Jump technique discussion

[gravy]

can anyone point out a skater with good Salchow technique? I learned the jumps from watching Yuna (since many of her jumps are pretty solid) but have heard her Salchow technique isn't that great, so I am wondering what a great salchow looks like

Joannie has my favorite salchow. Her free leg is high above the ice as she scoops in for the take-off.

https://youtu.be/BedH69e7PR0?t=21

Most skaters take off with both blades on the ice and it really irritates me because: 1. it looks really ugly, 2. you get an extra assist by pushing off both feet making it easier to execute. Men commonly use this technique for their quad salchows (Hanyu, Fernandez) but others (like Brezina) do not.

 

[Franklin99]

can anyone point out a skater with good Salchow technique? I learned the jumps from watching Yuna (since many of her jumps are pretty solid) but have heard her Salchow technique isn't that great, so I am wondering what a great salchow looks like

Liza has good Salchow technique. I don't think Yuna Sal technique is that good, it's just ok. But I love her Flip. That to me is her best jump. Like Mao and her Loop, and Liza and her Lutz.

 

[aromaticchicken]

Gracies salchow is usually considered pretty solid too, which is why it's normally her second half combo

 

[karne]

But IMO: salchow is my least favorite jump, is just so mechanically awkward looking to me...

Salchow is my least favourite jump, and trust me, the mechanics are no less awkward to actually do than to watch!

 

[hurrah]

Risa Shoji is meant to have a good salchow:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYX_h4HiB60&feature=player_detailpage#t=45

And Shizuka, of course:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SauJKulmYlU&feature=player_detailpage#t=52

 

[lyverbird1]

Can I ask some of the experts out there about one jumping technique I always found curious and it used to drive me mad - Elena Liashenko's jumping technique, particularly on the lutz. What was that curious leg raise all about?

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Can I ask some of the experts out there about one jumping technique I always found curious and it used to drive me mad - Elena Liashenko's jumping technique, particularly on the lutz. What was that curious leg raise all about?

When she picked up her right foot right before the jump? It's very odd...to me it looks like the body rocking from forward to back would disrupt the rotation.

 

[viscabarca]

I like Carolina’s Lutz and Loop, SoYoun's Salchow and Karen's Axel.
Questions
How does second-up(Team Kori Ade) work? Is that phisically and scientifically logical ?
For most correct Lutz,the outside edge goes deeper before the tap.But I found that Alexei Yagudin’s went shallower,and then straight into counterclockwise rotation,the clockwise momentum did not seem to have much impact. Is that OK?
Sorry for my bad English:hopelessness:

 

[randomfan]

Here is the list for the ladies who I think have the best jumping techniques for these jumps:

3A: Mao Asada (I personally grew more to her 3A more than anyone elses, even more than Midori Ito or Elizaveta Tuktamysheva)
3Lz: Yuna Kim, Elizaveta Tuktamysheva
3F: Yuna Kim, Carolina Kostner
3Lo: Ashley Wagner (TBH, I really don't know; I just like Ashley's 3Lo)
3S: So Youn Park
3T: Elizaveta Tuktamysheva

Honorable Mentions:
Zijun Li, Mirai Nagasu, Karen Chen: 3Lo
They don't have the best technique, but they do have that small twirl for the entry which seems to generally work because I haven't seen them fall on the jump before.
Carolina Kostner: 3Lz
This technique can go beside Yuna and Elizaveta, but the problem is that the take-off preparation is a bit too long.
Kanako Murakami: 3T
Rather than saying it's a good jumping technique, I find it more unique that even with a seemingly difficult technique, Kanako is able to land a 3T-3T using this technique.

 

[rollerblade]

So, does anyone here know more about the triple axel technique than Yagudin?

So, it could be argued that higher the GOE, better the jump. If you jump higher, wider with more entry/exit speed and/or with more transitions before and after the jump, with delayed rotation, you will get better GOEs. And that's what a good jump (technique) is, according to CoP.

I'm not going to claim I know more about 3A technique than Yagudin, but Yan Han has my vote for the best 3A in the business. Sure, Hanyu has that swishy "out of nowhere" entry, but Yan's triple axel has that floaty natural curve quality that I don't see in other men. His 3A entry was done with a wide stroke without needing extra knee-bend to provide more lift; not to mention the trajectory that covers half the rink!

 

[solani]

For most correct Lutz,the outside edge goes deeper before the tap.But I found that Alexei Yagudin’s went shallower,and then straight into counterclockwise rotation,the clockwise momentum did not seem to have much impact. Is that OK?

Right before the takeoff many skaters bend their takeoff leg further to get more momentum when they jump, that's why the edge goes deeper. This is not necessary and Yagudin didn't do that.
Tuktamysheva doesn't do that either and her lutz is just incredible, not only because of the height she gets, but also because her reach back before the toepick is really minimal. That's what makes this jump look so effortless.

