Jackson Ultima Matrix Supreme blades - opinions/reviews wanted!

[LolaSkatesInJapan]

Hello,

Does anyone here use Jackson Ultima Matrix Supreme blades, especially those of you who switched to it from JW blades, and if so, I would love to hear your opinions, reviews, experiences with them.
------------
BACKSTORY (made short)- One of the teams at my rink (not mine, other ladies coached by another coach) mass switched from their past blades (Coronation Ace, Coronation Ace light, Gold Seal, Gold Seal Rev and so on) to Jackson Ultima Matrix Supreme blades (apparetnly the stainless steel used in them it's a Japanese stainless steel, high quality). They all imported them at the same time, received them, had them mounted, tested them out and 100% of them say that the switch to this blade from their previous blade was the best thing that happened in their skating lives, they're incredibly happy and these blades are way better to skate on than the JW blades they previously had. I was very curious and made sure to "interview" all of them and the reply was along the same lines.
-------------
Personally I'm satisfied with my Coronation Ace blades, have no intention of switching right now, nor my coaches or our team they coach have said anything about any mass switching (ladies in my team have either Coronation Ace, Coronation Ace light, or Gold Seal, or Pattern 99, Rev or no Rev, same as the other team had), but now this has left me REALLY curious and wanting to know opinions/reviews/experiences from other skaters besides my rink's skaters regarding these allegedly miraculous Jackson Ultima Matrix Supreme blades by these skaters, are the bestest thing and make skating much better.

Thank you very much in advance!

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Hello,

Does anyone here use Jackson Ultima Matrix Supreme blades, especially those of you who switched to it from JW blades, and if so, I would love to hear your opinions, reviews, experiences with them.
------------
BACKSTORY (made short)- One of the teams at my rink (not mine, other ladies coached by another coach) mass switched from their past blades (Coronation Ace, Coronation Ace light, Gold Seal, Gold Seal Rev and so on) to Jackson Ultima Matrix Supreme blades (apparetnly the stainless steel used in them it's a Japanese stainless steel, high quality). They all imported them at the same time, received them, had them mounted, tested them out and 100% of them say that the switch to this blade from their previous blade was the best thing that happened in their skating lives, they're incredibly happy and these blades are way better to skate on than the JW blades they previously had. I was very curious and made sure to "interview" all of them and the reply was along the same lines.
-------------
Personally I'm satisfied with my Coronation Ace blades, have no intention of switching right now, nor my coaches or our team they coach have said anything about any mass switching (ladies in my team have either Coronation Ace, Coronation Ace light, or Gold Seal, or Pattern 99, Rev or no Rev, same as the other team had), but now this has left me REALLY curious and wanting to know opinions/reviews/experiences from other skaters besides my rink's skaters regarding these allegedly miraculous Jackson Ultima Matrix Supreme blades by these skaters, are the bestest thing and make skating much better.

Thank you very much in advance!

No thanks. I've worn/tested most to all blades and even tried to compete in those at one point. They aren't going to be any better than the traditional blades, they may get a bit more time b/t sharpenings but otherwise they don't have a great rocker (not better or like the traditional one on the JW or even MK's). And they're a pain to get properly maintained and sharpened b/c the tech has to know what they are doing and have a special jig to sharpen them.

The group that switched in bulk might have gotten a deal through the coach from the blade rep. That is the only reason I can see them moving in bulk to a blade so quickly. They're also more advanced so I can't understand why everyone in the group who previously had varied levels of blades switched; again thinking rep gave them a deal in bulk.

 

[LolaSkatesInJapan]

No thanks. I've worn/tested most to all blades and even tried to compete in those at one point. They aren't going to be any better than the traditional blades, they may get a bit more time b/t sharpenings but otherwise they don't have a great rocker (not better or like the traditional one on the JW or even MK's). And they're a pain to get properly maintained and sharpened b/c the tech has to know what they are doing and have a special jig to sharpen them.

The group that switched in bulk might have gotten a deal through the coach from the blade rep. That is the only reason I can see them moving in bulk to a blade so quickly. They're also more advanced so I can't understand why everyone in the group who previously had varied levels of blades switched; again thinking rep gave them a deal in bulk.

