Johnny Weir and His Coaches

[libby]

I can't remember which events each skater had but disparity of competition in each event is certainly a factor in the GP.



Ant

They competed against each other at the first of their two GP events, Skate America. Johnny won the silver and Evan the bronze.

Evan then went to Skate Canada and won the bronze again, losing to Patrick Chan and Ryan Bradley (Bradley is ranked 27th in the world and came in 7th in his other GP event, Trophee Eric Bompard). Johnny went to NHK Trophy and won the silver again, behind Nobunari Oda.

The "disparity of competition in each event" excuse just doesn't hold up here - sorry.

Also, I am unsure where you are getting the idea that Evan has Johnny beaten on the international medal count "for now" - over the past two seasons, Johnny has clearly been ahead of Evan in the international medal count. Johnny won gold medals in both of his Grand Prix events last season (including at Cup of Russia, where he competed against Evan and beat him), while Evan only won two silvers. At the GPF, Evan did take the bronze and Johnny was 4th, but at Worlds, Johnny took the bronze and Evan did not compete. And since Johnny is certainly ahead of Evan internationally this season (and is ahead of him in the World rankings), there is no doubt he is competing more strongly than Evan right now.

 

[antmanb]

They competed against each other at the first of their two GP events, Skate America. Johnny won the silver and Evan the bronze.

Evan then went to Skate Canada and won the bronze again, losing to Patrick Chan and Ryan Bradley (Bradley is ranked 27th in the world and came in 7th in his other GP event, Trophee Eric Bompard). Johnny went to NHK Trophy and won the silver again, behind Nobunari Oda.

The "disparity of competition in each event" excuse just doesn't hold up here - sorry.

Also, I am unsure where you are getting the idea that Evan has Johnny beaten on the international medal count "for now" - over the past two seasons, Johnny has clearly been ahead of Evan in the international medal count. Johnny won gold medals in both of his Grand Prix events last season (including at Cup of Russia, where he competed against Evan and beat him), while Evan only won two silvers. At the GPF, Evan did take the bronze and Johnny was 4th, but at Worlds, Johnny took the bronze and Evan did not compete. And since Johnny is certainly ahead of Evan internationally this season (and is ahead of him in the World rankings), there is no doubt he is competing more strongly than Evan right now.

Ok i was thinking more International Championships (ie worlds and 4CCs. Have Evan or Johnny been to 4CC?) where Evan has two bronze medals to Johnny's one. Evan didn't go to the last worlds because of injury but he's been enough of a competitor to medal in two consecutive world championships, compared to Johnny who's been bubbling at around the same level but failed to medal until last year when Takahashi lost that bronze medal by adding a double toe to a jump in much the same way as Pluschenk lost the GPF to Sandhu.

I don't think it takes anything away from his skating to say that Johnny is the better skater while Evan is the better competitor. Johnny certainly is the better skater IMO, and Evan has been a while lot more consistent that Johnny over the years.

Ant

 

[Hikaru]

Just wanted to add that I don't get this "Johnny and CoP don't get along" theme that sometimes I hear from people. I think it suits him. Otoñal was a CoP program, in fact he won all his GP events with it (except the final, I think he had to withdraw... don't remember really). So how come that gorgeous program that we all talk about could survive the CoP and still be perfectly beautiful???

 

[libby]

Ok i was thinking more International Championships (ie worlds and 4CCs. Have Evan or Johnny been to 4CC?) where Evan has two bronze medals to Johnny's one. Evan didn't go to the last worlds because of injury but he's been enough of a competitor to medal in two consecutive world championships, compared to Johnny who's been bubbling at around the same level but failed to medal until last year when Takahashi lost that bronze medal by adding a double toe to a jump in much the same way as Pluschenk lost the GPF to Sandhu.



Ant

That's really grasping at straws to justify an argument. Your original comment was "if you're talking about proof of a competitor surely medal count is one way and internationally Evan does have Johnny beaten on that count...for now!"