 

[hurrah]

Han Yan's triple axel is indeed very impressive for the width that he covers with the jump, but his technique is rather limiting at the same time in that:

1. he can only do it early in the program when his legs aren't tired
2. his triple axel success is not that great---he tends to fall
3. his triple axel is like Carolina's lutz---the jump itself is great, but it is a good deal telegraphed, requiring a long set up time

The extra knee bend allows for a shorter setup time with more transitions before the jump, such that the jump is better integrated into the music and program.

In terms of CoP potential, Hanyu's triple axel technique is far better.

 

[HanDomi]

In terms of handling 3A I think Hanyu has the best ever natural control of that jump. I never seen anyone having such natural control over 3A. In terms of pure technique on jump I think russians are overall good in having strong good technique on 3A - Mishin school

 

[matmuh]

Han Yan's triple axel is indeed very impressive for the width that he covers with the jump, but his technique is rather limiting at the same time in that:

1. he can only do it early in the program when his legs aren't tired
2. his triple axel success is not that great---he tends to fall
3. his triple axel is like Carolina's lutz---the jump itself is great, but it is a good deal telegraphed, requiring a long set up time

The extra knee bend allows for a shorter setup time with more transitions before the jump, such that the jump is better integrated into the music and program.

In terms of CoP potential, Hanyu's triple axel technique is far better.

i am not an expert at all but i agree, Han has amazing 3A when he lands, but thats the problem, i think he goes into it with so much speed and he doesnt have the control over his landing , i think its like that with most of his jumps
and for yuzuru its not like his 3A is small, his is really big too with many different entries (not just "out of nowhere"), even from standstill, and he has amazing control and flow at his landings

 

[hurrah]

As Yagudin says, I am of the opinion that there is no such thing as the perfect technique. If you can do it, then you've got the technique that best suits your physical abilities. I think that you do in fact have to have innate control ability to jump the 3-axel with the knee bend. So that technique only works for people with innate talent to coordinate yourself physically. As long as the jumper doesn't sacrifice entry speed, exit speed, height, width of the jump with the knee bend, then that cannot be called bad technique. It's just that the skater has more innate coordinating talent.

 

[Globetrotter]

Among the current guys, Hanyu has the best axel technique while the most effortless quad will be Javi's 4S. Otherwise, the most effortless jumps I have ever seen must be Ilia Kulik. The soft butter landings are to die for.

Among ladies, the ideal jumper will have Yuna's entrance, fast, quick, sure, and Carolina's outflow at full speed and extension. Liza Tuks has the best basics in jumps overall but I notice that she generally does the jumps off the inside edges more poorly (flip, salchow). However, she still remains one of the few females with all the complete triple with no edge issues. 3A ladies clearly will be Ito who is best but her technique is too unique and I doubt it can be readily replicated. Asada has better musicality on her 3A but Tuks is more reassuring. Kostner has probably the most reassured salchow jump and her loop is impressive but it does look like she has better success when she enters the 3R on the difficult running 3 turns rather than the conventional cross legged entrance. Yuna has the most assuring 3Lz3T but solo lutz wise, Tuks has the best height, speed and effortless coverage.

 

[aromaticchicken]

Best quad toe in the world in history should still going to Chengjiang Li. Yuzurus is a close second

 

[plushyfan]

Joshua's 3A is lovely For me, his 3A is currently one of my favourites, which includes Hanyu's, Han Yan's and Denis Ten's. And whatever Plushenko has been doing and is still doing, works. Not sure if that is technique but I don't remember the last time I saw him fall on his jumps.

That is the perfect technique. Mishin taught him the perfect technique this is the reason why he can jump after the so many pauses of his career...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AXhDgkKDfw&t=1m9s perfect! 1998 he was 15. ( I like Mr Button's unbiased comentary )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpLVaQGV2BI&t=1m38s he was 17 perfect 3A. Listen to the American commentators...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ieMEfklmuI&t=1m15s 2006

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqbQpiriYCU&t=1h14m50s 2010 difficoult outflow

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NklNkWET0Y4&t=1m15s 2015 look at that flow!

Plushy's quads:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7WXLsJlAiw&t=0m55s Seriously, what is it if that is not perfect technique???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aet6BM14kCU&t=0m20s also... When Plushy does a bad jump then most of skaters would fall...

Many skaters have lovely 3A. My favorites are Oda, Han Yan, Brezina, Hanyu's 3A..


I found it on Youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGvtcifWsiE Best quad Toe Loop jumps compilation

 

[xibsuarz]

I found it on Youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGvtcifWsiE Best quad Toe Loop jumps compilation

Wow, I didn't know Joubert had landed over 100 quads!

 

[Meoima]

Yuzuru's 3A when he was 15 (World Junior) https://youtu.be/pr2ldzvTGgw?t=2m50s