JGP: Are triples and quads worth it?

[TallyT]

Yes, too bad the Golden age of men and women that happened in about the same period, where the techical elements of awesome complexity were wooven into lovely programs by both divisions, and performed by strong personalities skating with admirable competitive spirit and ardor in both divisions was not allowed to continue and grow to encompass the other two disciplines.

Some of us think that the same period was a dire crash and burn in waiting for the women. In retrospect, the Tutberidze soap opera was probably much better for Tiktok's finances than figure skating and certainly the wildly sus scoring did nothing good for the sport's reputation.

 

[Karoltyna]

Some of us think that the same period was a dire crash and burn in waiting for the women. In retrospect, the Tutberidze soap opera was probably much better for Tiktok's finances than figure skating and certainly the wildly sus scoring did nothing good for the sport's reputation.

How can you say so about the scoring? There were so many WR broken. Yes, this was bitter on my side.

 

[lariko]

I deplore Tutberidze as much as the next person, but when her monopoly loosened in 2019-2020, that's when interesting things really started happening wit more and more skaters striving. There is still a strong residual in international juniors with a wider use of 3A than before, but senior women are such a thin wash this season. In men, at least, the bloom wasn't put down to the same extent.

 

[Mathman]

...senior women are such a thin wash this season. In men, at least, the bloom wasn't put down to the same extent.

Myself, I wouldn't draw such a distinct conclusion. I didn't see any thin washes at State America, and for that matter, I didn't see any jaw-dropping feats of technical derring-do on the part pf the men either.

Caitlyn Clark (womens basketball player) hit on 34.4% of her three-oint attempts, last season while averaging a league-record 8.4 assists per game. On the men's side, Stephan Curry made 40.8% of his three-pointers and dished out 5.1 assists per game. I suppose this proves that men are inherentlly more selfish with the ball than women, while women are better team players. In gymnastics women do the balance beam and men do the rings. Ok with me.

As for figure skating, I think that what the ISU is trying to do with it's incessent manipulation of the IJS is to make sure that a skater can't't run away with a competition just by showing one skill over and over, regargless of quality. It used to be the case, not too long ago, that skaters would automatically get sky-high GOEs (plus a PCS boost) just for tossing up a barage of "throw-a-cat-out-ugly-and-see-if-it-lands-n-its feet quads. In general, I approve the iSU's intent. You still get rewarded in base value for all the rotations you do, but you should have to work for any bonuses on top (and no cheating on the rotatoions).

 

[lariko]

Myself, I wouldn't draw such a distinct conclusion. I didn't see any thin washes at State America, and for that matter, I didn't see any jaw-dropping feats of technical derring-do on the part pf the men either.

Caitlyn Clark (womens basketball player) hit on 34.4% of her three-oint attempts, last season while averaging a league-record 8.4 assists per game. On the men's side, Stephan Curry made 40.8% of his three-pointers and dished out 5.1 assists per game. I suppose this proves that men are inherentlly more selfish with the ball than women, while women are better team players. In gymnastics women do the balance beam and men do the rings. Ok with me.

As for figure skating, I think that what the ISU is trying to do with it's incessent manipulation of the IJS is to make sure that a skater can't't run away with a competition just by showing one skill over and over, regargless of quality. It used to be the case, not too long ago, that skaters would automatically get sky-high GOEs (plus a PCS boost) just for tossing up a barage of "throw-a-cat-out-ugly-and-see-if-it-lands-n-its feet quads. In general, I approve the iSU's intent. You still get rewarded in base value for all the rotations you do, but you should have to work for any bonuses on top (and no cheating on the rotatoions).

I am coming out of Skate America with a decision to skip women watching this season. If I have time, I'd find a wall with fresh paint. Loved men, though. Malinin's 4S-3A was so cool after a mistake and Miura was a hurricane. And both Aymoz and Vasiljevs going for quads. So, yeah, I am doing a reverse thing to what the other posters did, and I am gonna be as loud and obnoxious about it as they are. Omg, look at me! I don't watch senior women! Gimme a sticker.

 

[Karoltyna]

I am coming out of Skate America with a decision to skip women watching this season. If I have time, I'd find a wall with fresh paint. Loved men, though. Malinin's 4S-3A was so cool after a mistake and Miura was a hurricane. And both Aymoz and Vasiljevs going for quads. So, yeah, I am doing a reverse thing to what the other posters did, and I am gonna be as loud and obnoxious about it as they are. Omg, look at me! I don't watch senior women! Gimme a sticker.

Oh, I understan you so well, I didn't watch senior women for so many years. Right choices make us happier people.

 

[Mathman]

It’s funny how things go.

For many decades figure skating was regarded as a woman’s sport – and celebrated therefor. In the 1970s Janet Lynn became the highest-paid woman athlete in the world. It was the men’s side that had to struggle against the stygma, “is this really a sport?”

