Johnny Weir vs Friends of Animals

[antmanb]

Mathman
I don't know why you chose not to comment, probably because you're not informed well.
Again, those bulls are raised for corridas only, they won't be used for any other mean, because they are not appropriate for it. This is the fact.
If you forbid the corrida, all those bulls will be killed by far more horrible death than on the corrida.
Again, those bulls can't be used to turn the soil or something like this, even if they would be used, there are too much of them and you have to take care of them, and that costs some money.

I don't understand what's the problem, I'm just telling the truth. In some places in Spain corrida is forbidden and all the bulls were killed in those places. You think that this is less cruel?

And I'm not a fan of corrida, I can't remember when I watched it for the last time. I don't really care for that tradition, neither for the bulls, but it's just amazing how some people keep caring for the bulls so much, that at the end those bulls are all dead. It's a bit strange.

I'm not Mathman, but i guess if the argument is that is all they are bred for, then i would ask, would your reaction be different if I said I want to start up a new sport for my own pleasure where I ask people to willingly surrogate babies for me. I will look after these babies and give them a great life until the age of 18 whereupon they must have gladiator style fights to the death. In the absence of my request the babies would never be born anyway?

Ant

 

[Snowgirl]

He made up his mind, others don't agree and since he is a public figure, they speak openly out against him. He obviously thinks that he is right on this; so what's the problem? Some radical Muslims may think that we (= Christian Western European Women) are a bunch of slutty heretics, I don't lose sleep over that - because in my opinion I am not a slutty heretic. Same goes for Johnny, he does nothing wrong in his opinion, why should he care if a bunch of treehuggers (including me) think so?

The problem is that they crossed the line with insults on his facebook page. Wshing someone all sorts of evil just because he doesn't share their opinion is way over the top. Though he didn't seem to care until they sent some **** to his costume designer. He says they may attack him, but wants them to get off her.

http://www.nbcolympics.com/news-features/news/newsid=401630.html#foxy+weir+under+fire

 

[taylorfax]

Wshing someone all sorts of evil just because he doesn't share their opinion is way over the top.

Yeah, great example of how anything taken to excess is not a good thing. Some of these people claim to spread the message of love etc when it comes to animals and yet in the next sentence speak of skinning humans. You know something's a little off there. Lots of hate.

Well, at least with skates, there's a huge difference. Currently, there's really no alternative to leather in high-level skates (though some have a higher degree of synthetic in things like the lining and padding). I'm a strict vegetarian who skates, and obviously wears leather skates. I don't think I should throw my diet to the wind because I love skating -- my diet is helping reduce suffering in the world, as well as the environmental impacts of the meat and dairy industries. And, since currently there's no alternative to leather skates for high-level skaters, that's what I wear. It's not an all-or-nothing scenario.

But there are certainly substitutions for the fur on his costume, unlike the leather in his skates.

Still hypocrisy. I believe when it comes to this subject, most everyone's a hypocrite. You can only speak of a level or degree of hypocrisy, I guess.
Which is why I try to never tell anyone how to live.

 

[Daniel5555]

antmanb

I'm not Mathman, but i guess if the argument is that is all they are bred for, then i would ask, would your reaction be different if I said I want to start up a new sport for my own pleasure where I ask people to willingly surrogate babies for me. I will look after these babies and give them a great life until the age of 18 whereupon they must have gladiator style fights to the death. In the absence of my request the babies would never be born anyway?

I don't know, but those are humans and they clearly have more purposes in their life than fighting. If we had to forbid your sport, your gladiators would continue to live freely.
Now with those bulls we just can't let them go everywhere and they're already born. So the farmers have to kill them.
If people hate corrida is ok, but don't say that they care about the bulls, because bulls are dying because of their actions and the whole species of those bulls may cease to exist.

Mathman

The English Bulldog is an interesting breed. They were bred for the sport of bull-baiting. A bull would be tied to a post and then the trained bulldogs would take turns jumping at its throat in an attempt to get a secure enough hold to suffocate the bull. People would lay bets on which dog would win.

By the way, as a side characteristic, this breeding program produced a dog that ranks number 77 out of 79 recognized breeds, in terms of intelligence (according to Wikipedia.)

When this "sport" fell out of favor, dog owners set to work to breed the viciousness out of the bulldog and now they are affectionate and devoted pets (if a little stubborn still.)

Thanks for information, but this won't solve the problem with thousands of already existing bulls.

 

[Mathman]

Thanks for information, but this won't solve the problem with thousands of already existing bulls.

True, it does not solve that problem.

But it does address the ethical problem inherent in a human activity that serves no other purpose than to satisfy our desire to watch animals suffer and die.

Still hypocrisy. I believe when it comes to this subject, most everyone's a hypocrite.

I don't think it is hypocrisy. Rather, I waould say, first things first.

First, we should do away with "sporting activities" that stem entirely from the pleasure we take in killing. Bow hunting, for instance. (I might also mention war. )

Then we can move on to the Johnny Weir question and consider whether we should kill foxes for no other reason than so that Weir can do a figure skating routine with a dead fox around his neck as a fashion statement.