But now you are arguing that Evan is the better competitor because he has two World bronze medals to Johnny's one, although Evan has not won a medal at Worlds since 2006, and Johnny is the current bronze medal holder. And you claim that Johnny has been "bubbling around the same level" when in fact he went from 8th place at 2007 Worlds to the bronze at last season's (it is just silly to try to dismiss his bronze by saying he only got it because Takahashi messed up - Evan only got the bronze in 2006 because Plushenko withdrew and Oda messed up his free skate, so does that mean it doesn't count?), and from winning a bronze and silver in the 2006-2007 GP series to winning two golds last season.

Evan, on the other hand, has steadily declined internationally each season, going from a silver and a gold in the 2006 GP season, to two silvers in the 2007 season, to two bronzes in the 2008 season and not even qualifying for the Final. He was fifth at 2007 Worlds before withdrawing last season. He won Four Continents in 2007 but only came in third last season. Every season his results internationally get lower and lower while Johnny's rise. It is just a simple fact - look at the results. Whatever competitive edge Evan might once have had appears to be gone.

 

[Medusa]

Just wanted to add that I don't get this "Johnny and CoP don't get along" theme that sometimes I hear from people. I think it suits him. Otoñal was a CoP program, in fact he won all his GP events with it (except the final, I think he had to withdraw... don't remember really). So how come that gorgeous program that we all talk about could survive the CoP and still be perfectly beautiful???

Simply because nobody had COP really figured out during that season. If you check protocols you will find that Johnny's elements had the following levels (e.g. Worlds 2005): spins were FCSp1, CSp1, FSSp2 and CCoSp1 and the steps were CiSt2 and SlSt1. But it didn't really matter because even the COP-wunderkind Buttle had only level 2 on his spins and level 1 and 2 on his steps. Back then level 2 was rare, and a level 3 element is nowhere to be found.

(EDIT: I just re-realised what a really bad competition Worlds 2005 were for the men - the guy who became World Champion landed 4 Triples and 2 Quads, the guy who won Silver landed 5 Triples...)

 

[Mathman]

If you check protocols you will find that Johnny's elements had the following levels (e.g. Worlds 2005): spins were FCSp1, CSp1, FSSp2 and CCoSp1 and the steps were CiSt2 and SlSt1.

Food for thought. Now everyone does level three and level four spins. Are the programs better or worse?

I just re-realised what a really bad competition Worlds 2005 were for the men - the guy who became World Champion landed 4 Triples and 2 Quads, the guy who won Silver landed 5 Triples...)

That's OK, Slutskaya made up for it!

 

[Medusa]

Food for thought. Now everyone does level three and level four spins. Are the programs better or worse?

Concerning the spins it was an interesting effect: guys like Joubert and KVDP suddenly had to really work on them, a few turns on one leg didn't qualify as a spin anymore. And Joubert's spins this season are really decent, nice positions, powerfully executed, quite fast and well-centered - so this was definitely a positive effect.

But the guys with good spins to begin with - Lambiel, Weir - suffered from the changes. A long time ago there was a Goldenskate article about Weir from 2004 I guess and it said that he has the best spins outside of Switzerland. Nowadays his spins are good average, but nothing more. Lambiel's spins were still breathtaking after the implement of COP - but what he worked on so hard, the speed and the centering, wasn't really important anymore. And at the beginning of COP Lambiel got only level 1 for his incredible spins.

And steps: imagine one of those slow, fragmented step sequences with all those itsy-bitsy movements in like every direction - instead of Johnny's sweeping goose-bumps straightline sequence in Otonal. Nightmare! Simplicity can be a bliss. On the other hand Joubert's short and Takahashi's short last season have very COP-friendly step-sequences and are great to watch. But then again they have a similar style, modern fast-paced music, powerful, athletic.

I don't know, I still think there shouldn't be so many rules that threaten to suffocate the artistic side of a program.

 

[Tinymavy15]

Medusa made an excellent point of what is wrong with CoP.

