Jessica Dubé ready to say that she retired due to bulimia

[CoyoteChris]

If you have the time to read Le Journal de Montréal series (it is in French, but that's why Google translate exists ) please do. All the skaters talk about coaches, spectators, people in the skating world telling them they looked "fat". About the fear and hatred of weigh-ins.

In the "Men's" thread, there is a link to a podcast with Sean Rabbitt, where Sean talks about his family genetics being totally unfavorable to taking up skating, his own build, comments about his weight and comparisons to skaters who did not have his build, and how discouraged he was at times. He manifested in OCDC ( he called it that) in measuring food.

The good news is, Sean is now a coach, and a coach of young skaters. He says that while of course you can't ignore that skaters need to eat healthy, he also treats his skaters to "splurges" when they do well, knowing that it's a splurge and they'll be back to healthy habits.

(Actually, OT, it was fascinating how Sean combined, out of necessity, training for an elite career and coaching. I know many do it, but I enjoyed hearing details from him).

It will take this generation instead of saying, what's wrong with doing this way, that's was what was done to me, that what was done to me *was* wrong, and I won't continue it.

Sean is one of the "good guys" as my father always said. Sean's father did me a great kindness once.

 

[gliese]

Thank you for your post and this part in particular I put it in the spoiler section to be consistent with the previous post, but hope you don't mind if I discuss it here. Eating disorders can be a very private struggle, as many suffers would go to great length to hide their eating, purging, over-exercising etc. from others' observation, which makes it difficult to notice until the physical toll is no longer negligible. It also adds to the hurdles for the sufferers to open up, as there is an inherent shame in admitting you have been doing things in secret (even though it's not their fault). What's more they often might not realize what they're going through is a disorder instead of something about their ability to exert self-control. It makes me think it might be advisable to include in training programs a wellness module to educate the athletes on how to establish a healthy relationship with your body and what are some signs that you or others might be suffering from ED. It can even be something in the coaching exams. Well, at least I can dream.

This is very true. Education would very likely help prevent those who have more minor disordered habits from engaging in them at all and would certainly lessen the occurance of eating disorders in general. However, without a change in overall culture from coaches, I'm not sure how far it would go. Many people with eating disorders know exactly what they're doing as they fall into it. The education is always amazing and very needed, though, and would likely do no harm unless it accidentally spread misinformation.

 

[el henry]

Hannah Miller talks about body image and skating in Polina's latest Podcast, she starts about halfway through:

Dreams, Relocation, & Body Image (feat. Hannah Miller)

Podcast Episode · The Iron Butterfly · April 27, 2021 · 56m

podcasts.apple.com

I thought Polina had an excellent point here: that a coach saying during a session, well, to land that jump you'll need to lose some weight is not only toxic, but completely unhelpful. What is the skater going to do, lose weight during the session? No, they are going to go home and obsess about calories. Rather the coach should at least try other approaches during the session, and talk later, if absolutely necessary.

 

[CoyoteChris]

Hannah Miller talks about body image and skating in Polina's latest Podcast, she starts about halfway through:

Dreams, Relocation, & Body Image (feat. Hannah Miller)

Podcast Episode · The Iron Butterfly · April 27, 2021 · 56m

podcasts.apple.com

I thought Polina had an excellent point here: that a coach saying during a session, well, to land that jump you'll need to lose some weight is not only toxic, but completely unhelpful. What is the skater going to do, lose weight during the session? No, they are going to go home and obsess about calories. Rather the coach should at least try other approaches during the session, and talk later, if absolutely necessary.

Wow...heavy stuff. All the best to Hannah. I have to now go and take a Barbie doll and smash it to pieces with a sledge hammer.

 

[[email protected]]

Competitive sports are about achievements and money. When there are too many contenders for too few goods sacrifices will be made. This is inevitable - the only radical solution is to ban competitive sports alltogether. Figure skating is not the worst of them. There are sports like boxing where people die on the ring, bobsleigh - you name them.

There are laws - like no PEDs in sports. Then there are coaching practices. Some of them may seem unfair - some of them may even have negative health consequences. But for me the key thing here is free will. Skaters and their parents should exert this free will, should be fully aware of potential health risks before making an educated decision if it is worth it. Professional athletes are paid - it's their work. Work is sometimes associated with risks. No one pushes firemen to go into fire where they can die - it's their job and they took the risk.

And when talking pairs we cannot avoid weight topic. Megan boasts that despite critique she never went on heavy diet. Good for her but... She is 4ft10 - 148 cm. What if a skater is 5ft3? It's nothing in the real world - I mean that in real life no one would ever call a 5ft3 person tall. But those 5 inch difference may be a universe for a male partner if a 5ft3 girl has the same muscular body as Megan. It's not an easy choice - to control the weight for the girl or to find a stronger boy. And no one claims that, say, in Russia only the first option is pursued.

