Kamila Valieva: Anti-doping Case and Follow-ups

[Wafflecakes]

My opinion - i don't see a rational reason why this thread is open at all, because all i can see is people projecting theirs inner hate, and nothing clever over it. And i believe every other psychologist will say the same... The important thing in this or every other similar situation is to examine the process of an athlete having a contact with an 'illegal substance'. Because there is a difference between a plaining doping, and taking some substance at one point of time. I mean, nobody have a right to call me a junky, or a doper if i try a weed in my life? As i can't see how someone can 'dope' with trimetazidine, but some medical professionals here maybe can change my mind in another direction?

Eh. This thread has to exist on some level.

This is the biggest FS related story in the world.... possibly in many years.

You can't pretend that this is a FS discussion board and then ban all discussion of the biggest story of the sport.


...and no. There is no difference. Doping is doping. This drug IS doping no matter how much the Russian press lies otherwise. A drug that improves performance in training, even if not taken in competition, is doping by every definition that matters.

 

[AlysaLiuStan]

I'm withholding my thoughts until we get official news, because all of this doesn't make any sense. Especially the timing. Like why release this a couple months later and during the Olympics? In an Olympic season, shouldn't they want all results back to confirm that all athletes are clean before giving them the ok to compete? If its confirmed that she was though, that would be so unfortunate because she clearly didn't need any enhancements to comfortably win, and says alot about her coaching team.

There is a significant WADA backlog with testing, and since figure skating is considered a "low risk sport" compared to others, it takes a while for them to test all the samples.

 

[anonymoose_au]

My opinion - i don't see a rational reason why this thread is open at all, because all i can see is people projecting theirs inner hate, and nothing clever over it. And i believe every other psychologist will say the same... The important thing in this or every other similar situation is to examine the process of an athlete having a contact with an 'illegal substance'. Because there is a difference between a plaining doping, and taking some substance at one point of time. I mean, nobody have a right to call me a junky, or a doper if i try a weed in my life? As i can't see how someone can 'dope' with trimetazidine, but some medical professionals here maybe can change my mind in other direction?

Apparently for someone who doesn't have angina, trimetazidine allows the heart muscle to recover quickly from exertion - in other words someone could work out more intensely and for longer by using it. This would let them have more practice and be able to do an extremely difficult program without getting tired as fast as someone who's not using it.

Also I think they're pretty harsh about "doping" accidentally or no. Jessica Calalang and partner missed out on Worlds because of a lip balm with a banned ingredient in it, I'm pretty sure the amount wasn't even performance enhancing but because it CAN be used that way no amount is allowed.

Maria Sotskova most likely used a diuretic to slim down for her wedding (definitely not safe or recommended!), in fact since she wasn't competing that's pretty much the only reason her taking that drug that makes sense, but because it's a masking agent she got the same ban as she would have if she had been taking something performance enhancing.

 

[EdgeCall]

Eh. This thread has to exist on some level.

This is the biggest FS related story in the world.... possibly in many years.

You can't pretend that this is a FS discussion board and then ban all discussion of the biggest story of the sport.


...and no. There is no difference. Doping is doping. This drug IS doping no matter how much the Russian press lies otherwise. A drug that improves performance in training, even if not taken in competition, is doping by every definition that matters.

Except there is not much of a story. No one knows anything in detail and everyone dwells in their own prejudices and speculations. I think it is better to close the thread until WADA, IOC, RusFed and other officials involved come over with the detailed facts. And I suspect we will only get half of it.

Just as a side note. As a former runner I know of the performance-enhancing effects of aspirine. It is not on the prohibited substance list and it doesn't look like it will ever get there.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

...and no. There is no difference. Doping is doping. This drug IS doping no matter how much the Russian press lies otherwise. A drug that improves performance in training, even if not taken in competition, is doping by every definition that matters.

Well, everything can be a doping, chocolate can be. If all you know is to listen to the medias without having enough knowledge for yourself that's you. If you can't discuss using of weed or using of trimetazidine then you just prove my point, how this is a thread for people who actually don't have anything clever to say on the topic.

 

[Wafflecakes]

Well, everything can be a doping, chocolate can be. If all you know is to listen to the medias without having enough knowledge for yourself that's you. If you can't discuss using of weed or using of trimetazidine then you just prove my point, how this is a thread for people who actually don't have anything clever to say on the topic

Stop with the gaslighting.

Don't spread lies equating chocolate to doping. One is PROVEN to have performance enhancing effects and thus is banned. The other is a common food item.

No intelligent or honest person could make a comparison between the two.

(The discussion on whether weed should be banned is completely tangential to the topic. It is a legit topic but is ONLY being used here as a distraction to hide discussion of the real issues.)