 

[Tonichelle]

but sport should trump artistry in a competitive atmosphere... the one with the most difficulty should be rewarded for it

that being said, planning to fall on a quad so that you still get credit for the rotations (ala Buttle) or sloppy skating should NOT be considered athletically superior. THAT is what is wrong with the CoP, not the fact that it asks the athletes to step up.

 

[Mathman]

... the one with the most difficulty should be rewarded for it.

I am not completely convinced of that. For instance, it is difficult to skate blindfolded.... (actually, that would be pretty cool. +3 GOE. Never mind. )

 

[Tonichelle]

bringing up the ridiculous isn't really a good argument...

 

[ae9177]

I enjoyed watching the Johnny Weir back in 04-06 seasons, but lost interest in him in the past 2 years. His programs are empty and bland. The simplicity of his choreography and lack of big jumps are definitely helpful to improve his consistency. I don't think he can skate cleanly if he skates to any of Jeff's programs packed with difficult transitions or Daisuke's programs packed with quads and more difficult choreo.

One thing that really bothered me is the loss of creativity in his choreo and his tendency to recycle elements, his step sequences of SP and LP look exactly the same to me (in both last season and this season). This may help him to get big scores, but I don't like his approach. Maybe we should blame his coach for this.

 

[bekalc]

but sport should trump artistry in a competitive atmosphere... the one with the most difficulty should be rewarded for it

that being said, planning to fall on a quad so that you still get credit for the rotations (ala Buttle) or sloppy skating should NOT be considered athletically superior. THAT is what is wrong with the CoP, not the fact that it asks the athletes to step up.

Buttle doing that made me so incredibly angry.

I am not completely convinced of that. For instance, it is difficult to skate blindfolded.... (actually, that would be pretty cool. +3 GOE. Never mind

I feel that way.. As long as what's done is done well, I think the one with the most difficulty should win, of course that's assuming everything else is good. I.e Timothy Goebel had no business ever beating Yagudin/Plushenko whenever they were somewhat on.. (only if they imploded)

 

[jennylovskt]

I enjoyed watching the Johnny Weir back in 04-06 seasons, but lost interest in him in the past 2 years. His programs are empty and bland. The simplicity of his choreography and lack of big jumps are definitely helpful to improve his consistency. I don't think he can skate cleanly if he skates to any of Jeff's programs packed with difficult transitions or Daisuke's programs packed with quads and more difficult choreo. .

Johnny tried difficult choreographed programs in 06-07 season, but he hasn't tried it combining with the hard training yet.

One thing that really bothered me is the loss of creativity in his choreo and his tendency to recycle elements, his step sequences of SP and LP look exactly the same to me (in both last season and this season). This may help him to get big scores, but I don't like his approach. Maybe we should blame his coach for this.

It bothers me too. If simplifying the programs is the way to get Johnny's technical steadiness back on track first (like we said last season), this season it seems a time to up load his program and show more of his abilities. But it's the same as last year. Where is the new choreograph? They all look familiar.

 

[dancingqueen]

If we are talking about same or similar choreo, then, Daisuke’s Phantom of Opera and his Romeo & Juliet were also almost the same, very similar. And when he did two quads at 4CC, I thought it was less choreography than when he was doing one quad. Only his hip hop swan lake was different type of program.

I also found that Lambiel’s step sequence in SP 2007 worlds, and his SP in 2007-2008 season are almost the same. They were great, so I have no complaints about it. I liked it. But it was very similar. Most of his choreo before four seasons was also very similar and Delarion, four seasons, and poeta, those are the only three which I see as very creative programs.

Buttle was re-using his FP last season because of his injury in 2006-07 season, and didn’t use it much that season. He also re-used his SP, too at last worlds and 4CC after trying his new SP during GPS and looked like didn’t work out but I thought it was very good.