After that we can start thinking about where leather comes from, how to make more humane bug-zappers, and the other issues that have been raised on this thread.

To me, the bottom line is this. The difference between humans and other animals is not so great as we, in our puffed-up sense of self-importance, imagine.

 

[antmanb]

I don't know, but those are humans and they clearly have more purposes in their life than fighting. If we had to forbid your sport, your gladiators would continue to live freely.
Now with those bulls we just can't let them go everywhere and they're already born. So the farmers have to kill them.

That's the part I don't understand - why is the only solution to kill them? Why can't they be kept in whatever pasture they currently live in until they die and not replace them?

If people hate corrida is ok, but don't say that they care about the bulls, because bulls are dying because of their actions and the whole species of those bulls may cease to exist.

Why can't they say it is because of the bulls? Personally I eat meat and wear leather shoes, and don't feel remotely guilty about it. If i had to kill the meat I eat I'm sure i'd be vegetarian pretty quickly Am I a hypocrite? Probably, i just can't understand where the sport is in killing a drugged animal that is halfway to bleeding to death? We act all morally outraged if a human is found guilty of animal abuse or causing it's death in the privacy of their own home, but if we dress it up as sport and do it in front of an audience, it's suddenly ok. Why is it not ok to have dogs fight each other, but it is ok for a human to "fight" a bull?

I just don't really understand....but then these things are rarely black and white. Also i don't buy the "tradition" angle on these things, since there are many examples throughout history where traditions have been dropped because they are no appropriate to a civilised society.

The thing i really don't understand is the running of the bull - is it in Pamplona where they let the bull run through the streets and then people are surprised when people are hurt I think that's absolutely crazy - why do people go to it knowing the risk of injury. Personally I root for the bull - he doesn't know any better, the people in the street crossing their fingers hoping they won't end up with a horn through a lung....should know better

Ant

 

[Tonichelle]

why should he care if a bunch of treehuggers (including me) think so?

aren't you "bunny huggers" since this is an animal/fur issue and not a deforrestation issue?

Bow hunting, for instance.

whoa, whoa, WHOA. Bow hunting is NOT just for sport. My dad hunts with a bow in areas where guns are not allowed or where they might be dangerous to humans and animals not in his crosshairs... he's PROVIDED FOOD for our family with that.

hate to break it to you but not everyone can just skip on down to the grocery store and afford food and everything else for their family. not with milk at $5 + a gallon (more in the villages) and fruit and veggies at $4 a lbs and up.

Why can't they be kept in whatever pasture they currently live in until they die and not replace them?

Like with sled dogs - think of the cost it takes to raise, care, and feed for those animals. Without the $$ the comes in from the sport that goes back into the animal care, how is the poor farmer going to take care of them? It's more humane to put down teh animals than to watch them suffer and die from starvation or disease.

 

[Wicked]

I'm vegetarian, love animals, am against animal cruelty, and love Johnny. He's allowed to make his choices and I'm allowed to make mine. To me, his wearing of fur isn't a deal breaker to being his fan. It might be for some. I think the issue that PETA and FoA have with him is that he makes fur wearing a big deal. He doesn't wear fur quietly.

 

[Tonichelle]

even quietly they'd cause a big stir. been there, done that, will be dealing with it again in a month and a half up here. joy of all joys. how I *love* those people. :sheesh:

 

[Medusa]

aren't you "bunny huggers" since this is an animal/fur issue and not a deforrestation issue?

I would call myself a very pragmatic tree-hugger to begin with, since I think that humans should always come first. But only as far as their survival is concerned. The natives on Greenland or in other arctic areas should be allowed to hunt whales for their own needs, you up there in Alaska should be allowed to hunt your animals for your own needs and in order to protect yourselves. And yes, in tropic areas it should always be allowed to kill as many mosquitoes / insects as possible, to limit the spread of diseases.

I eat meat. I buy my meat etc. at a farmer about a mile from here, about twice a week (which is the standard recommendation where I live). I started that after I read stuff about the factory farming - and I didn't consider that kind of treatment of animals to be honourable.

Everything has it's limits. Animals should be treated with dignity. Their death shouldn't be taken lightly, their death should have some sort of meaning, as in helping a family in Greenland to survive the winter. As in ensuring that a flock of sheep in the Carpathian Mountains will be protected from a wolf, because their wool, meat and milk provides for some Ukrainian family. As in providing humans all around the world with important nutrients, that are not easily replaced, especially in certain regions.

And being the fashion accessory for some self-proclaimed diva is not what I would call a meaning. Having badly suffered for being that fashion accessory is just horrible. It is completely unnecessary.

 

[Daniel5555]

antmanb

That's the part I don't understand - why is the only solution to kill them? Why can't they be kept in whatever pasture they currently live in until they die and not replace them?

Well, first of all those bulls are procreating, so in order to stop that, you'll have to castrate them all. Then the pastures are isolated (because the bulls are dangerous for people) and very wide, at least you will have to pay land taxes for them and if the land is not yours is worse.
It's not that easy. A bull for the corrida costs around €12000, while a common bull costs €4000.

Why can't they say it is because of the bulls?