How the tables have turned! Now audiences flock to watch men leaping with enthusiasm (if not always with success), while women are reduced to an unwanted sideshow.

 

[lariko]

It’s funny how things go.

For many decades figure skating was regarded as a woman’s sport – and celebrated therefor. In the 1970s Janet Lynn became the highest-paid woman athlete in the world. It was the men’s side that had to struggle against the stygma, “is this really a sport?”

How the tables have turned! Now audiences flock to watch men leaping with enthusiasm (if not always with success), while women are reduced to an unwanted sideshow.

Better access to free ah... you know. Sources for scantily dressed women imagery.

 

[TallyT]

How the tables have turned! Now audiences flock to watch men leaping with enthusiasm (if not always with success), while women are reduced to an unwanted sideshow.

Going by what I see on the screen of various audience sizes, that may be rebalancing itself, which would be nice.

 

[Anna K.]

What I'm talking about is how freestyle-relevant skating skills are scored in the context of freeskating programs. (Including short programs.)

I promised to return to this discussion but now it's obvious that I never will.
I want to use an opportunity though and suggest that you start a separate based on what you said in your posts. There are not that many threads about steps and you have interesting points that unfortunately disappear in the mass of information on this thread.

I think fans today don't realise just how huge a star Henie was and how much influence she had on popular culture - I just watched a youtube video about films in 1939 (Hollywood's 'Golden year') and ice skating movies were a thing, in some ways the Marvel movies of the day with massive production numbers and budgets and stars to match. Sadly (but hysterically) the video was about The Ice Follies of 1939, a big-budget MGM film (with Technicolor!) starring superstars Joan Crawford and James Stewart and other then-big names none of whom could actually skate and so was appropriately dreadful

Of course, Henie's fame has completely vanished except for the history books, so it shows how fleeting that of even the biggest names in any sport since and now could be. In only a few years it could be "Sasha/Kamila who?"

Thank you for suggesting a video.
Talking about Henie, her fame may be vanished but she influenced figure skating (both show and sports skating) massively. Her success started the process in the end of which [school] figure skating was dropped from figure skating and the whole Olympic FS event started to serve solely as an open casting for future skating shows. This is the irony of today's situation: the "pointy" elements that modern figure skaters develop, multi-rotation jumps and contortionist spins, entered figure skating as show elements that initially had nothing to do with skating. Today, we have plenty of that but international ice shows are no more here to provide skaters with stardom and future career. The show business relevance of ice shows has faded. And we complain that we have not received our coveted piece of showiness. Oh, how could this happen?... I think it is definitely worth to look back at Sonya Henie for full picture.

 

[Mathman]

Talking about Henie, her fame may be vanished but she influenced figure skating (both show and sports skating) massively. Her success started the process in the end of which [school] figure skating was dropped from figure skating and the whole Olympic FS event started to serve solely as an open casting for future skating shows. This is the irony of today's situation: the "pointy" elements that modern figure skaters develop, multi-rotation jumps and contortionist spins, entered figure skating as show elements that initially had nothing to do with skating. Today, we have plenty of that but international ice shows are no more here to provide skaters with stardom and future career. The show business relevance of ice shows has faded. And we complain that we have not received our coveted piece of showiness. Oh, how could this happen?... I think it is definitely worth to look back at Sonya Henie for full picture.

This highlights the dilemma. Figure skating prospers when it offers something more than what a fan gets out of track and field or football. If the only draw is higher, faster, stronger -- well, there are dozens of sports to choose from. Why bother with figure skating?

 

[Magill]

Today, we have plenty of that but international ice shows are no more here to provide skaters with stardom and future career. The show business relevance of ice shows has faded. And we complain that we have not received our coveted piece of showiness. Oh, how could this happen?... I think it is definitely worth to look back at Sonya Henie for full picture.

I wouldn't agree about shows though. It really depends on where you look. They have been thriving in Japan, with some 70 shows this year alone there. In fact, as we know, there are so many that the competition between them has become too fierce and it is not so easy to have them sold out any more, the way it used to be just a few years ago. Still, difficult to say they are non-existent or non-relevant, and many skaters, including non-Japanese ones, still get their bread and butter from these shows.
Sure, they have changed, and keep evolving all the time, and they are not the same as they used to be but at least some of them are still in very very high demand and surely some skaters benefit with a prolonged stardom and career. Yuzuru and Mao are surely the first ones who come to mind with Yuzu planning his birthday party in Saitama this year as his new show prime night, pretty big and not showing any sign of fading Yuna was very active in the show market in Korea for a long time, I am not sure if she still does shows or not, but she did until very recently, and very successfully, just like the other two.
Many others also do well., though maybe with less spectacular success as they were that bit less popular to start with.
I am not familiar with what is happening in Russia now but, from bits and pieces of what I hear, shows are still many and successful there, and Russian star skaters of various generations are thriving in them.
There are some attempts in Europe, too.
So I do not really think this diagnosis is correct, or maybe it needs some explanation of what you mean by this.
Sure, some shows are losing viewers and interest while some other gain them and thrive, but this is just a normal thing, happening all the time.

