Kamila Valieva: Anti-doping Case and Follow-ups

[RatedPG]

One thing I've found extremely hard is to make peace with my own stance and with myself about how I feel.

I adore Kamila. I want her to skate. I want her to win. But I fully understand the enormous issues with that and how unfair it is on all the other competitors. Yet on a human, mothering and emotional level I can't bring myself to want Kamila banished from the competition.

Frankly it is a very uncomfortable feeling which is why I've given up arguing with others. How can I when I'm not even sure what my views are?

This message captures exactly how I feel. Thanks for posting this.

 

[RatedPG]

It's also ok to figure out your stance as you go,
don't let it ruin your beauty sleep

Too late. I’m up at 2AM catching up on the rhythm dance and then got sidetracked with this forum. Thanks for presenting your side of this situation. It is through discussion with others who have a different view than myself, where I learn and grow the most. So, thanks

 

[Fanof]

Other than Adam Rippon, Katarina Witt, Romain H (P/C coach) ... who else from the figure skating community have spoken about the doping controversy?

I agree with all that Polina Edmunds wrote...

"I hope this is the final wake up call @ISU_Figure needs to change the direction of women’s skating. Awarding the technical over all else is dangerous to the integrity of our sport, and many more athletes will continue to suffer the consequences, in health, if not stopped."

"Too many clean athletes have injured themselves trying to achieve the new technical standard. A standard set at with an unfair advantage point, if we’re being truthful. No protection for the athletes, no limitations placed for their safety, just sensationalized exploitation."

"Nobody needs medals at the price of their health.
Nobody needs this female quad revolution at the cost of clean sports."

"While the focus should be on the adults responsible for allowing usage of a banned substance, that cannot excuse the athlete at ANY AGE. Kamila has recieved all the titles and medals. Allowing her a pass bc “she’s a minor” is unfair to the clean athletes who have the same dreams."

"A very important thread (https://twitter.com/mossyzinc/status/1492138622270812169) highlighting just how many young athletes have been harmed by the same coaching team in the last 8 years. This many injuries forcing retirement in their TEENAGE years…exploitation for medals is real and it needs to be stopped."

 

[Scott512]

As soon as an athlete tests positive, it's over... there is no need to consider further tests. It would be absolutely normal they would be negative as the substance is no longer detectable. Once an athlete tests positive, they get a suspension retroactive to the date of the sample, erasing the data from other events... So Kamila, if her suspension gets confirmed "never competed at Euros or Beijing" and we can even say that she never tested for Euros and Beijing.. she was not even there.

I gather her suspension will be confirmed today and then who decides on the length of the suspension the ioc only?

I think we all want more information about about things we don't know about that the IOC and the Russian's know. Whatever happens with the Immediate suspension I would imagine it would be for Kamila as a minor athlete. hopefully this will enable her to get back on the ice competitively in less than a year. But there will probably be further investigations and things like that to find out how this about how to send it up in her s

Hoping KV can get home soon and start her road to recovering emotionally. Adults have damaged this girl's reputation and career and I just hope she can recover from it and still be a fabulous skater who entertains so many. I've been saying for years the Russians need new leadership in their sports department. Where do they go from here? Putin needs to shake things up and get some fresh blood in there.

 

[RatedPG]

I see your point and appreciate your balanced view. Of course there is a non-0% possibility that the sample was contaminated during the testing process at the Swedish lab, be it on purpose or by mistake. That is why every athlete is given the opportunity to appeal against the suspension, as Kamila and her team did. In anti-doping law the burden of prove is on the athlete as soon as a positive sample is found, so whatever our moral standpoint might be, legally "innocent until proven guilty" does not apply in this case. Kamila's lawyers will have to prove the sample was contaminated, not the other way round.

