Johnny and the quad

[antmanb]

Well, may be I am misunderstanding the ISU communication. Take a look in http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/ISUCommunication1396.pdf, page 7:
Element - Jump
Error - "Fall on landing"
Reduction of other - "-3, -GoE".
I read this to mean that 3 points are deducted from the program, and a negative GoE is given. Base 9, maximum negative GoE, and -3 would give us 3.

I think the "-3, -GOE" means that the GOE should be -3 and that the jump can only ever have a -GOE so even if the skater had 20 metres of complicated steps which sped up throughout, landed a huge 'Tano triple jump, that but for the fall would have gotten a +3, you can't net it all out to get 0 GOE on the jump - it has to be negative.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

The Old Question: Can a guy win a comp without one? Can he podium without one?

Joe

Depends on what the other guys do! It's "how long's a piece of string"

Can a guy win a com without one? Yes if he skates the best of everyone skating that day.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

Like I said before, many other people have also said that Johnny was solid in SP and practice. Maybe you see what you want to see. And no, you did not state the reason why. You stated what you assumed to be the reason, with little basis in facts. The fact is his coach said he was prepared, and he said he was prepared. They'd know better than you, no?

First hand observations from people who were there i think have more sway that what is said by the actual skater in a press conference. At any rate i thought Johnny did a journal entry saying that he was undertrained for nationals and that is howed but that he'd keep working full steam ahead for worlds?

I think it is pretty obvious that johnny was disillusioned with his skating last season. He tried a different style that seemed counter-intiutive, he never seemed to fully get into the programs. Let's hope that he's true to himself with programs this seasons and that he works hard all summer and is in tip top condition at the start of the season and keeps his momentum going through nationals, regains his title and ends up on the podium at worlds.

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Of course he needs a quad. With all the strong men in front of him now, and his own sliding ranking and status, he would have a big challenge to win a medal even with a clean performance with a quad. It is almost amusing to read some of the comments in this thread, as if this is a skater so superior to others maybe he could/should be able to come out on top even without a quad. Maybe you need to be reminded this is a skater who even lost the short program at Nationals to someone like Evan Lysacek, with both doing the same jumps. If that is how the judges view him compared to Lysacek, imagine how they view him compared to the real big guns - Lambiel, Joubert, Takahashi, Plushenko if he returns.

So the quad is not even negotiable if he any hopes of winning a World medal at this point. If he isnt thinking of doing it, he might as well turn his attention to just staying in the top 10 at Worlds, and staying on the U.S World team. Even with a quad, he would need to skate perfectly and others make mistakes to win a World medal at this point.

BRAVO!!!

This talk about winning without a quad is foolish. While I consider Johnny one of the best skaters ever, I have to look for the Quad and maybe more than one to consider him one of the best competitors..

While he could win the PCS scores if the judges like his style, he still needs big points for the Tech scores. He is up against at least 5 competitors who will execute perfectly one or more quads and ALL of them will give an excellent presentation I'd like to see Johnny win but he has a rough road ahead of him.

I don't understand how some posters imply that all the Quad Men will lose out on the PCS scores, and Johnny will win. His competitors are all good skaters, and they will all get good PCS scores enough to retain their lead after the Tech. duh.

Joe

 

[seafoam]

First hand observations from people who were there i think have more sway that what is said by the actual skater in a press conference. At any rate i thought Johnny did a journal entry saying that he was undertrained for nationals and that is howed but that he'd keep working full steam ahead for worlds?

No. Both Johnny and Priscilla Hill said that he had trained intensively for Nationals. I don't know about his practices--I seem to remember observers saying that he didn't do full run-throughs of his LP. Certainly in the warm-ups before the LP he was impressive, doing a gorgeous, textbook quad combo, IIRC. It even got a "Wow!" out of Kurt Browining, lol.

I think it is pretty obvious that johnny was disillusioned with his skating last season. He tried a different style that seemed counter-intiutive, he never seemed to fully get into the programs. Let's hope that he's true to himself with programs this seasons and that he works hard all summer and is in tip top condition at the start of the season and keeps his momentum going through nationals, regains his title and ends up on the podium at worlds.
Ant

ITA. Johnny obviously thought he needed a metaphorical kick in the pants as far as training goes, hence the coaching change. I certainly hope it earns results for him next season. And I agree he needs to get over the quad phobia if he has any hope of medaling at any event. I wish it weren't that way, but that's the reality.