Thank you for the reply @Ic3Rabbit

Regarding skating levels, the team has 3 ladies who can't jump yet, 4 who are around the same level as me (have all singles including axel, can land one double) and 3 who are better/more advanced than me.

I asked them where they bought it (the shop everyone from the rink goes to "Ice Space" doesn't sell them, they sell Edea blades for complete beginners, then the JW blades, all of them) and they said they bought online from a shop in Australia
All of them, regardless of level, say it's way better than what they previously had

Again, I use Coronation Aces and right now I don't see the need to change, and my coaches haven't said anything, but the other girls changing all together and all of them loving the new blade so much got me VERY curious about this blade.

EDITED: Forgot to add... when asked why they think the Jackson blade is better than the JW, they say it's lighter, it glides much better and it's made with Japanese stainless steel ('we're in Japan )

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Thank you for the reply @Ic3Rabbit

Regarding skating levels, the team has 3 ladies who can't jump yet, 4 who are around the same level as me (have all singles including axel, can land one double) and 3 who are better/more advanced than me.

I asked them where they bought it (the shop everyone from the rink goes to "Ice Space" doesn't sell them, they sell Edea blades for complete beginners, then the JW blades, all of them) and they said they bought online from a shop in Australia
All of them, regardless of level, say it's way better than what they previously had

Again, I use Coronation Aces and right now I don't see the need to change, and my coaches haven't said anything, but the other girls changing all together and all of them loving the new blade so much got me VERY curious about this blade.

EDITED: Forgot to add... when asked why they think the Jackson blade is better than the JW, they say it's lighter, it glides much better and it's made with Japanese stainless steel ('we're in Japan )

They're a very mediocre blade. In my experience skating often is more scratchy with them due to the rocker + toepick combination. You can skate well with them, but you CAN skate well with almost any blade - that doesnt make them good or useful for that purpose. I like the stainless steel not rusting, but this particular type used in matrix blade chipped very easily for me.

I assume the group that switch might have also gone from old blades to brand new blades as well, which can sometimes make a difference. The weight difference in the grand scheme of things isn't that important or influential, and honestly just not a really pleasant blade to skate on, and I'd take a gold seal any day over it.

 

[LolaSkatesInJapan]

Thank you for your review @kolyadafan2002 !

So far, no positive reviews of this blade here.
Japanese stainless steel knives (cooking knives) are famous worldwide and quite expensive as well, but I wonder if the material gives the same quality/performance for skating blades?

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Thank you for your review @kolyadafan2002 !

So far, no positive reviews of this blade here.
Japanese stainless steel knives (cooking knives) are famous worldwide and quite expensive as well, but I wonder if the material gives the same quality/performance for skating blades?

Jackson uses 420J grade stainless. Eclipse/skatescience (also stainless steel) uses 440C. 440C has much better hardness, wear and life due to higher carbon content. Most top range Japanese knives will be 440c I'd imagine vs the lower grade jackson stainless.

Secondly, it's not just about the material. Jackson blades have a big toepick without a pronounced rocker, so when hitting the "sweet spot" often you ride the toepick a little bit, reducing quality of skating. You can use whatever material you want, the blade design isn't well-thought through. And they can say what they want, but its not an accurate copy of a gold seal blade profile and doesn't feel anything like gold seals.

 

[LolaSkatesInJapan]

Yours and ic3rabbit's reviews sound very solid to me, as someone who's never skated in this blade, but after seeing all of them in practice today, I came home and saw the blade's photo very up close from the Jackson's website, it seems quite flat to me. I love spinning (and I couldn't help wondering it looks harder to spin on this blade, no matter what they're saying, I never catch my toe pick while spinning on my coronation aces), but I love jumping much more and also wondered if that toe pick is the reason for all the love this blade is getting close to me, but girls who can't even jump are loving it too, so I understand nothing.