 

[Wafflecakes]

Except there is not much of a story. No one knows anything in detail and everyone dwells in their own prejudices and speculations. I think it is better to close the thread until WADA, IOC, RusFed and other officials involved come over with the detailed facts. And I suspect we will only get half of it.

Just as a side note. As a former runner I know of the performance-enhancing effects of aspirine. It is not on the prohibited substance list and it doesn't look like it will ever get there.

It isn't our fault that the information is being hidden from the public no matter the reasoning.

Unless they release more information, then the best information we have is what has been released by the media and it IS worth discussing. If the ROC, Eteri, or the IOC think the released information is wrong the easy solution would be to release the truth, which they aren't doing.

If there was an easy explanation there is 0 reason why the ROC couldn't release it to put an end to the conversation. Every minute they delay is increasing the chance that the reports is true.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Stop with the gaslighting.

Don't spread lies equating chocolate to doping. One is PROVEN to have performance enhancing effects and thus is banned. The other is a common food item.

No intelligent or honest person could make a comparison between the two.

(The discussion on whether weed should be banned is completely tangential to the topic. It is a legit topic but is ONLY being used here as a distraction to hide discussion of the real issues.)

If you didn't know, the athletes can use those medicines if they just give a 'proof' why they need to use those medicines. Do you know what medicine Simone Biles used while competing, or Bobrova, or Bjorndalen etc?

 

[tulosai]

My opinion - i don't see a rational reason why this thread is open at all, because all i can see is people projecting theirs inner hate, and nothing clever over it. And i believe every other psychologist will say the same... The important thing in this or every other similar situation is to examine the process of an athlete having a contact with an 'illegal substance'. Because there is a difference between a plaining doping, and taking some substance at one point of time. I mean, nobody have a right to call me a junky, or a doper if i try a weed in my life? As i can't see how an athlete can 'dope' with trimetazidine, but some medical professionals here maybe can change my mind in another direction?

A private individual who smoked a joint is a private individual who smoked a joint. A professional athlete who took a banned substance has gained an unfair advantage.

Well, everything can be a doping, chocolate can be. If all you know is to listen to the medias without having enough knowledge for yourself that's you. If you can't discuss using of weed or using of trimetazidine then you just prove my point, how this is a thread for people who actually don't have anything clever to say on the topic. And if you didn't know, the athletes can use those medicines if they just give a 'prove' they need to use those medicines

The list of banned substances is known and publicly available. It is not ambiguous, anyone can read it and know what you can and cannot put in your body. If chocolate was on the list and you wanted to be a professional athlete, you could not eat chocolate. This isn't a hard concept.

The question of which drugs should and should not be on the list is one for medical professionals. But if someone takes a substance on the list they have violated the rules and will be disciplined. This is not a secret. Again this information is publicly available and clear. If you want to take one of the substances on the list you cannot be a professional athlete. It is what it is and really in some ways is no different at all from any job where you must abide by whatever rules your employer sets in order to keep the job.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

A private individual who smoked a joint is a private individual who smoked a joint. A professional athlete who took a banned substance has gained an unfair

The list of banned substances is known and publicly available. It is not ambiguous, anyone can read it and know what you can and cannot put in your body. If chocolate was on the list and you wanted to be a professional athlete, you could not eat chocolate. This isn't a hard concept.

The question of which drugs should and should not be on the list is one for medical professionals. But if someone takes a substance on the list they have violated the rules and will be disciplined. This is not a secret. Again this information is publicly available and clear. If you want to take one of the substances on the list you cannot be a professional athlete. It is what it is and really in some ways is no different at all from any job where you must abide by whatever rules your employer sets in order to keep the job.

Well, you can see my post above. You absolutely can take them, and a lot of athletes are taking them Because if you have a hearth disease or asthma or ADHD, you can compete with a medicine or cannot compete at all.

 

[Wafflecakes]

If you didn't know, the athletes can use those medicines if they just give a 'proof' they need to use those medicines. Do you know what medicine Simone Biles used while competing, or Bobrova, or Bjorndalen etc?

Yes, that is true. Are you making the claim that that is the case in this situation? Because that is very hard to believe.

If that was the case give me one good reason why the ROC wouldn't have just come out and said that the moment the reports came out?

Hell, as I understand it if that was true it would never have counted as a positive case in the first place as that would have been kept on file by the testing agency and thus wouldn't have been reported as a positive case. The only conclusion we can draw is that she doesn't have an exemption.

Any other deflections?