Most of all, I hope to see a return to the kind of skating he is (still) capable of. There may be other guys who are just as impressive as far as presentation and artistry, but Johnny has something really special, IMO.

 

[Eddie Lee]

Johnny obviously thought he needed a metaphorical kick in the pants as far as training goes, hence the coaching change. I certainly hope it earns results for him next season. And I agree he needs to get over the quad phobia if he has any hope of medaling at any event. I wish it weren't that way, but that's the reality.

Most of all, I hope to see a return to the kind of skating he is (still) capable of. There may be other guys who are just as impressive as far as presentationartistr y, but Johnny has something really special, IMO.

Whew! Thanks! You really summed up the situation. Johnny needed (needs) a kick in the pants--and--he has a special way of communicating on the ice, sans his mouth!

Again thanks!

 

[Tinymavy15]

2007 US Nats Results:
http://spokane2007.usfigureskating.org/News/EventNews/~/media/F64E4C8F2ADA412FBDAF2BCC8EA8EC5C.ashx

Johnny, FS:
4T: 9.00(BV) - 1.57 (GOE) = 7.43

Which is still a bit too much, b/c there's a standard -2 GOE for 2footing a jump.

well, johnny's quad at nationals was really beautiful IMO. I would have been happy to over look the two foot, but everybody seemed to only focus on the 2 foot and disregard the jump all togther. It was competed and nice and controled and straight on the landing. So, i think that 7.43 is not too much!

BRAVO!!!

I don't understand how some posters imply that all the Quad Men will lose out on the PCS scores, and Johnny will win. His competitors are all good skaters, and they will all get good PCS scores enough to retain their lead after the Tech. duh.

Joe

yeah, becasue for more reason, the judges give PCS scores that match technical ones. Example, Sasha's PCS scores from her 2006 olympics LP were lower than at Nationals, when in my opinion she had more emotion and sold the program more at the olympics. we see brian joubert and plusenko getting these huge PCS numbers becasue they landed a quad or two!
So no, realisticly Johhny can not rely in PCS scores to win.

 

[temperboy28]

yeah, becasue for more reason, the judges give PCS scores that match technical ones. Example, Sasha's PCS scores from her 2006 olympics LP were lower than at Nationals, when in my opinion she had more emotion and sold the program more at the olympics. we see brian joubert and plusenko getting these huge PCS numbers becasue they landed a quad or two! So no, realisticly Johhny can not rely in PCS scores to win.

No, more like realisticaly Johnny can not rely in PCS scores to win since he in no way has an advantage on the other top skaters in other areas of his skating that would compensate for the deficit in points in not having a quad. It is a joke to think Johnny is superior to the extent in the rest of his skating that would merit his winning without the quad, no matter how PCS scores were used. Most of the other top skaters have better spins then him, many have better footwork, there are more now that can compete or possibly best him on the artistic side (Buttle, Takahashi, Lambiel), and he is slower then almost all the other top skaters.

It is more like Johnny is a skater who was only 8th place at last years Worlds, only 3rd place at last years Nationals, who has never medaled at Worlds, and is going to be 23 this coming year. To ever think a skater with those career credentials and current ranking could win without a major element others have, no matter how the judging was done, is extremely silly and laughable in all honesty. If there is a skater who could win without a quad it would be a skater like Plushenko at the peak of his career.

I could bring up again what I mentioned earlier. Last year at U.S Nationals Weir skating cleanly in the short vs Lysacek skating cleanly in the short, both doing the same jumps, Weir could not even beat Lysacek. If Weir could not even beat Lysacek with both clean doing the same jumps, imagine if that were the real big guns like Plushenko, Joubert, Lambiel, Takahashi. If anything Weir would need all the quads the top skaters are doing, and still need help, if he is to ever win a World medal at this point. The higher truth is the field is passing him by, if anyone needs extra jump content it would be Weir, forget about less jump content. It is only his rabid fan base who sees him as a skater who should be able to win without a quad if he performed to his potential, and only cant since PCS are not used properly.

To think a skaters PCS are attached to their doing a quad or not is wishful thinking. Lysacek's PCS only match what he was getting before doing the quad (even at U.S Nationals, his PCS for his flawless/quad-triple performance were almost exactly equal to his flawed/quadless performance at last years Nationals). Plushenko got the highest PCS of all the men at Worlds in 2005 both with his quadless tenative qualifying performance, and his short program with a fall on the quad. Joubert gets very high PCS even when he does not complete a quad and misses a bunch of other jumps. The judges like the presentation of Plushenko and Joubert. It does not matter if you as a fan do or not, the judges do. To attribute their PCS or others to doing a quad or not is wishful thinking.