 

[High Carbon]

Hello,

Does anyone here use Jackson Ultima Matrix Supreme blades, especially those of you who switched to it from JW blades, and if so, I would love to hear your opinions, reviews, experiences with them.
------------
BACKSTORY (made short)- One of the teams at my rink (not mine, other ladies coached by another coach) mass switched from their past blades (Coronation Ace, Coronation Ace light, Gold Seal, Gold Seal Rev and so on) to Jackson Ultima Matrix Supreme blades (apparetnly the stainless steel used in them it's a Japanese stainless steel, high quality). They all imported them at the same time, received them, had them mounted, tested them out and 100% of them say that the switch to this blade from their previous blade was the best thing that happened in their skating lives, they're incredibly happy and these blades are way better to skate on than the JW blades they previously had. I was very curious and made sure to "interview" all of them and the reply was along the same lines.
-------------
Personally I'm satisfied with my Coronation Ace blades, have no intention of switching right now, nor my coaches or our team they coach have said anything about any mass switching (ladies in my team have either Coronation Ace, Coronation Ace light, or Gold Seal, or Pattern 99, Rev or no Rev, same as the other team had), but now this has left me REALLY curious and wanting to know opinions/reviews/experiences from other skaters besides my rink's skaters regarding these allegedly miraculous Jackson Ultima Matrix Supreme blades by these skaters, are the bestest thing and make skating much better.

Thank you very much in advance!

Hello! I think I have some information that may help. I myself have skated in Matrix Supremes for a long time and many great skaters including Amber Glenn and Jason Brown skate in Matrix Supremes as well. They're a very good blade that I highly recommend. They're analogous to John Wilson Gold Seals. I haven't been in any John Wilsons myself yet, however if I switch then I would only go to Gold Seal. John Wilson and MK blades are made of a high quality high carbon steel (1050 I believe) sourced from Germany. Ultima blades source their steel from Taiwan. I don't know if their stainless steel runners for the Matrix blades also come from Taiwan or elsewhere but it is a high quality stainless steel. I think from a CA you can reasonably switch up to a GS when you feel ready, but if you wanted a Jackson equivalent then the Supreme is the way to go. Just remember the pros and cons of stainless steel versus carbon steel. Stainless won't rust as easy and typically hold their edge longer, but if you damage the edge you're most likely to chip the blade and lose material as it's a harder, more brittle material. Carbon steel is much more forgiving, especially to impact. The edge will roll before it chips but it is susceptible to rust and generally won't hold an edge for quite as long. Essentially John Wilson has been in the business longer and has nearly perfected its metallurgy, but Ultima is a titan when it comes to high quality light weight blades with their Matrix series.
Hope this information helps!

 

[tstop4me]

Jackson uses 420J grade stainless. Eclipse/skatescience (also stainless steel) uses 440C. 440C has much better hardness, wear and life due to higher carbon content. Most top range Japanese knives will be 440c I'd imagine vs the lower grade jackson stainless.

Jackson uses 420J stainless steel only for the intermediate Matrix Legacy blades. I've found references in the steel literature to a 420J1 and a 420J2 alloy; don't know which one Jackson uses. For their advanced Matrix blades, including the Matrix Supreme, however, they use Japanese AUS 8 stainless steel. But the final properties (such as hardness, toughness, edge retention, wear resistance, sharpenability, ...) of a metal alloy depend not only on the initial composition, but also on the specific thermal and mechanical processing that a specific blade manufacturer uses. There are several reviews of the pluses and minuses of AUS 8 vs 440C for knives. Properly processed, AUS 8 appears to be comparable in many respects to 440C; at the very least, it is definitely superior to 420J. Note, however, that the new Wilson Phoenix blades use an unspecified "420 variant", not a 440 variant.

Top range Japanese kitchen knives likely will not use 440C, but proprietary Japanese formulations. These would not be suitable for skate blades, however, because they are extremely hard, making them prone to chipping. That is, if you are filleting fish for sushi, you don't need to worry about edge chipping that much. But figure skating is more demanding if you are landing jumps: you then need to worry about impact strength and edge chipping.

And note, to take full advantage of harder and tougher steels, you need a tech who knows how to sharpen them properly.

