what can be done about it is another story).

In the Miss Universe contest, each country has its own championship and sends the winner to the big show. If the second runner-up in the Miss Turkey contest is prettier than Miss Belize, that's the way it goes and too bad for Miss Bronze Turkey.

On the other hand, I agree with BigSisJiji, that the blow is softened by allowing some countries send two of three competitors if they are strong enough. Japan number four doesn't get to go, but Japan number three (Kanako) does, where she will have the chance to show that she is better than Miss Peru.

I do not see any possibiltity of having a truly open champioship under the present orgnization of the ISU. The members of the ISU are not suddenly going to cede all power to the administration.

 

[mot]

Some of my favourites are not going to the Worlds - e.g. Akiko and Jeremy - because there are a limited number of spots given to their countries, and I am hugely disappointed. But at the same time, I am very much looking forward to seeing some lesser known skaters from all over the world for the first time. Let's face it, I saw Akiko and Jeremy perform at GPS and the Nationals and the FCC, but I don't even have a clue what programme those lesser known skaters are skating this season. These skaters may not be as strong, as skilled, as elegant, etc, but they can be entertaining, charming, unique, and fresh.

Surely, I cannot be the only one who's going to be glued to the PC from the very first skater of the day? For example, I discovered Cheltzie Lee a few years ago when she skated at the Worlds and waited a year to see her again, and another year, but I am delighted I have been witnessing how much she has improved in those years! For me, that's one of the joys of watching the championships - discovering young talent, the future of figure skating. I tremendously enjoyed watching the Asian Winter Games this year on line - it was wonderful to know there is a skater representing Mongolia and to discover that the North Korean pair were actually a joy to watch! I am actually gutted that I won't even see many lesser known skaters this year because the qualification round will not be broadcast.

Another point we need to consider is how many top skaters of the day started off as those lucky ones who skated at the championships because of their fellow skaters' result the year before, and used that opportunities to grow. It's not that easy just to turn up at the championship for the first time and perform. It often takes years of trying, trying and trying, before one can reach their potential.

I agree with bigsisjiejie and I would also call / treat the World Championships a 'sport festival'. It is an occasion to celebrate the sport, watch the very best and cheer for the less so. Many lesser known skaters representing smaller / less successful federations are the ones who are showing their own country people how wonderful figure skating is. They are like missionaries, perhaps? I must thank Tuğba Karademir for her appearances in the Worlds and the Olympics, even though her results were incomparable to those of the top skaters; without her, figure skating may not have been as popular in Turkey and then I would not have been able to watch some competitions on Turkish feed!

And finally ...

Happy Birthday to you. too, Seniorita. (Seniorita, Doris and I -- and Akiko -- all have the same birthday.)

Happy birthday to Seniorita. I can't even start to count how many times your post made me smile.

 

[janetfan]

I agree with this assessment (although as gkelly points out, figuring out what can be done about it is another story).

In the Miss Universe contest, each country has its own championship and sends the winner to the big show. If the second runner-up in the Miss Turkey contest is prettier than Miss Belize, that's the way it goes and too bad for Miss Bronze Turkey.

On the other hand, I agree with BigSisJiji, that the blow is softened by allowing some countries send two of three competitors if they are strong enough. Japan number four doesn't get to go, but Japan number three (Kanako) does, where she will have the chance to show that she is better than Miss Peru.

I do not see any possibiltity of having a truly open champioship under the present orgnization of the ISU. The members of the ISU are not suddenly going to cede all power to the administration.

I didn't mean to suggest I know the answer or have a better idea, but I do know when something has a problem that needs to be fixed.

There were a few examples given earlier and I would say the GP, Euros and 4cc could count for more.

By that I suggest any skater who medals at the the GP, Euros or 4CC could be given a slot at the World championship in addition to the existing federation slots

We could even think of it as a wildcard if that soothes a few devotees to the outdated selection process we see now from ISU.

I can look back at wildcards in major tennis tournaments and fondly recall how Jimmy Connors and Boris Becker not only made the championship better but remember how they electrified the crowds/TV viewers.

The difference I see here is that tennis is smart and skating is dumb.

Skating needs to think more about the fans and sponsers if it wants to do better and get past being a niche sport in the West. Asia is a little bit different as they don't have a long history in the sport the way N. Americans and Europeans do.

What does that last statement mean?

My point is that if Russia was not hosting the Olympics in 2014 I serioulsy doubt if Putin would have wanted to "bail out" the ISU by hosting Worlds next month.

We all know that in addition to the selction process flaws the "sport" of figure skating is not run my the most upstanding or visionary group of people on the planet. Favors and more favors are part of the deal not only in winning hosting assignments but in the very way podiums have been known turn out. :scowl:

You get what you reap. Follow the money and make sure you can always afford bandaids
is what ISU's approach to overseeing figure skating feels like to me at times.

 

[skfan]

Some of my favourites are not going to the Worlds - e.g. Akiko and Jeremy - because there are a limited number of spots given to their countries, and I am hugely disappointed. But at the same time, I am very much looking forward to seeing some lesser known skaters from all over the world for the first time. Let's face it, I saw Akiko and Jeremy perform at GPS and the Nationals and the FCC, but I don't even have a clue what programme those lesser known skaters are skating this season. These skaters may not be as strong, as skilled, as elegant, etc, but they can be entertaining, charming, unique, and fresh.

Surely, I cannot be the only one who's going to be glued to the PC from the very first skater of the day? For example, I discovered Cheltzie Lee a few years ago when she skated at the Worlds and waited a year to see her again, and another year, but I am delighted I have been witnessing how much she has improved in those years! For me, that's one of the joys of watching the championships - discovering young talent, the future of figure skating. I tremendously enjoyed watching the Asian Winter Games this year on line - it was wonderful to know there is a skater representing Mongolia and to discover that the North Korean pair were actually a joy to watch! I am actually gutted that I won't even see many lesser known skaters this year because the qualification round will not be broadcast.

Another point we need to consider is how many top skaters of the day started off as those lucky ones who skated at the championships because of their fellow skaters' result the year before, and used that opportunities to grow. It's not that easy just to turn up at the championship for the first time and perform. It often takes years of trying, trying and trying, before one can reach their potential.

I agree with bigsisjiejie and I would also call / treat the World Championships a 'sport festival'. It is an occasion to celebrate the sport, watch the very best and cheer for the less so. Many lesser known skaters representing smaller / less successful federations are the ones who are showing their own country people how wonderful figure skating is. They are like missionaries, perhaps? I must thank Tuğba Karademir for her appearances in the Worlds and the Olympics, even though her results were incomparable to those of the top skaters; without her, figure skating may not have been as popular in Turkey and then I would not have been able to watch some competitions on Turkish feed!

And finally ...



Happy birthday to Seniorita. I can't even start to count how many times your post made me smile.

this is such a beautiful perspective. back in the day when people were still trading VHS tapes i traded with europeans because eurosport showed everybody, and the skaters i tended to like barely make the long program cut LOL now i can't even count on seeing the US ladies champion skating her worlds short program on the big american networks, but hey, now there's yeonah and mao, so... uh, i guess it all balances out... ^_^