Regarding the provisional suspension, imo, there is no other possibility than to exclude any athlete with a positive test from competition until the case is resolved (or the period of provisional suspension is over). The system just cannot work in any other way, or we would have athletes with positives tests competing and winning medals only for them to be rescinded later all the time as those legal proceedings to reach a final verdict can take forever.
And it hurts other athletes as it takes away their podium moments and in this age of social media also potential monetary benefits from them. Posters in this thread have already brought up Loena Hendrickx who had to start a gofundme to collect money for her trip to the Olympics. Just imagine if she would have won the bronze medal at Europeans and maybe posted a picture on her insta. Some Belgian sports gear store or whatever could have seen it and decided it would be good publicity for them to sponsor the Euro bronze medallist's trip to Beijing. So yes, if we look at the bigger picture, Kamila competing or not affects a lot of people.

I didn’t know this about poor Loena …. One of my favourites. That is so sad. I thought her fourth place was good enough and that due to her talent, that she had enough sponsors, etc. If she is struggling, imagine what the lower placements at Europeans go through. That is why I have a soft spot for all these athletes.

 

[solani]

If, as it was said, the provisional suspension was lifted because the athlet could prove everything had happened because of a contaminated product, well, it means that no one expects anything from the B sample...

If that's the defense then they won't ask for the B sample to be opened and tested. Because it's unnecessary if there is an explanation for the positive test. They accept the result.
The explanation must be very very good.

 

[Draculus]

but its still known in public as of now that other girls that have been at one of eteris trainingscamp gave the info that they were handed boxes with pills ehich were said to be vitamins but they never really got an explanation as to what vitamins or supplements they wer

"its still known to public" that Earth is flat, Americans never been to the Moon, most judges across the world are so corrupt so Eteri pays all of them and her skaters have a constant permanent bonus, Sasha was the first girl who started to jumps quads...

 

[florin]

No it wouldn't be. It's not like the sample has "Kamila Valieva, Russia" written in bold letters all over it. The samples are anonymous. For all you'd know, you could just as well be analysing the sample of the winner of the latest Swedish national sheep shearing competition...

I think this is incorrect. Here's what knowledgeable people write:

I think there is some misunderstanding about what exactly the laboratory knows when an athlete's sample comes to them. They know not only the sample number, contrary to the claims.

The International Standard for Laboratories clearly prescribes what exactly the laboratory receives at the entrance. But it is much easier for me to look at one of the laboratory packages related to the cases that we conducted – there is all the documentation that the laboratory receives with samples.

The sample comes, as a rule, not alone, but as part of package of samples. This packet is accompanied by a transport protocol that contains the following information:

1. Which samples are in the package - competitive or not.
2. Testing mission code
3. Testing location
4. Type of sport
6. Date of the competition
7. Number of samples
8. End time of sampling
9. Sample numbers and information about which add. analyses should be carried out with each (EPO, growth hormone, etc.)
10. Transport information, who, when, to whom this package of samples was transmitted.

Then for each sample there is an individual copy of the doping control protocol. This copy contains the following data:

1. Gender of the athlete
2. Age of the athlete
3. Test date
4. Competitive trial or not
5. Type of sport
6. Sports division (dance, pair, etc)
7. Urine volume
8. Urine density
9. Sample number
10. List of medications specified by the athlete

That is, in the case of Valieva, the laboratory knew that this was a competitive sample of a 15-year-old single skater taken on December 25 in St. Petersburg. Having such introductory notes, you can simply take the protocol of the Russian Championship competitions and see how many 15-year-old singles performed there.

They were Valeeva, Muravyeva, Khromykh, Sviridenko. It is clear that there is a very high chance that the sample received by the laboratory belongs to the prize-winner, and not to the athletes who took places from 6th to 16th. In such a simple way, it was possible to understand with a 90% probability that this was a Valieva sample.

 

[Magill]

What is the maximum suspension they can give an under 16 year old athlete who tested positive?

2 years.

 

[readernick]

I understand why people are conflicted about this. In terms of Kamila's feelings, I am also conflicted. Seeing her cry is heartbreaking. There is no positive outcome to this situation.