 

[NAOTMAA]

We will probably NEVER know the full story no matter what it is or how much time has passed. It will always be clouded. They won't even tell about what happened with S/B and Barbova four years ago. Hell I don't even think Ivan Bukin fully knows and he was a main party

 

[tulosai]

Well, you can see my post above. You absolutely can take them, and a lot of athletes are taking them Because if you have a hearth disease or asthma or ADHD, you can compete with a medicine or cannot compete at all.

Genuine documented medical exemptions also have a publically available process people can follow and this process too isn't a secret.

Assuming the media reports about what this drug was are accurate there is effectively zero chance a 15 year old professional athlete would be taking it for a health problem. A 15 year old who actually needed this drug would not be able to be a professional athlete.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Yes, that is true. Are you making the claim that that is the case in this situation? Because that is very hard to believe.

If that was the case give me one good reason why the ROC wouldn't have just come out and said that the moment the reports came out?

Hell, as I understand it if that was true it would never have counted as a positive case in the first place as that would have been kept on file by the testing agency and thus wouldn't have been reported as a positive case. The only conclusion we can draw is that she doesn't have an exemption.

Any other deflections?

Nobody is calling this situation a negative case, except some medias and some people who wanted to present some situation as a really big one just to sold their news, their (negative) emotions or themselves... I even didn't see that news exist on BESP coverage, i read it only here

 

[skatedreamer]

Re: banned substances, I've been puzzled about allergy meds. Allergies to things like dust, mold, pollen, etc. are very common and lots of allergy meds contain pseudo-epinephrine. That said, IIRC pseudo-ep is also a banned substance for competition.

I try to avoid those meds but sometimes the sneezes get so bad that there's just no other solution. If you're an athlete with allergies, what do you do? To me, it seems absurd to have to ask for an exemption for something used so widely.

IMO, in this situation the person who deserves the most punishment is whoever prescribed the drug or encouraged its use. NOT a young skater who probably had no idea what she was taking. A 15-year old in that kind of environment rarely questions the decisions of coaches, doctors, and other authority figures, if ever. Young athletes -- and all kids -- deserve way more from the adults who are supposed to be teaching and guiding them. (Looking at YOU, USA Gymnastics. )

I'm sorry for Kami and sorry for figure skating.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Do you know what medicine Simone Biles used while competing , or Bobrova, or Bjorndalen etc?

I believe Simone uses Ritalin for ADHD, which is on the banned list except for a therauptic exemption, which she has. However, this does not stop people accusing her of doping even though there is scientific evidence that those with ADHD do not react to amphetamines in the same way a "neurotypical" person does. At an approved dose it allows an ADHD individual to actually be able to concentrate, it does not give them any further benefit. Simone has well documented ADHD.

Bobrova like many Russian athletes used Melodium, but stopped taking it immediately once it was placed on the banned list, she and Dmitri were not able to attend Worlds because she tested positive for it. It was later realised that Melodium took longer to clear the body than the WADA thought so she was not given any furher ban.

Don't know who the last guy is.

 

[Vlad Karigov]

If you didn't know, the athletes can use those medicines if they just give a 'proof' why they need to use those medicines. Do you know what medicine Simone Biles used while competing, or Bobrova, or Bjorndalen etc?

The worst thing is that it continues to use it, precisely because of Japan's prohibition to use methamphetamines as medicines your Olympiad it was a disaster.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Don't spread lies equating chocolate to doping. One is PROVEN to have performance enhancing effects and thus is banned. The other is a common food item.

Just to be clear, there is nothing proven about performance-enhancing effects of the medication in question. It could be mildly beneficial, but there isn't research to back up the statement that it is proven to enhance performance. Nonetheless, it IS on the banned list so it must be treated like other substances on the list.

 

[Wafflecakes]

Nobody is calling this situation a negative case, except some medias and some people who wanted to present some situation as a really big one just to sold their news, their (negative) emotions or themselves... I even didn't see that news exist on BESP coverage, i read it only here

If it was totally false, once again, ROC could have come out two days ago to say the reports are not true. They haven't.

Also, don't lie about coverage. Media across the world is carrying the story. This includes many well respected sports journalists with experience covering such issues. They are waiting for details yes, but the idea that this is really nothing seems like delusion at this point.

Pretending that this is all a lie due to some paranoid delusion that everyone is out to get poor poor Russia is insane.

 

[Wafflecakes]

Just to be clear, there is nothing proven about performance-enhancing effects of the medication in question. It could be mildly beneficial, but there isn't research to back up the statement that it is proven to enhance performance. Nonetheless, it IS on the banned list so it must be treated like other substances on the list.

Mildly beneficial = proven benefit. That is exactly what doping is.

You undermine your own point. It doesn't have to be a magic super drug in order to count as doping.