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Cruella deVille? JUST KIDDING!
Kamila Valieva: Anti-doping Case and Follow-ups
- Thread starter GS Forum Staff
- Start date
After reflecting on everything that has transpired, I’ve taken the stance of being pro Kamila competing at the Olympic individual event. Usually I’m all for banning athletes that take any banned substance. If the results came out in January prior to the Olympic Games, ROC could have put Elizaveta in the team as part of the individual event instead, and Anna and Alexandra could have won the gold for Team Russia. There would be no question about ROC winning the gold medal 
and the ceremony would already have taken place and everyone in the Team event would have been satisfied. This result affects many participants and the delay of these results has put everyone involved in a terrible position.
Usually when athletes lose their medals, it is due to testing positive at the event they participated in, and then this results in immediate suspension of the athlete. This happens with all the track athletes that tested positive and lost their medals, as a result of testing positive at the event they participated in. No arguement there. But, here, the testing organization took their sweet time and gave a result for an event back in December. I used to work in a DNA testing laboratory. The normal cases we would have are paternity and maternity DNA tests and we would give our customer results within 5-7 business days as we would perform the work in sequential order of receiving samples. When an RCMP officer comes in with a criminal case, demanding immediate results due to its importance, we would expedite and be able to give a result in 2-3 business days. They need results right away for their legal trials and we were required to provide results ASAP. The reason why I say this, is because, what we have here, is the top female figure skater in the world. She won Russian Nationals, so it would be of utmost importance to give back a result associated with Kamila and the other qualified athletes right away. This result is contingent on ensuring the top athletes that competed fairly qualify to the most important event of their lives. Really, this result needed to come out before the next event, which, was Europeans. If you have been given the assignment to perform tests for Russian participants qualifying to Europeans and Olympic Games, you need to make sure the results become available right away, before the next event. No excuses. I need justification of why it took so long to get a result and why did the result come out during the middle of the Olympic Games, one day after Team event result. It looks purposeful to maximize exposure and that agitates me. It makes it seem like the laboratory had a motive to cause RUS the biggest negative impact. So, my stance is that the laboratory needs to be accountable for not providing this result prior to Europeans. There is a chain of custody question that comes in to play here, if a result comes out much later, the results of the sample has a higher chance of becoming contaminated. These are all valid questions that come in to play. Basically, the longer it takes to give out a result, the more questionable would be the given results. These need to be addressed and both parties need lawyers to get to the bottom of everything. But, in the meantime, Kamila only has this one opportunity for something she has trained her entire life to achieve. So, in my opinion, let her compete, and then deal with legal aspects of this situation, afterwards.
and the ceremony would already have taken place and everyone in the Team event would have been satisfied. This result affects many participants and the delay of these results has put everyone involved in a terrible position.Usually when athletes lose their medals, it is due to testing positive at the event they participated in, and then this results in immediate suspension of the athlete. This happens with all the track athletes that tested positive and lost their medals, as a result of testing positive at the event they participated in. No arguement there. But, here, the testing organization took their sweet time and gave a result for an event back in December. I used to work in a DNA testing laboratory. The normal cases we would have are paternity and maternity DNA tests and we would give our customer results within 5-7 business days as we would perform the work in sequential order of receiving samples. When an RCMP officer comes in with a criminal case, demanding immediate results due to its importance, we would expedite and be able to give a result in 2-3 business days. They need results right away for their legal trials and we were required to provide results ASAP. The reason why I say this, is because, what we have here, is the top female figure skater in the world. She won Russian Nationals, so it would be of utmost importance to give back a result associated with Kamila and the other qualified athletes right away. This result is contingent on ensuring the top athletes that competed fairly qualify to the most important event of their lives. Really, this result needed to come out before the next event, which, was Europeans. If you have been given the assignment to perform tests for Russian participants qualifying to Europeans and Olympic Games, you need to make sure the results become available right away, before the next event. No excuses. I need justification of why it took so long to get a result and why did the result come out during the middle of the Olympic Games, one day after Team event result. It looks purposeful to maximize exposure and that agitates me. It makes it seem like the laboratory had a motive to cause RUS the biggest negative impact. So, my stance is that the laboratory needs to be accountable for not providing this result prior to Europeans. There is a chain of custody question that comes in to play here, if a result comes out much later, the results of the sample has a higher chance of becoming contaminated. These are all valid questions that come in to play. Basically, the longer it takes to give out a result, the more questionable would be the given results. These need to be addressed and both parties need lawyers to get to the bottom of everything. But, in the meantime, Kamila only has this one opportunity for something she has trained her entire life to achieve. So, in my opinion, let her compete, and then deal with legal aspects of this situation, afterwards.