I don’t think all of Johnny’s choreo this season is all the same as last season, if you really look at it. There are some parts of choreo he was re-using from last season and also his king of chess which I’m not so crazy for, but his FP this season’s choreo is not that simple like his love is war program. To me,it is not much different from Buttle’s last season FP, if we look at the choreo. Look at his body language right from the beginning of the program, how he uses his hands, his expression especially in the middle of the program, etc .

Besides, he puts deep emotion into every movement , which I see as very natural. I don’t call it’s as an empty program. But what you want to see in his programs may be different from me.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Johnny Weir has the best FLOW in figure skating, imo. So does he have to do Morozov steps up the straightaway? I don't think so. His stroking makes the CoP look ridiculous. again jmo.

 

[isk82]

Johnny Weir has the best FLOW in figure skating, imo. So does he have to do Morozov steps up the straightaway? I don't think so. His stroking makes the CoP look ridiculous. again jmo.

I agree with the above and also with Medusa's post above. Not everybody has the flow and carriage that Johnny Weir has. Skating doesn't/shouldn't have to be all about frantic feet and flailing arms. There is something to be said for flow and smooth edges and control.

 

[Bennett]

If we are talking about same or similar choreo, then, Daisuke’s Phantom of Opera and his Romeo & Juliet were also almost the same, very similar. And when he did two quads at 4CC, I thought it was less choreography than when he was doing one quad. Only his hip hop swan lake was different type of program.

I also found that Lambiel’s step sequence in SP 2007 worlds, and his SP in 2007-2008 season are almost the same. They were great, so I have no complaints about it. I liked it. But it was very similar. Most of his choreo before four seasons was also very similar and Delarion, four seasons, and poeta, those are the only three which I see as very creative programs.

Buttle was re-using his FP last season because of his injury in 2006-07 season, and didn’t use it much that season. He also re-used his SP, too at last worlds and 4CC after trying his new SP during GPS and looked like didn’t work out but I thought it was very good.

I don’t think all of Johnny’s choreo this season is all the same as last season, if you really look at it. There are some parts of choreo he was re-using from last season and also his king of chess which I’m not so crazy for, but his FP this season’s choreo is not that simple like his love is war program. To me,it is not much different from Buttle’s last season FP, if we look at the choreo. Look at his body language right from the beginning of the program, how he uses his hands, his expression especially in the middle of the program, etc .

Besides, he puts deep emotion into every movement , which I see as very natural. I don’t call it’s as an empty program. But what you want to see in his programs may be different from me.

I agree with dancingqueen that it is a common strategy, though not that I like it very much, to reuse the exact elements. The majority of the ladies reuse exactly the same spiral sequence in SP and LP. We also often see the exact combination spins from the same skater. I cannot remember how many times I saw Irina's exact combination spin. It is not only Johnny who does that.

I have not studied Johnny's choreos and steps so analytically. But I would like to say that his programs give unique overall impressions along with the line of Johnnyness. I had already said this elsewhere before and please forgive me for repeating it; but it is like Renoir's paintings always has the same face on every character and similar atmosphere everywhere, but is still enjoyable. It is not unusual for an artist to pursue the same/related theme for a long period of time, oftentimes the entire life. If it is coming from the inside, it is more often the case that the artist has some unique, distinct style and pursues related themes, than trying out completely different styles and themes every three months.

As long as each program is good and delivered with deep emotion, it does not matter to me how similar it is with another masterpiece of his.

I think that Jeff was good at trying out very different genres, yet maintaining the distinct Jeffness. But I respect and appreciate both Jeff's and Johnny's approaches.

 

[antmanb]

That's really grasping at straws to justify an argument. Your original comment was "if you're talking about proof of a competitor surely medal count is one way and internationally Evan does have Johnny beaten on that count...for now!"