They say they love those animals, but it's ok if they die in a butchery. It's a bit strange. If they hate to watch them dying, no one forces them to watch the corrida in the first place.
There is some inconsistency in this.

Probably, i just can't understand where the sport is in killing a drugged animal that is halfway to bleeding to death?

First of all, it's not drugged. That bull is really fast and furious, so the bullfighter is in danger too. The thing is that this bull is dumb, so if you know how to deal with it, is not that dangerous.

I don't understand why you always call it "sport". It's not a sport. It's considered "art" by some people, but I never heard that is considered as "sport" by someone.

Why is it not ok to have dogs fight each other, but it is ok for a human to "fight" a bull?

I think that, probably, both things are not OK, but there is too much overreaction about it. And I can understand those who want to preserve this tradition. It's really that old and it is said that bullfighters have a lot of respect for those bulls, they are not killing them sadistically, actually the point is to kill the bull with one hit, but it's hard to do so.

If corrida ceases to exist some part of Spanish culture will be lost among with the bulls. I don't really care for that part though.

Personally I think that sports like boxing are much more cruel than this, because it's about two people beating each other with no reason. Yes, they both are willing to do so, but I think it's cruel and overall wrong. But sports like those are widely loved while they don't have any cultural value at all.

The thing i really don't understand is the running of the bull - is it in Pamplona where they let the bull run through the streets and then people are surprised when people are hurt I think that's absolutely crazy - why do people go to it knowing the risk of injury. Personally I root for the bull - he doesn't know any better, the people in the street crossing their fingers hoping they won't end up with a horn through a lung....should know better

Yeah. Pamplona is not the only one place where they do so. Besides corridas and runnings there are a lot of traditions involving bulls, in some of them the bull is killed at the end, in others only humans can be hurt. In some places one bull runs after people while it's horns have flaming torches attached to them. I don't get this tradition...

Anyway, if you're looking for the stupid traditions, the Spain is the place to go, because here we have a lot of them Some of them without animals, but still stupid

 

[gio]

ITA with Mathman and Medusa!!!

 

[kate]

I would call myself a very pragmatic tree-hugger to begin with, since I think that humans should always come first. But only as far as their survival is concerned. The natives on Greenland or in other arctic areas should be allowed to hunt whales for their own needs, you up there in Alaska should be allowed to hunt your animals for your own needs and in order to protect yourselves. And yes, in tropic areas it should always be allowed to kill as many mosquitoes / insects as possible, to limit the spread of diseases.

I like that -- pragmatic tree hugger. I never said wearing skates while being a strict vegetarian wasn't hypocritical, but there's a degree of hypocrisy in everything we do. Frankly, I don't think I should say "oh, I like to skate so I might as well just eat meat then." I also don't tell people how to live their lives. I may tell them the choices I've made, and why I've made those choices (particularly, the facts that have informed those choices), but I wouldn't attempt to choose for an adult.

None of that changes the fact that there's a difference between skates, for which there is no substitute for leather (at high levels), and fur, which doesn't need to be on a costume.

 

[seniorita]

Lol weir just appeared on my greek yahoo frontpage news also , about the fur, this is what you discussing here?

 

[Nadine]

Haven't bothered to read this thread (will do so later), but came here because I just now read on the NBC site about what Johnny had to say about putting humans before animals.:disagree: We ALL come from God, Johnny, not just humans. Man's superiority over animals & nature just pisses me off.

I'm no longer a fan of Johnny, no matter how nice he is to his fans. I used to be a fan of his skating, not necessarily his personality, which I really haven't cared for. But now that's not even the case. In fact, I've always thought he was immature, and still think so, especially with his latest spewing.

He's entitled to his opinion, of course, but so am I, so am I.

 

[tilak]

Haven't bothered to read this thread (will do so later), but came here because I just now read on the NBC site about what Johnny had to say about putting humans before animals.:disagree: We ALL come from God, Johnny, not just humans. Man's superiority over animals & nature just pisses me off.

I'm no longer a fan of Johnny, no matter how nice he is to his fans. I used to be a fan of his skating, not necessarily his personality, which I really haven't cared for. But now that's not even the case. In fact, I've always thought he was immature, and still think so, especially with his latest spewing.

He's entitled to his opinion, of course, but so am I, so am I.

The first thing to come to mind when I read a post like this is, "Are you a strict vegetarian?" If you are then I would be more inclined to take what you have to say more seriously. Just my opinion.

 

[taylorfax]

We ALL come from God

Really now?

Let's not at least pull the God card in this thread, it's already charged enough.

 

[Nadine]

Like I said I'm entitled to my opinion, same as Johnny, same as Johnny.

Let the little boy have his 15 minutes of fame, or more, enjoy the spotlight, be controversial, maybe get a SOI gig from it, or another runway offer. Try to be Toller Cranston II.

Over & out, I've said my piece. And will say no more on the subject.

 

[lcd]

This too falls in the "any publicity - good or bad - is good publicity" for some characters in the world of sports and entertainment category.

 

[Tonichelle]

This too falls in the "any publicity - good or bad - is good publicity" for some characters in the world of sports and entertainment category.

and friends of animals

I think both sides are wrong... but their intentions/rights are good...