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2009
After reflecting on everything that has transpired, I’ve taken the stance of being pro Kamila competing at the Olympic individual event. Usually I’m all for banning athletes that take any banned substance. If the results came out in January prior to the Olympic Games, ROC could have put Elizaveta in the team as part of the individual event instead, and Anna and Alexandra could have won the gold for Team Russia. There would be no question about ROC winning the gold medal
Usually when athletes lose their medals, it is due to testing positive at the event they participated in, and then this results in immediate suspension of the athlete. This happens with all the track athletes that tested positive and lost their medals, as a result of testing positive at the event they participated in. No arguement there. But, here, the testing organization took their sweet time and gave a result for an event back in December. I used to work in a DNA testing laboratory. The normal cases we would have are paternity and maternity DNA tests and we would give our customer results within 5-7 business days as we would perform the work in sequential order of receiving samples. When an RCMP officer comes in with a criminal case, demanding immediate results due to its importance, we would expedite and be able to give a result in 2-3 business days. They need results right away for their legal trials and we were required to provide results ASAP. The reason why I say this, is because, what we have here, is the top female figure skater in the world. She won Russian Nationals, so it would be of utmost importance to give back a result associated with Kamila and the other qualified athletes right away. This result is contingent on ensuring the top athletes that competed fairly qualify to the most important event of their lives. Really, this result needed to come out before the next event, which, was Europeans. If you have been given the assignment to perform tests for Russian participants qualifying to Europeans and Olympic Games, you need to make sure the results become available right away, before the next event. No excuses. I need justification of why it took so long to get a result and why did the result come out during the middle of the Olympic Games, one day after Team event result. It looks purposeful to maximize exposure and that agitates me. It makes it seem like the laboratory had a motive to cause RUS the biggest negative impact. So, my stance is that the laboratory needs to be accountable for not providing this result prior to Europeans. There is a chain of custody question that comes in to play here, if a result comes out much later, the results of the sample has a higher chance of becoming contaminated. These are all valid questions that come in to play. Basically, the longer it takes to give out a result, the more questionable would be the given results. These need to be addressed and both parties need lawyers to get to the bottom of everything. But, in the meantime, Kamila only has this one opportunity for something she has trained her entire life to achieve. So, in my opinion, let her compete, and then deal with legal aspects of this situation, afterwards.
I don't see why that should allow her to compete here after being discovered with a banned substance in her system
less that a couple months ago, it might be a useful argument in trying to keep the team medals of the rest of her team,
if that even works out in the scores (which I think it doesn't).
if they want to punish or investigate the lab then they should go ahead, but what we've been saying all along is
once there's a banned substance in someone's system they can't compete for a certain amount of time out of respect
for the integrity of the sport, no matter how that substance got there.
what more is RUSADA were aware this sample was out in Sweden the entire time, and it was also their responsibility
to make sure it got back in time for whatever.
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2014
Interesting...I just saw the time list for the Women's event and Kamila is listed.
I checked on the ISU Page and she's there as well.