But now you are arguing that Evan is the better competitor because he has two World bronze medals to Johnny's one, although Evan has not won a medal at Worlds since 2006, and Johnny is the current bronze medal holder. And you claim that Johnny has been "bubbling around the same level" when in fact he went from 8th place at 2007 Worlds to the bronze at last season's (it is just silly to try to dismiss his bronze by saying he only got it because Takahashi messed up - Evan only got the bronze in 2006 because Plushenko withdrew and Oda messed up his free skate, so does that mean it doesn't count?), and from winning a bronze and silver in the 2006-2007 GP series to winning two golds last season.

Evan, on the other hand, has steadily declined internationally each season, going from a silver and a gold in the 2006 GP season, to two silvers in the 2007 season, to two bronzes in the 2008 season and not even qualifying for the Final. He was fifth at 2007 Worlds before withdrawing last season. He won Four Continents in 2007 but only came in third last season. Every season his results internationally get lower and lower while Johnny's rise. It is just a simple fact - look at the results. Whatever competitive edge Evan might once have had appears to be gone.

:scratch: ooooooooooookay.

Ant

Food for thought. Now everyone does level three and level four spins.

Just another observation but in 2005 was it still only levels 1-3 in the elements?

And steps: imagine one of those slow, fragmented step sequences with all those itsy-bitsy movements in like every direction - instead of Johnny's sweeping goose-bumps straightline sequence in Otonal. Nightmare! Simplicity can be a bliss. On the other hand Joubert's short and Takahashi's short last season have very COP-friendly step-sequences and are great to watch. But then again they have a similar style, modern fast-paced music, powerful, athletic.

I don't know, I still think there shouldn't be so many rules that threaten to suffocate the artistic side of a program.

I'm sure it was around 2005 where the contrast between Lambiel's competitive programs and his exhibitions was amazing. I've never been a huge fan of show skating or exhibitions but I was sick of all the cookie cutter COP programs and Lambiel's exhibitions were sublime. He skated to "You're beautiful" and had the most beautiful flowing straightline step sequence, with gorgeous edges and spread eagles that matched the music so wonderfully. It was actually in a straightline *gasp* as opposed to the mini serpentine's we're seeing nowadys. It really made me realise that the steps he'd done there were much better IMO than the ones in his competitive program - he had wonderful posture through it with extremely deep edges and a lovely arched back and beautiful arms.

Why has the COP taken all that beauty and thrown it in the bin? No longer are skaters expected to perform step sequences with good posture - arched backs and creating nice lines with their arms, they're expected to constantly break at the waist, bend over, touch their toes, flap their arms til they're nearly air born and roll their heads round and round to ensure the upper body movement bullet is ticked off.

If there is one thing and only one that i could change about the COP its any reference to movement of the upper body as a level enhancer for any step sequences.

but sport should trump artistry in a competitive atmosphere... the one with the most difficulty should be rewarded for it

that being said, planning to fall on a quad so that you still get credit for the rotations (ala Buttle) or sloppy skating should NOT be considered athletically superior. THAT is what is wrong with the CoP, not the fact that it asks the athletes to step up.

But the scoring system itself doesn't say that sport should trump artistry (if you read artistry and performance) because of the GOE's. If it was always about sport over performance then it would matter about a skater landing a jump like an inline skater - in a deep squat landing on both feet and moving onto the next element.

This sport is about both sport and performance counting - that's why there's two marks.

Once upon a time under 6.0 the tie breaker for the LP was the second mark whereas the tie breaker for the SP was the technical mark. Is that still the case under COP?

bringing up the ridiculous isn't really a good argument...

I don't know - Pluschenko's circular step sequence in his 2006 SP was pretty ridiculous with the level of frenetic upper body movement while the music was soft and slow. That IMO was ridiculous and was only there to satisfy the one bullet of the level enhancer for step sequences. I think skating blind folded is just as valid a level enhancer. Is it any more ridiculous than the level enhancers for the pairs overhead lifts given the danger that goes with it?

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

For the man without a quad, Weir does extremely well with medals. One needs only to look at Buttle and his race against the big quad Joubert for winning a Worlds.

I just feel Weir's programs have been somewhat flat and not as exciting as the earlier years. I want him to get that SPARK back for the win.