 

[temperboy28]

yeah, becasue for more reason, the judges give PCS scores that match technical ones. Example, Sasha's PCS scores from her 2006 olympics LP were lower than at Nationals, when in my opinion she had more emotion and sold the program more at the olympics. we see brian joubert and plusenko getting these huge PCS numbers becasue they landed a quad or two! So no, realisticly Johhny can not rely in PCS scores to win.

You can never compare Nationals scores to scores at an international event with any accuracy. Scores at Nationals are purposely inflated in many countries, including the U.S. Look at Evan Lysacek scoring a 170 at last years Nationals, or even Takahashi's 170 at last years Japanese Nationals. Plus Belbin/Agosto's scores at the 2006 U.S Nationals, which probably give them a 2-fall cushion to have won the Olympic Gold. So scores from Nationals, in most countries, cant be accurately used as a measuring stick for international competition.

 

[Tinymavy15]

^^^ agree:agree: I think that a few years ago Johnny was seen by many, myself inculded to be the next big skater for the US, but as the years went by and he lost some of that originallity, seems to have lost intrest in competitive skating, and still has not landed a quad, not to mention the fact that i don't think he put out one clean long program in at least a year..... Evan has filled the position.

 

[temperboy28]

^^^ agree:agree: I think that a few years ago Johnny was seen by many, myself inculded to be the next big skater for the US, but as the years went by and he lost some of that originallity, seems to have lost intrest in competitive skating, and still has not landed a quad, not to mention the fact that i don't think he put out one clean long program in at least a year..... Evan has filled the position.

Evan is definitely the top American skater right now. You are right. He is pushing to do the quad, not just talking about it like Johnny. He is performing consistently in international competition, unlike Johnny. He seems to battle through injuries to reach goals and success unlike Johnny. He is working hard on improving his skating, not just relying on general reputation as a beautiful and stylish skater or other reputed traits, unlike Johnny.

If you ask the international top guys like Plushenko, Lambiel, Joubert, the Japanese, who they respected and felt threatened by more right now of the 2 Americans, it would be Lysacek in a heartbeat I bet.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I believe Johnny lost it when he got involved in the outside world. He had it all when figure skating was his world, but......

Let's hope that the change of coach will bring back a more focused Johnny.

Joe

 

[76olympics]

Johnny is a charming guy. You can see it in all the care he takes in the journal entries and Q and As he posts. But, I think he has been acting like someone who has already finished his eligible career and has copious time to devote to all of these outside pursuits. I think he gets caught up in enthusiasms and makes career decisions based on them. Anissina was a successful ice dancer, but I didn't understand entrusting his choreography to her when (to my knowledge) she hasn't produced mens' programs in the past. Why not ask her for help in the exhibitions?

I am the last person to swoon over quads. I have never liked them and would rather see one beautiful triple axel than fifteen quads, but they are needed for eligible competition.

To bring up Toller ( again!), he was a very consistent strong free skater ( unlike Sandhu). I have seen a great deal of video coverage of his skating and I have seen few falls or even bobbles on jumps from him. His programs were well-constructed and memorable. But, he was weak in figures and didn't really try to correct that ( his coach was perennially exasperated with hiim over this). He could not win without strong figures. He really dislikes Bianchetti and feels she did not appreciate his skating. He may have grounds for that opinion, but -as she said in her book- he competed in a certain era and that era gave figures a good bit of weight. Once he was professional, he could leave all of that behind.

I wish Johnny would concentrate on being an eligible skater now. We can enjoy his commentary in the future... He has great potential, but I feel like we have been waiting a long time for it to flower...

 

[psycho]

But, I think he has been acting like someone who has already finished his eligible career and has copious time to devote to all of these outside pursuits.

What outside pursuits has he dedicated copious time to? I don't understand why two fashion shows (that did not take any time from his training at all) and one Oscar party somehow morphed into time-consuming pursuits in the eyes of some people. So many other skaters engage is similar stuff, why is Johnny getting lambasted for this?!
Some examples of what I mean:

Lambiel does quite a lot of modeling work as well as commercials for various products. I doubt it takes a lot of his time, but no one ever talks about that.

Evan was in a movie, no one remembers that. He also attended a pre-Oscar party last year, and there was no outrage.