It is interesting...I mean I guess she hasn't been banned yet, but I thought the IOC could kick out anyone they wanted? Or at least the Organising Olympic Committee of the games could. After all neither Ivan and Sasha nor Ksenia Stolbova and Fedor K were invited to Pyeongchang by the Korean Olympic Committee (though they were originally named to represent OAR) and that was that.
Is it different once the athletes get there then?
I checked on the ISU Page and she's there as well.
It is interesting...I mean I guess she hasn't been banned yet, but I thought the IOC could kick out anyone they wanted? Or at least the Organising Olympic Committee of the games could. After all neither Ivan and Sasha nor Ksenia Stolbova and Fedor K were invited to Pyeongchang by the Korean Olympic Committee (though they were originally named to represent OAR) and that was that.
Is it different once the athletes get there then?
Because the timing of the results does matter. The Valieva team needs to be given an opportunity to take a legal stance and blindsiding everyone at the last moment, is also unacceptable. Every person has the right to a defence. If someone accused you of committing a crime, you deserve this opportunity. “No matter how that substance got there” is what is up for debate. If I worked at the laboratory and was anti-Eteri, it would be easy for me to contaminate the sample. The longer it takes to come back with results, the more difficult you make it for me, to defend myself. The timing is what I have an issue with. They waited too long and the biggest victim here is actually Elizaveta.
Finally, I agree with you on the part that RUSADA should have done their due diligence with following up with the laboratory to ensure they had results prior to their selection. In fact, I thought this is part of the process that needs to be taken every year. RUS does look suspicious, and unfortunately their anti-mask and unwillingness of following rules, makes me wary of the athletes competing from this country.
My stance is to allow Kamila to compete due to failure of providing the results one week prior to the Games. Once Kamila competed at her first event, in my opinion, it is too late and cruel to remove her from the Games in front of the whole world. If the laboratory proves its side successfully and without a doubt, then reward everyone with the correct medal and disqualify Kamila, afterwards.
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- Joined
- Nov 9, 2009
Vincent Zhou's name was also still on the list for a while after he was positive for covid,
so it makes sense that they would wait until they know what's happening for sure.
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- Feb 2, 2019
No it wouldn't be. It's not like the sample has "Kamila Valieva, Russia" written in bold letters all over it. The samples are anonymous. For all you'd know, you could just as well be analysing the sample of the winner of the latest Swedish national sheep shearing competition...
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- Feb 22, 2014
Actually that's not true because all the samples are randomised. Each athlete is assigned a number, but RUSADA would have those numbers not the lab.
So there would have been no way to tell who's sample was who's.
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- Joined
- Nov 9, 2009
They are absolutely entitled to defend themselves, but the moment there is a banned substance in someone,
they have to remove that person from competition for a bit, and then even if there are no charges all results
during the time period are revoked, but the time period will be shortened immediately.
it sucks, I know, and people who weren't operating in bad faith could lose precious time in their career,
but if you're not careful about this you could open up the floodgates to everyone making claims
like that it was consumed by accident or someone put it in their mouth while they were asleep,
there's just no way to ever fully know how that substance got there, so the worst must be assumed.
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- Mar 7, 2015
Letting Kamila compete and dealing with the situation afterwards as suggested above is unfair to all the other athletes eligible to compete.
Christine GIRARD received her bronze 10 years after the Beijing games, and her gold 6 years after the London games. She had been retired for a long time already.
In an interview, she said that not only her olympic glory was stolen away from her but also all the funding that would have been available to her if she had won a medal as early as 2008 on her way to 2012 games.
I can only imagine how getting a bronze medal for Loena at Euros may help her continue her career considering that there is pretty much no funding from her federation (if I recall correctly)... Imagine if she managed to skate just as well at the Olympics but one rank away from what may trigger interest in her skating from sponsors? Or what about the athlete who may be excluded from the final flight or the Free Skate of the Olympics to find out afterwards that Kamila is DQed and she missed her spot for no reason ?