Our world champions are exactly the case when Nastya refused to lower her weight, made Mirzoev retire and found a stronger partner.

Summing up, the world is not black and white, there are and there will be risks in competitive sports. You cannot legally overcome them without creating unfair advantages to certain types of athletes. The free will is a key. When you believe in yourself like Nastya Mishina did you can overcome all the pressure and get to the top without unhealthy sacrifices.

 

[4everchan]

When you believe in yourself like Nastya Mishina did you can overcome all the pressure and get to the top without unhealthy sacrifices.

That is exactly the point of the documentary : the environment HAS to change to allow athletes to find strength and self-belief. Some individuals can do it on their own, like Joannie Rochette. But for most, they trust their coaches, they trust the culture of the sport. It is only by speaking up and by training better coaches, who are more aware of proper and healthy ways to build athletes, that a difference can be made. For one Nastya or one Joannie, there are way too many victims of the sport's culture. It needs to get better, and Skate Canada has made tiny progress in that sense, but a lot more needs to be done.

 

[el henry]

As Sean Rabbitt said in his interview with Polina Edmunds, "Deprivation is *not* discipline".

Discipline, healthy eating, muscle mass, maintaining weight for optimum performance, of course that is necessary. Daily weigh-ins, bulimia, anorexia, starvation diets, that is never necessary.

And the skaters depend on their coaches and their parents and the culture to show them the healthy way to achieve their goals. Our sport will be better for it when they can do that unreservedly

 

[gliese]

And when talking pairs we cannot avoid weight topic. Megan boasts that despite critique she never went on heavy diet. Good for her but... She is 4ft10 - 148 cm. What if a skater is 5ft3? It's nothing in the real world - I mean that in real life no one would ever call a 5ft3 person tall. But those 5 inch difference may be a universe for a male partner if a 5ft3 girl has the same muscular body as Megan. It's not an easy choice - to control the weight for the girl or to find a stronger boy. And no one claims that, say, in Russia only the first option is pursued.

In my experience it comes down to five things: the strength of the man, the weight of the man (higher weights will enhance his strength), the strength of the woman, the weight of the woman (lower weights will make lifts easier on the man), and the couples technique. They all come into play fairly equally. I guarantee Megan still paid attention to what she ate and whether her diet was working with or against her; she just didn't crash diet which is always a good thing.

Then there are coaching practices. Some of them may seem unfair - some of them may even have negative health consequences.

Negative health consequences are one thing, but the health consequences we're talking about here actively worsen performance. No one performs their best while starving. Not to mention that starvation diets rarely work. People usually gain weight back because they're not sustainable and ruin ones metabolism.

 

[ladyjane]

Negative health consequences are one thing, but the health consequences we're talking about here actively worsen performance. No one performs their best while starving. Not to mention that starvation diets rarely work. People usually gain weight back because they're not sustainable and ruin ones metabolism.

Definitely! It's not a bad practice to take care of one's diet, and find out whether it is working for you or not. It is however to do crash diets just to lose weight, to try and change or worse, stunt, your body type or to starve and actually lose muscle power.

 

[[email protected]]

Negative health consequences are one thing, but the health consequences we're talking about here actively worsen performance. No one performs their best while starving. Not to mention that starvation diets rarely work. People usually gain weight back because they're not sustainable and ruin ones metabolism.

Just recently people brought up Eteri's school approach to weight and diet as dubious (to put it mildly). Still, after Yulia I can't remember a single case when any of her skaters had confirmed diet related issues that affected health and performance. And we are talking about a lot of skaters for a lot of years. Hence, I suppose that it's not about a specific school's approach. It is 99% stand alone cases with each time a selection of specific factors. And this also happens elsewhere sometimes with grave outcomes. Like there was a case of a Russian bodybuilder who dried herself up to death. The argument was that it was mostly about her ambitions and the lack of professionalism of her coach.

 

[gliese]

Just recently people brought up Eteri's school approach to weight and diet as dubious (to put it mildly). Still, after Yulia I can't remember a single case when any of her skaters had confirmed diet related issues that affected health and performance. And we are talking about a lot of skaters for a lot of years. Hence, I suppose that it's not about a specific school's approach. It is 99% stand alone cases with each time a selection of specific factors. And this also happens elsewhere sometimes with grave outcomes. Like there was a case of a Russian bodybuilder who dried herself up to death. The argument was that it was mostly about her ambitions and the lack of professionalism of her coach.