Ben Agosto does voice work, I read somewhere, and Tanith does TV correspondant work and that does not impact their training.

Other skaters go to school, and that's not a problem. I understand that some people don't consider fashion and modeling as something as worthwhile as an education, but Johnny seriously wants to get involved in fashion after he retires, so doing two fashion shows that take nothing from his training is no different than going to school to prepare for a future career (actually, it's probably less time consuming).

So once again I ask, what are the time-consuming events he is doing that others are not?

 

[76olympics]

Honestly, I don't see other skaters devoting so much time to interviews and answering questions from fans. I am sure that all of them have personal lives and hobbies, but Johnny is so open about all of it that we know a good more about it. I enjoy hearing about all of this. Don't get me wrong. He has a gift for expression and I think he throws himself sincerely into these communications. I will definitely buy the book he has promised to write one day.

But, I think it has a price. Maybe, it's a price he wants to pay. I meant to add above that I really don't see Johnny blameshifting which is admirable. He takes responsibility for missed opportunities on himself, but he keeps missing the opportunities. It is frustrating for those of us who want him to medal internationally. I can actually empathize more with Johnny's sensibility than that of of Brian Boitano. But, I can see why Boitano's training habits and focus took him to the top of the podium. If you are at the Olympics ( a great achievement in itself), catch your bus. I had to catch buses too when I was 20 and I managed to do it and I wasn' t the Boitano of my university by any means.

I don't think Johnny has to stifle his interests or even change anything if he doesn't want to, but last year's plan isn't taking him where he says he wants to go. I hope he gets there.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Psycho - I don't think his fans, including me, are complaining about Johnny. I think we are suggesting that he get back to focusing on figure skating. It seemed to me, and I can be very wrong about this, that his growing up from a small town in Pennsylvania to have a measure of success in figure skating, and travelling around the country doing those Sunday Afternoon shows, gave him a sense of glamor which he enjoyed. His 2003 comeback in Nationals after the miserable 2002, created the stardom which followed and the expectation of the gold medal in 2010.

However,he began to lose it, in 2005 which I believe was caused by his growing interest in being a 'star'. Now, I could be wrong as I often am, but that is how I feel about this at the moment.

The problem as I see it, is that he lost his Focus on figure skating, and those promising quads have not shown up. I think this will be a pivotal season for Johnny's future.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

I think there is also the possibility that Johnny has expanded his goals beyond winning medals in skating contests. He is a three time national champion and has been to the Olympics. He is 23 years old; maybe he is looking ahead instead of back, in terms of how he wants to make his mark.

There is a great article by Kathleen Bangs in International Figure Skating magazine about the Fallen Angels program that he did with Melissa Gregory and Denis Petukhov last year.

Gregory and Petukhov were scheduled to do a few guest appearances with COI last summer, but when Tom Collins saw the audience's reaction to Fallen Angels he immediately signed them for the whole tour.

KB also writes,

What helped the program get noticed beyond the realm of the typical figure skating fan demographic was Weir's unabashed popularity as a pop culture icon. Celebrity gossip blogger Perez Hilton posted a "Fallen Angels" video link on his site, and within two days it logged 50,000 hits.

I remember Johnny's Swan program a lot more distictly than I remember which skating contests he won or didn't win skating it.

Maybe Johnny's real goal is to create programs that are remembered long after we have forgotten who won this or that championship. :agree:

 

[Snowgirl]

Maybe Johnny's real goal is to create programs that are remembered long after we have forgotten who won this or that championship. :agree:

Johnny once anwsered a similar question in his Q&A.

What would you most like to be known for as a skater?

A: I would like people to remember me as someone who tried their best, worked hard and showed something unique and beautiful.

 

[Tinymavy15]

I remember Johnny's Swan program a lot more distictly than I remember which skating contests he won or didn't win skating it.

Maybe Johnny's real goal is to create programs that are remembered long after we have forgotten who won this or that championship. :agree:

great point. i think that we natuarlly assume that skaters are after winning medals and getting as far as they can as fast as they can. Maybe Johnny feel that he has already "been a success" ( after all how many skaters can only dream of even gettingto nationals. Johnny has won three times.

Perhaps he really just wants to perform and create now.... if he retried and just did pro stuff, he would have success with SOI etc for MANY years to come.

 

[calica]

What success?:scratch: Johnny has not won anything ..........
Already I know that you will say to me that has 3 nats, but it does not have too much importance. I understand who wins Nat has prestige in the USA, But if we speak about championships it it is an insignificance