It has been said many times, by wanting to give a chance to Kamila, it is the other athletes that are penalized. There are 29 other women who qualified for the games and they deserve a fair competition. Though this may not please many fans, before an event, all the women are equal and they all deserve the same equal chance to compete fairly. Kamila should not receive special treatment because she is the amazing and talented skater she is. If it had been pretty much anyone else, that person would be DQed already... probably anyways because their national anti-doping agency would not have lifted their own suspension on their athlete... If Kamila competes, it means that RUSADA decided she should compete despite a positive test. How is that fair to anyone?
from wiki
Christine GIRARD received her bronze 10 years after the Beijing games, and her gold 6 years after the London games. She had been retired for a long time already.
In an interview, she said that not only her olympic glory was stolen away from her but also all the funding that would have been available to her if she had won a medal as early as 2008 on her way to 2012 games.
I can only imagine how getting a bronze medal for Loena at Euros may help her continue her career considering that there is pretty much no funding from her federation (if I recall correctly)... Imagine if she managed to skate just as well at the Olympics but one rank away from what may trigger interest in her skating from sponsors? Or what about the athlete who may be excluded from the final flight or the Free Skate of the Olympics to find out afterwards that Kamila is DQed and she missed her spot for no reason ?
It has been said many times, by wanting to give a chance to Kamila, it is the other athletes that are penalized. There are 29 other women who qualified for the games and they deserve a fair competition. Though this may not please many fans, before an event, all the women are equal and they all deserve the same equal chance to compete fairly. Kamila should not receive special treatment because she is the amazing and talented skater she is. If it had been pretty much anyone else, that person would be DQed already... probably anyways because their national anti-doping agency would not have lifted their own suspension on their athlete... If Kamila competes, it means that RUSADA decided she should compete despite a positive test. How is that fair to anyone?
from wiki
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- Feb 2, 2019
For all those who are interested in some background information on doping, I'd recommend the documentary "Icarus". It's quite eye-opening and available on Netflix (at least in Austria).
Blurb from Wikipedia: Icarus is a 2017 American documentary film by Bryan Fogel.
While investigating the furtive world of illegal doping in sports, Bryan Fogel connects with Russian scientist Grigory Rodchenkov, the director of Russia's national anti-doping laboratory. Rodchenkov creates a plan for Fogel to take banned performance-enhancing drugs in a way that will evade detection from drug-testing, helping Fogel's experiment to prove that the current way athletes are tested for drugs is insufficient. As Fogel continues his training, he and Rodchenkov become friends, and Rodchenkov eventually reveals that Russia has a state-sponsored Olympic doping program that he oversees.
At the 90th Academy Awards, the film won the Academy Award for Best Documentary Feature.
Blurb from Wikipedia: Icarus is a 2017 American documentary film by Bryan Fogel.
While investigating the furtive world of illegal doping in sports, Bryan Fogel connects with Russian scientist Grigory Rodchenkov, the director of Russia's national anti-doping laboratory. Rodchenkov creates a plan for Fogel to take banned performance-enhancing drugs in a way that will evade detection from drug-testing, helping Fogel's experiment to prove that the current way athletes are tested for drugs is insufficient. As Fogel continues his training, he and Rodchenkov become friends, and Rodchenkov eventually reveals that Russia has a state-sponsored Olympic doping program that he oversees.
At the 90th Academy Awards, the film won the Academy Award for Best Documentary Feature.
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It's very smart to exchange the urine in both the A sample bottle and B sample bottle. You can never test the original urine and you can't prove anything without reasonable doubt in those individual cases.
The cases have to be built without hard evidence. So the questions are: did the athlete know that they planned to exchange the urine and if he did - did he actually dope? For all we know an athlete could've played along and flushed the meds down the toilet.
I'm actually glad that the system is blamed more than the individual athletes.
Again, Rodchenkov's plan was very smart.