 

[tstop4me]

Personally I'm satisfied with my Coronation Ace blades, have no intention of switching right now, nor my coaches or our team they coach have said anything about any mass switching (ladies in my team have either Coronation Ace, Coronation Ace light, or Gold Seal, or Pattern 99, Rev or no Rev, same as the other team had), but now this has left me REALLY curious and wanting to know opinions/reviews/experiences from other skaters besides my rink's skaters regarding these allegedly miraculous Jackson Ultima Matrix Supreme blades by these skaters, are the bestest thing and make skating much better.

I find it suspicious that different skaters started out with with different blades with different designs (different radii of main rockers, different spin rocker profiles, different pick patterns, different tail lengths, different stanchion heights, ...), and yet ALL of them instantly found the same blade, Matrix Supreme, to be superior to what they had.

 

[WednesdayMarch]

Might be worth remembering that people who invest in expensive equipment rarely admit when they have made a mistake.

 

[tstop4me]

Stainless won't rust as easy and typically hold their edge longer, but if you damage the edge you're most likely to chip the blade and lose material as it's a harder, more brittle material. Carbon steel is much more forgiving, especially to impact. The edge will roll before it chips but it is susceptible to rust and generally won't hold an edge for quite as long.

I'll nitpick with you a bit on this. It's not that simple. Hardness and resistance to chipping vary a lot depending on the alloy composition and on the specific thermal and mechanical treatment. One of the hardest and most brittle steels is plain carbon steel when processed as untempered martensite; it behaves more like a ceramic than a metal in some respects. I still vividly remember a demo a professor gave: he clamped one end of a bar in a bench vise, and whacked the other end with a hammer. The bar did not bend the way way you would expect a steel bar to; it shattered instead.

With proper alloy composition and proper thermal and mechanical processing, you can produce stainless steel with high hardness and high toughness, leading to both high abrasion resistance and high impact resistance.

 

[tstop4me]

Might be worth remembering that people who invest in expensive equipment rarely admit when they have made a mistake.

Or maybe an analog of mass hysteria?

 

[LolaSkatesInJapan]

Hello! I think I have some information that may help. I myself have skated in Matrix Supremes for a long time and many great skaters including Amber Glenn and Jason Brown skate in Matrix Supremes as well. They're a very good blade that I highly recommend. They're analogous to John Wilson Gold Seals. I haven't been in any John Wilsons myself yet, however if I switch then I would only go to Gold Seal. John Wilson and MK blades are made of a high quality high carbon steel (1050 I believe) sourced from Germany. Ultima blades source their steel from Taiwan. I don't know if their stainless steel runners for the Matrix blades also come from Taiwan or elsewhere but it is a high quality stainless steel. I think from a CA you can reasonably switch up to a GS when you feel ready, but if you wanted a Jackson equivalent then the Supreme is the way to go. Just remember the pros and cons of stainless steel versus carbon steel. Stainless won't rust as easy and typically hold their edge longer, but if you damage the edge you're most likely to chip the blade and lose material as it's a harder, more brittle material. Carbon steel is much more forgiving, especially to impact. The edge will roll before it chips but it is susceptible to rust and generally won't hold an edge for quite as long. Essentially John Wilson has been in the business longer and has nearly perfected its metallurgy, but Ultima is a titan when it comes to high quality light weight blades with their Matrix series.
Hope this information helps!

Thank you very much for the detailed review!
I just bought new boots and blades in March and I bought the exact same boots (Edea Concerto) and blades (Coronation Ace) as I had previously, since these serve me well (I have a recent issue with pain on my toe bone, but it was established it's something I did, not the fault of my equipment and I'm waiting to heal), but in the future when I'm ready for another upgrade, I will keep this blade in mind and discuss it with my coaches For now it's just mere curiosity now seeing another team using it

 

[LolaSkatesInJapan]

I find it suspicious that different skaters started out with with different blades with different designs (different radii of main rockers, different spin rocker profiles, different pick patterns, different tail lengths, different stanchion heights, ...), and yet ALL of them instantly found the same blade, Matrix Supreme, to be superior to what they had.