However, in terms of the suspicion and in terms of punishment that is required, I am not conflicted. And, I will tell you why I am not. I have worked with kids and teenagers all around the world and I have never seen a kid purposefully hurt by a stranger. Do you know who hurts kids? Those who are close to them. Every instance of childhood abuse that I have seen was from a friend, coach, family member, teacher, etc... So, if this is the one in a thousand cases where it's someone else other than the people around Kamila responsible, I will be thrilled that she wasn't betrayed by the adults who should protect her. But, I have never seen anything that would suggest this team isn't capable of doing anything possible to win and I have never seen a child abused by someone they didn't know. People always want to blame "the other" the stranger, the shadowy figure, the jealous country, the Swedish lab... etc etc etc but almost everyone who is hurt is hurt by someone they know. Nothing I have seen to this point has made me believe this is the exception. So, Kamila's team needs to be punished, and suspending her is the first required step in this process.

Anyway, I hope Kamila gets help from a therapist or psychologist as soon as she gets home. I hope she finds people who truly want to protect her.

 

[Draculus]

Substances are put on the banned substance list for a reason

If you add 'medical' before reason, then it is wrong. For sure there was some reason but it was far away from medicine.
F.e. arguments for meldonium ban was like
“[It] demonstrates an increase in endurance performance of athletes, improved rehabilitation after exercise, protection against stress, and enhanced activations of central nervous system (CNS) functions.”
"excessive and inappropriate use in a generally heathy athlete population."
"A study conducted at the European Games in June 2015 and later published by the British Journal of Sports Medicine found 66 of 762 athletes taking meldonium"
So there is a drug, it's working, it is used - let's ban it, it is our job, isn't it? WADA knowledge of meldonium was so bad that they didn't even know proper it's pharmacokinetics and lifetime (so they later had to change their "norms"), but they still ban it. Not because they did some studies and show ppl health become worse BECAUSE of meldomium. Double blind experiments, statistical inference corrections? Cmon, what are these magical spells?

I do not know the reasons behind it but it was definitely not medical. I would say that it is a kind of automatic properties of any controlling entity - rules become stricter and stricter, they just produce it, it is their 'nature'.
In "normal" law we have standard trinity of parlament-enforcement-court, so those properties are kind of 'controlled'
But it doping world it is united in a single entity AND there is no Presumption of innocence.

So imagine your life in a country where normal laws are created, enforced and judged by the same entity, AND you have "to prove you are not a camel" as Russians say.

 

[florin]

So, Kamila's team needs to be punished, and suspending her is the first required step in this process.

This whole hypocritical post was written just for the sake of it.

I absolutely do not understand where this comes from this "So, team needs..." Why is that?

For some reason, you all stubbornly avoid the version of accidental contamination. And I understand why - "Carthage must be destroyed" Anything but take TT out of the game!

 

[fabienne1996]

"its still known to public" that Earth is flat, Americans never been to the Moon, most judges across the world are so corrupt so Eteri pays all of them and her skaters have a constant permanent bonus, Sasha was the first girl who started to jumps quads...

https://twitter.com/_epigraphs/status/1492218319784460291?t=6FDPaWKBShGiuCXsB9sSXg&s=19

 

[florin]

https://twitter.com/_epigraphs/status/1492218319784460291?t=6FDPaWKBShGiuCXsB9sSXg&s=19

Seriously? Pathetic

 

[Scott512]

2 years.

Thanks. Will it be 2 years which would be almost certainly ruining her compegifive career or will it be the 9 to 12 months where she can still come back and have a phenomenal career entertaining fans like she does?

If they take mercy on KV I hope it will be assured her suspension. But the IOC is dealing with Russia who they've had a lot of problems with so I don't know if she will get any breaks.