 

[TallyT]

Today, we have plenty of that but international ice shows are no more here to provide skaters with stardom and future career. The show business relevance of ice shows has faded.

Still, difficult to say they are non-existent or non-relevant, and many skaters, including non-Japanese ones, still get their bread and butter from these shows.... Yuzuru and Mao are surely the first ones who come to mind with Yuzu planning his birthday party in Saitama this year as his new show prime night, pretty big and not showing any sign of fading Yuna was very active in the show market in Korea for a long time, I am not sure if she still does shows or not, but she did until very recently, and very successfully, just like the other two.

The way people want and get their entertainment is different now. I mean, talk about international -? As I just mentioned on the FF and as shared by fans on social media, people from 31 countries have secured tickets and are flying in to Japan for Yuzuru's Saitama shows, and as previous ones have been livestreamed worldwide with enormous success we all have great hopes that this will be too. And call me Pollyanna, but I do think that there is a chance that Shoma, who also has a worldwide fan base, maybe some of the shows he does will get more than just Japanese streaming. Also, Stars on Ice does still do shows in two(?) separate countries, and even though the US wasn't on their list this year, they didn't rule out next - Olympic - year, it will probably depend on whether skating there can produce a big star. This and the other older multi-star shows may not stream internationally as such, but if they are on TV fans are very very good at finding a way to let us all share, which was impossible in the old days!

Oh, and to go back to the OP's first post and "Persuade me that the hard work done by skaters who triple and quad themselves has not been in vain and has true worth in it." ... the stars of the shows that are most successful pretty much all have jumps as well as skating skills and (at differing levels, true) artistry. Jason is a big star in Japan without quads, after all, but so was Zagitova who was all jumps. If solo ice dance does take off, then their stars may be headliners too

 

[Magill]

Today, we have plenty of that but international ice shows are no more here to provide skaters with stardom and future career. The show business relevance of ice shows has faded. And we complain that we have not received our coveted piece of showiness.

The way people want and get their entertainment is different now. I mean, talk about international -? As I just mentioned on the FF and as shared by fans on social media, people from 31 countries have secured tickets and are flying in to Japan for Yuzuru's Saitama shows, and as previous ones have been livestreamed worldwide with enormous success we all have great hopes that this will be too. and the whole post

Talking about international, I know time flies but it was just last year that we had probably the biggest ice show in history, when Yuzu sold out Tokyo Dome with his solo GIFT show , some 35,000 seats under the roof, sold out, plus as many watching in cinemas streaming live in Japan, Hong Kong, Taiwan and I don't remember if Korea was on the list too, plus Disney Plus TV streaming live in Japan, plus worldwide paid livestream subtitled in English live, and setting new standards for such a service in ice shows. Yes, it was amazing, probably more than 100,000 paying viewers watching live, although no one knows how many more. And this is just official channels, and we all know unofficial channels are always present where there are paid livestreams, so the actual numbers were probably even bigger. And this is not counting the archived recordings on D+ and the other stream, plus delayed viewing in cinemas. Plus Disney + put the show on its worldwide offer where it is available to this day, at least in many countries. And It has just been released in Japan on DVD and BlueRay and, guess what. Yes, it went straight to no 1 bestseller despite being still available on Disney+ there. So not exactly a fading and dying business Still this year's Yuzuru's Notte Stellata show in March was watched on paid livestream by some 350,000 people in China alone, and the stream was approved literally last minute there, on the day iit was on, so there was no advertising at all. So there is still huge room to improve and go even bigger.
And, yes, you can say it is only Yuzuru Hanyu who is getting such numbers, but you have mentioned show business aspect of the ice shows,. And this has always been just show biz's reality that you have mega stars, super stars, lesser stars and so on.... Not everyone in show biz is a super star but it does not mean that the business is dying, Might be just bad news for this or that individual performer aspiring to show biz stardom and not getting it their way.

 

[TallyT]

To go back to the OP's question about 'are triples and quads worth it' from a different angle (because if anyone wants to score in current singles disciplines, yes they so are), I have been watching a skater whose qualities and artistry and everything should have taken her to the absolute top, Sasha Cohen. Truly, she makes the recent and current ultra-c girls look callow and wooden, and yet... the mindset she couldn't shake meant that the jumps were (as far as I can see from the videos I have) always her downfall.