Suspicious? I don't understand.
Since I personally never skated in this blade and don't know it, I wanted to hear opinions from other skaters besides the ones I see in person almost every day at the rink. If they all love it, I think it's great for them, yes? They wouldn't have all changed equipment without the coaches consent. And they only started skating in their new blades this week, maybe later some of them might miss their old blade

 

[LolaSkatesInJapan]

Might be worth remembering that people who invest in expensive equipment rarely admit when they have made a mistake.

I'm always angry when I buy something and it's not good for me, no matter the price, and even more angry that I need to waste time going to buy a replacement of the thing I thought it was going to be great

 

[tstop4me]

Suspicious? I don't understand.
Since I personally never skated in this blade and don't know it, I wanted to hear opinions from other skaters besides the ones I see in person almost every day at the rink. If they all love it, I think it's great for them, yes? They wouldn't have all changed equipment without the coaches consent. And they only started skating in their new blades this week, maybe later some of them might miss their old blade

First, I want to emphasize that I am using "suspicious" not in reference to your post, but in reference to the unanimous strongly positive reviews reported to you by the team. "Suspicious" in the sense that something doesn't seem right, something is amiss, something else is going on.

In contrast, here's another blade story for you. Riedell introduced a nominal copy of the Coronation Ace called the Eclipse Aurora. Traditional construction (not lightweight chassis + runner). About the same price in the US (depends on the market and exchange rates). Big plus: fabricated from 440C stainless steel instead of plain carbon steel, with the touted advantages of rust free (under normal skating and storage conditions) and longer edge life. I had skated for a long time on Coronation Ace. When it came time for a replacement, I decided to go with the Aurora. Then I found out it had a somewhat flatter spin rocker. I otherwise loved the blade and allowed time to adjust. But in the end, the spin rocker was a no-go for me, and I ditched the blades.

I met another skater who had also switched from Coronation Ace to Aurora. She told me that after a bit of adjustment, they were fine. And the advantages of the stainless steel made them a keeper. A little while later, I met another skater with Auroras. She told me she loved them, especially the spin rocker. Turns out she had upgraded from an Aspire XP, which has a relatively flat spin rocker.

These responses, ranging from positive to neutral to negative are what I would expect.

Here's a non-skating story, a hypo. An international conference meets in Japan. A Japanese host invites a group of colleagues to a bar. He asks them what their favorite drink is. They answer: beer, wine, rum, whisky, gin, vodka, .... The host proclaims, "We're in Japan. I will treat you all to the finest sake." After they have finished the sake, the host asks them, "Do you prefer this sake over your usual favorite drink?" They all answer unanimously a resounding, "Yes!"

A plausible response? Or is something else going on? Maybe they don't want to offend their host?

 

[LolaSkatesInJapan]

First, I want to emphasize that I am using "suspicious" not in reference to your post, but in reference to the unanimous strongly positive reviews reported to you by the team. "Suspicious" in the sense that something doesn't seem right, something is amiss, something else is going on.

In contrast, here's another blade story for you. Riedell introduced a nominal copy of the Coronation Ace called the Eclipse Aurora. Traditional construction (not lightweight chassis + runner). About the same price in the US (depends on the market and exchange rates). Big plus: fabricated from 440C stainless steel instead of plain carbon steel, with the touted advantages of rust free (under normal skating and storage conditions) and longer edge life. I had skated for a long time on Coronation Ace. When it came time for a replacement, I decided to go with the Aurora. Then I found out it had a somewhat flatter spin rocker. I otherwise loved the blade and allowed time to adjust. But in the end, the spin rocker was a no-go for me, and I ditched the blades.

I met another skater who had also switched from Coronation Ace to Aurora. She told me that after a bit of adjustment, they were fine. And the advantages of the stainless steel made them a keeper. A little while later, I met another skater with Auroras. She told me she loved them, especially the spin rocker. Turns out she had upgraded from an Aspire XP, which has a relatively flat spin rocker.

These responses, ranging from positive to neutral to negative are what I would expect.

Here's a non-skating story, a hypo. An international conference meets in Japan. A Japanese host invites a group of colleagues to a bar. He asks them what their favorite drink is. They answer: beer, wine, rum, whisky, gin, vodka, .... The host proclaims, "We're in Japan. I will treat you all to the finest sake." After they have finished the sake, the host asks them, "Do you prefer this sake over your usual favorite drink?" They all answer unanimously a resounding, "Yes!"