 

[florin]

If you add 'medical' before reason, then it is wrong. For sure there was some reason but it was far away from medicine.
F.e. arguments for meldonium ban was like
“[It] demonstrates an increase in endurance performance of athletes, improved rehabilitation after exercise, protection against stress, and enhanced activations of central nervous system (CNS) functions.”
"excessive and inappropriate use in a generally heathy athlete population."
"A study conducted at the European Games in June 2015 and later published by the British Journal of Sports Medicine found 66 of 762 athletes taking meldonium"
So there is a drug, it's working, it is used - let's ban it, it is our job, isn't it? WADA knowledge of meldonium was so bad that they didn't even know proper it's pharmacokinetics and lifetime (so they later had to change their "norms"), but they still ban it. Not because they did some studies and show ppl health become worse BECAUSE of meldomium. Double blind experiments, statistical inference corrections? Cmon, what are these magical spells?

I do not know the reasons behind it but it was definitely not medical. I would say that it is a kind of automatic properties of any controlling entity - rules become stricter and stricter, they just produce it, it is their 'nature'.
In "normal" law we have standard trinity of parlament-enforcement-court, so those properties are kind of 'controlled'
But it doping world it is united in a single entity AND there is no Presumption of innocence.

So imagine your life in a country where normal laws are created, enforced and judged by the same entity, AND you have "to prove you are not a camel" as Russians say.

And what makes me especially angry is that for the ignorant crowd this is a magic pill that turns Karen Chen into Kamila Valieva.

 

[Mista Ekko]

Thanks. Will it be 2 years which would be almost certainly ruining her compegifive career or will it be the 9 to 12 months where she can still come back and have a phenomenal career entertaining fans like she does?

If they take mercy on KV I hope it will be assured her suspension. But the IOC is dealing with Russia who they've had a lot of problems with so I don't know if she will get any breaks.

I'm truly intrigued as to what their decision will end up being here,
it could be so many things influenced by a bunch of factors,
with an international magnifying glass hovering over.

 

[doreen95]

If you add 'medical' before reason, then it is wrong. For sure there was some reason but it was far away from medicine.
F.e. arguments for meldonium ban was like
“[It] demonstrates an increase in endurance performance of athletes, improved rehabilitation after exercise, protection against stress, and enhanced activations of central nervous system (CNS) functions.”
"excessive and inappropriate use in a generally heathy athlete population."
"A study conducted at the European Games in June 2015 and later published by the British Journal of Sports Medicine found 66 of 762 athletes taking meldonium"
So there is a drug, it's working, it is used - let's ban it, it is our job, isn't it? WADA knowledge of meldonium was so bad that they didn't even know proper it's pharmacokinetics and lifetime (so they later had to change their "norms"), but they still ban it. Not because they did some studies and show ppl health become worse BECAUSE of meldomium. Double blind experiments, statistical inference corrections? Cmon, what are these magical spells?

I do not know the reasons behind it but it was definitely not medical. I would say that it is a kind of automatic properties of any controlling entity - rules become stricter and stricter, they just produce it, it is their 'nature'.
In "normal" law we have standard trinity of parlament-enforcement-court, so those properties are kind of 'controlled'
But it doping world it is united in a single entity AND there is no Presumption of innocence.

So imagine your life in a country where normal laws are created, enforced and judged by the same entity, AND you have "to prove you are not a camel" as Russians say.

If a drug "demonstrates an increase in endurance performance of athletes" than that is a good enough reason to be banned...
(Btw, it is not the task of the WADA to do research. They rely on the findings of other research institutes, universities, medical schools, etc.)

 

[fabienne1996]

Seriously? Pathetic

no but you also do not even want to hear or think that it could be more than just once, as you have shown the past i dont know how many pages of so no need to discuss anything with you really. i hope to everything that it isnt like that but sadly is may be a possibility.

 

[florin]

no but you also do not even want to hear or think that it could be more than just once, as you have shown the past i dont know how many pages of so no need to discuss anything with you really. i hope to everything that it isnt like that but sadly is may be a possibility.

Вo you realize that you are literally spreading gossip?