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- Feb 27, 2014
Thank you. They are very strict. The key words and what I read is adult athlete let's hope they don't treat KV like an adult athlete suspension wise. If they do treat her as an adult athlete there would probably be appeals and lawsuits and things like that.Sun Yang case (sigh) again, where he was photographed training in a 'state-run facility' last year that may have violated the terms of his suspension. Found an article that talks a little about the usual process for an adult athlete under suspension-
Sun Yang's training on his own in an open-to-public facility likely legit, says lawyer
A sports lawyer's analysis on The Times of London exclusivepekingnology.substack.com
which contains the relevant part of the WADA code, found here-
(side note, the WADA code book will make you drowsy if you try to read it before bedtime and is probably great for insomniacs)
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- Mar 7, 2015
I think it would be fair she gets a very minor suspension (6 months or so) to acknowledge she is not 16 yet. However, if they do this, they need to make an adult accountable for the situation.. Otherwise, it just sends the wrong message.
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- Feb 27, 2014
I am hoping that somehow her testing positive from a sample at Russian Nationals in December it's better than her testing positive from a sample at the Olympics and that all her testing at the Olympics and Europeans was apparently negative. Hoping KV testing clean at the Olympics and Europeans help her a little bit and I wonder if they are retesting those samples or if they have access to do that.
What is the maximum suspension they can give an under 16 year old athlete who tested positive?
But we really know so few of the details since she's under 16 it will be kept private I would think. Maybe an investigation of several months will somehow turn up information on How KV got this in her system and also importantly that this is a one-time thing since all their other tests are negative.
That would be acceptable. But missing the individual competition at the Olympics and worlds and probably having your team gold medal taken from you is not really a very minor suspension. But that could enable her to get back on the ice competitively in the fall and still have a very special career.
What is the maximum suspension they can give an under 16 year old athlete who tested positive?
But we really know so few of the details since she's under 16 it will be kept private I would think. Maybe an investigation of several months will somehow turn up information on How KV got this in her system and also importantly that this is a one-time thing since all their other tests are negative.
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- Dec 5, 2015
Percent. She needs to have a suspension so the adults don't think they can drug minors without consequences. But, a less harsh suspension would be fine. However，those truly at fault need to be punished severely enough to send a message to all other doctors/ teams who would think of endangering the health of a teenager for their own pride.
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Correct. But, you are being a bit naive if you think there isn’t a way of tracking who’s samples belong to who. There is always a document that has all this information. Most people are honest and won’t risk their job and reputation by contaminating a sample. But, people working at laboratories, especially upper management, they know
But, the timing is critical here. For example, when a track athlete tests positive for drugs at say the 2018 Olympics. He/She, upon finding out about the results, has a chance to refute the results by retaking the test or going to a third party laboratory. The reason why most of them don’t, is because they are guilty and the few that retake, still test positive. So, the result still stands. Kamila, due to the slowness of getting these results, is affected because she no longer has this as a viable option and I find that unfair. Also, if the timing of the lab results doesn’t raise a red flag that there is something much bigger going on. Then, I don’t know what to tell you.
Since safety has not been established, sure that it was a good reason for her to take it. The manufacturer should thank everyone for this free experiment on a healthy subject...
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- Nov 9, 2009
Correct. But, you are being a bit naive if you think there isn’t a way of tracking who’s samples belong to who. There is always a document that has all this information. Most people are honest and won’t risk their job and reputation by contaminating a sample. But, people working at laboratories, especially upper management, they know
Just try and see if maybe you're now questioning the Swedish lab
just so you don't have to question Kamila's team.
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- Feb 2, 2019
One might also say that it is a bit naïve at this point to think the possibility that someone tampered with the sample is more likely than that there was a legitimate positive sample.Correct. But, you are being a bit naive if you think there isn’t a way of tracking who’s samples belong to who. There is always a document that has all this information. Most people are honest and won’t risk their job and reputation by contaminating a sample. But, people working at laboratories, especially upper management, they know
That said, I agree that Kamila's best line of defence probably would be to argue that the results of the test took too long to be reported and have the suspension thrown out on purely formal grounds.
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