A plausible response? Or is something else going on? Maybe they don't want to offend their host?

Point VERY well taken.

There's a concept here of honne (the truth, what you really think,feel, want aka-honesty, but unfortunately you do not express publicly) and tatemae (the absolutely opposite of honme aka = lie, dishonesty, but you do often because ??? - after years living here I still have no idea why they do that.) Here is a good article about it http://www.ageekinjapan.com/honne-and-tatemae/

No matter how many years you live here you don't get used to it, especially if you come from a culture that is brutally honest and your family taught you since a little kid that lying is wrong and you should always be honest and say the truth no matter what, if they don't like it it's their problem, not yours for being honest, like I come.

Anyways, sorry for the off topic talk, but yes, see? I fell for it again, I think. Again, no matter how many years I live here I can't get used to tatemae, don't use it, ask whoever deals with me to not use it either, when I hired both figure skating coaches, I asked them please, always be HONEST, strict and critic with me, no tatemae like they use with some adult skaters you clearly see they suck but the coach say they're wonderful so not to lose business and make the client happy - they won't do this with athlethes and kids with hopes to go pro, so I did my research of coaches in this rink and I chose one who's lived and gone to many countries, so she's very open minded, and chose another who is the scary and not afraid to tell you you suck until you don't suck anymore for all, adults included (majority of adult who only want fun, not that serious and only come 1 or 2 times a week don't choose this coach because she makes you cry until you are good then she'll praise you and you can believe her.

Again, going on topic again, I think you're absolutely right and I feel embarassed I fell for it, AGAIN. It's very feasible this blade thing was the idea of their coach, he's always so friendly and smiling at them, and they don't want to tell the truth to him or anyone else. <insert facepalm>

Oh, and only to let you know, sake (in Japanese 酒) = ALCOHOL (the word sake/酒 means alcohol) so beer is sake, whisky is sake, rum is sake, gin is sake and so is vodka! . They produce beer here but it's a bit too bitter for me and produce all other alcohols, so it's a matter of which one is your favorite and which brand of it you like. Too bad the guys couldn't tell the truth!

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

I find it suspicious that different skaters started out with with different blades with different designs (different radii of main rockers, different spin rocker profiles, different pick patterns, different tail lengths, different stanchion heights, ...), and yet ALL of them instantly found the same blade, Matrix Supreme, to be superior to what they had.

I felt the same way but didn't feel like arguing the point lol!

 

[High Carbon]

Jackson uses 420J stainless steel only for the intermediate Matrix Legacy blades. I've found references in the steel literature to a 420J1 and a 420J2 alloy; don't know which one Jackson uses. For their advanced Matrix blades, including the Matrix Supreme, however, they use Japanese AUS 8 stainless steel. But the final properties (such as hardness, toughness, edge retention, wear resistance, sharpenability, ...) of a metal alloy depend not only on the initial composition, but also on the specific thermal and mechanical processing that a specific blade manufacturer uses. There are several reviews of the pluses and minuses of AUS 8 vs 440C for knives. Properly processed, AUS 8 appears to be comparable in many respects to 440C; at the very least, it is definitely superior to 420J. Note, however, that the new Wilson Phoenix blades use an unspecified "420 variant", not a 440 variant.

Top range Japanese kitchen knives likely will not use 440C, but proprietary Japanese formulations. These would not be suitable for skate blades, however, because they are extremely hard, making them prone to chipping. That is, if you are filleting fish for sushi, you don't need to worry about edge chipping that much. But figure skating is more demanding if you are landing jumps: you then need to worry about impact strength and edge chipping.

And note, to take full advantage of harder and tougher steels, you need a tech who knows how to sharpen them properly.

That's interesting, I didn't realize their Supremes used a Japanese steel! Their aluminum chasses are definitely from Taiwan but I was unsure of their steel. I asked about the alloy the Phoenixes are made of and it looks like Wilson is keeping that a close secret. Where did you get your information on which steels are used in which blades? Is it published anywhere or did you just ask the Jackson reps?