We don't even know if the rest of the girls crash diet, though. If they don't, then crash dieting can't affect their performance.

I know in my experience, crash dieting never helped me. It just made me weak. I lost muscle and my body fat percentage went up which was the opposite of the goal. That's the case for almost every athlete I know who crash dieted. Some got temporary good results, but most just ended up weaker. There are other ways to lose weight if there is a need for it while retaining or even gaining strength. It's simple, not easy, but simple.

Edit: As to what you said about it being stand alone cases, you are correct, however it's a coaches responsibility to make sure an athlete isn't starving themselves. In Yulia's case, it was her mother that was partially responsible plus her perfectionism. We don't know what can "prevent" eating disorders, but we do know that compassion has a higher success rate than ignorance.

 

[4everchan]

Just recently people brought up Eteri's school approach to weight and diet as dubious (to put it mildly). Still, after Yulia I can't remember a single case when any of her skaters had confirmed diet related issues that affected health and performance. And we are talking about a lot of skaters for a lot of years. Hence, I suppose that it's not about a specific school's approach. It is 99% stand alone cases with each time a selection of specific factors. And this also happens elsewhere sometimes with grave outcomes. Like there was a case of a Russian bodybuilder who dried herself up to death. The argument was that it was mostly about her ambitions and the lack of professionalism of her coach.

look, it is only now that Jessica Dubé finally opens about her eating disorders... it's not because nobody else other than Lip has mentioned anything about it in Eteri's camp (or anywhere else) that it is not happening... people are also afraid to reveal their issues as it makes them vulnerable. In my field, many musicians have injuries and never reveal them by fear of not being hired for gigs... that's a very common culture in the music industry... very few people dare to speak up... so i can imagine easily that Jessica Dubé is not the only one... she's just one of the few who have spoken up.

 

[Weathergal]

Also something to consider for both the emotional and physical impacts we're discussing is that,, in many cases here, we're talking about minors (in the U.S. under 18 - not sure if that's the same in other countries). I've read comments where posters say things like "That's his/her job, it's what he/she signed up for, it's the only way to be successful..." If we're taking that attitude toward minors in figure skating, artistic gymnastics, or any other sport for that matter, that's very troubling, to say the least.

 

[bookofcharms]

An interview with Zagitova from November 2020. However this is her retirement routine. We all know the Olympic season routine was much much stricter.

Alina Zagitova: “Now, at the age of 7, children do such things that I definitely didn’t do at this age.”

Alina Zagitova held an online training session for Puma, during which she answered questions from the fans about figure skating.

fs-gossips.com

How do you keep weight?

Alina Zagitova: In the morning I get on the scales. If there is a plus, I limit myself during the day. If the weight is ok – I eat only lunch and a little for dinner. I hardly eat breakfast. Now all phytoteachers tell me that on the contrary, I need to have breakfast. But I’m not doing this by the rules.

During the Olympic season, I almost didn’t drink water. To keep weight, I even limited myself in drinking water.

 

[4everchan]

food is fuel... this is the motto of Swimming Canada in a recent advert. I cannot believe an athlete would not eat breakfast before training.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Also drinking water is always a good idea... Dehydration is worse for athletic performance than water weight. Plus it makes the body more prone to water retention, which is kind of counterproductive.

 

[gliese]

I think another thing that's important to remember is that eating disorders don't just affect the skater when they are competing. They stay forever, even if well managed/recovered. They don't just magically go away after retirement. It takes most people a year or more to fully recover. Without treatment, 20% of people with sever eating disorders die. Most people with eating disorders don't seek treatment until at least 4 years of suffering. Many never seek treatment for their eating disorder specifically even if they do go to therapy and talk about it (which in and of itself does reduce risk of severe health complications).

This doesn't just affect a skating career. It takes years away from lives and sometimes ruins entire lives.

 

[flanker]

A canadian skater talks about bulimia. GS: let's make assumptions about how terribly the russian girls are treated.

As someone who's being warned for "being off-topic" I cannot let it without a note how this off-topic is officially welcomed.

 

[4everchan]

There is a message from the moderators to keep this topic about Jessica. At the same time, it is a Russian user who mentioned Lipnitskaya. It just goes to show that bulimia has no boundaries. I didn't read this as an anti-Russian ladies/coaching post. It just confirms that what happened somewhere in North America happens pretty much everywhere.

 

[flanker]

Thee is a a particular pattern in that (and I do not think I am the only one who noticed that, not just here). But let's put that aside, the question is whether to not create a "universal" threat on this matter, within the rules of course.