When I first heard about solo ice dance, my reaction was "oh nonono..." but thinking more (and like I said, ice dance for couples is now bigger than pairs) maybe it's just a case of the more variety the merrier for fans.

 

[Anna K.]

The way people want and get their entertainment is different now.

This is where the interesting part starts, actually.

On Sonia Henie day, it was easy to tell who was a star. She had world tours, Hollywood movies, she was in the news. Every literate person familiar with Latin alphabet knew who Sonia Henie was. It was simple back then: if you had Hollywood in your pocket, you had it all. But Hollywood has changed since. In example, people used to come to see a movie because Brad Pitt starred in it. Now, people come to see a movie because it is about Spiderman. Actors become stars because they star in a franchise and not the other way around. So, comics have had their share of being a niche entertainment and proved their capacity of becoming huge. We may take it as good news for all types of niche entertainment. But it does not mean that anything can be taken for granted.

Today, we have probably a million ticktockers, youtubers etc. who have more than one million subscribers from godknows how many countries and it does not necessarily mean that ten random people in their own country or even their home town know who they are. It is way more difficult to define what is international/national success and who is a bigger star: a decorated champion or a beginner who posts updates about his/her progress? Everything is success or everything is niche depending on how you see it. As for me, I see no use to engage in a discussion but I definitely read related posts with interest.

I admit that Japan currently has the most interesting pool show-wise. I understand your optimism regarding Japanese ice shows (I have some moderate hopes myself but it’s a different topic). I can see the reason. There is creative competition. Also, there is Yuzu who can rely on good results in “ten random people” test in his home country at least for now. (I’m not convinced about the same result in every one of the mentioned 31 other countries but still, it’s a good foothold.) Does it guarantee anything? It doesn’t. Only time will tell. But that’s what makes it interesting, so… Let’s watch it together

 

[TallyT]

I’m not convinced about the same result in every one of the mentioned 31 other countries

Oh I agree. Even apart from the 'not everyone follows sport at all let alone my sport' thing there are national biases that I think - no, I know - we don't always realise. Plus 'celebrity culture' has really lowered the value of being a celebrity with the number of people known for... being known.

And then as I said, there's Disney on Ice which I understand is still very popular but are any of the stars there well-known or former competitive stars? Rather they are skaters who might not have jumps or fancy skills, but can work well and combine with others...

 

[rabidline]

The last few posts made me think about how the competitive disciplines have moved on to become a sport, instead of an audition for ice shows to get money... for the skaters, but also for the organizers, the sponsors, the "powers that be" who deigned to make them a star. For good and bad, now anyone who can jump and rotate and land most of their jumps, do their spins well, and can get from point A to B on the ice have a chance of scoring high, winning medals and becoming champions, and it doesn't depend on whether they're popular or not, whether they are physically beautiful or not, whether they are liked by sponsors or not, or whether they have a life story worth of a Netflix documentary or not.

Since I liked tennis before I got into figure skating, it's similar to that in the way of tennis doesn't care whether the tennis player is well-behaved or morally right or not. As long as they win the last point of the match, they're the winner of that match. It makes for an annoying watch when people I don't like because of their behavior win, but they did win the last point of the match. That's the uniqueness of sport, it's not about who's morally right or who's more popular or who has the biggest fanbase.

Seeing it from that perspective, every triple and quad is worth it. Whether it's to just to try to gain more points, whether it's to skate clean overall with the triples and/or quads that the skater can do. Every possible point count in trying to make a difference in something they control, and jumps are the biggest point scorer from the elements the skaters themselves can control.

So the thing is, what are the skaters goals when competing? Do they want to get famous and get a lot of fans, get a lot of followers, or do they just want to compete in this sport? For those who wants to compete but find jumps hard, then there are other disciplines they can choose (or not). For those who don't want to compete but want to be more famous and get more fans, there are shows and social media. For those who wants to compete and want to jump, then... it's always worth it.

 

[TallyT]

It's a very expensive sport with few avenues for reward or renumeration: sponsorship is limited, prize money isn't great, show and other avenues are increasingly detached from competition. I'm just oh so grateful to the majority whether they jump or not, those who will never be on Olympic or world podiums, who are just as needed as the stars - and even more grateful for all the juniors we do have coming through, from Rio and Mao and Jin through to those like Hannah who are trying to create a small figure skating space where there is none.

 

[Mathman]

I have to confess that I am impatient with fans who say things like, "Oh what a terrible competion. No one ever scored over 300."

Not every competition is the Olympics. Not every skater is a world champion. Not every performance sets a world record, or even a personal best. To me... skate with conviction, pay attention to detail, do your utmost to deliver a performance that you are proud of -- and I can look over your shoulder and see Charlotte Oelschalgel smiling down.