Kwan and Slutskaya each without Olympic Gold, does it seem picture is wrong?

[Spun Silver]

Michelle Kwan does have a more "American" name and upbringing than both Caroline Zhang and Mirai Nagasu, however. Don't expect either of those young girls to become as popular, even if they display the same amount of consistency and talent.

~Z

Absurd! I expect both of these wonderful girls to become famous and popular as long as they keep performing at this amazing level. They're already halfway there with their appearances on national TV, first at Nationals and coming up next weekend Marshall's.

If they don't ultimately equal Kwan's fame, it will depend on lots of things - can anyone have such a long career in the COP era? can there be two new Kwans simultaneously or will one have to be content with lesser fame? Will skating itself sustain enough interest - for example will it continue to be seen on national TV - to generate the excitement that MK did? But it's NOT going to depend on their "non-American-ness." America's diverse, everybody knows it, everybody's proud of it, it's not even an issue any more.

And exactly how is "Michelle Kwan" more "American" in your sense (Anglo?) than "Caroline Zhang"? ("Mirai Nagasu" I'll grant sounds a tad more exotic....no more than "Muhammed Ali," though.)

 

[SeaniBu]

But it's NOT going to depend on their "non-American-ness." America's diverse, everybody knows it, everybody's proud of it, it's not even an issue any more.

....no more than "Muhammed Ali," though.)

:agree: Good points. "everybody" is a little too general for me but understood.

 

[Spun Silver]

:agree: Good points. "everybody" is a little too general for me but understood.

Yeah, you're right about that. I overstated my case... but I still think CZ & MN will be wildly popular if they stay on the same track they're on now.

 

[Jaana]

IIRC the exact quotes were:

MSNBC Internet news site, 1998: "American beats out Kwan."

I think that the title would have been more clear if it would have been "Another American beats out Kwan", because that surely must have been what they meant. It was widely expected that Kwan wins in Nagano, hence the title.

And:

Seattle Times, 2002 (second headline, below "Hughes is Good as Gold"): "American outshines Kwan, Slutskaya in Skating Surprise."

I see nothing wrong with that, although it could have been better expressed: ("American Hughes is Good as Gold") Hughes outshines teammate Kwan and Slutskaya" or something like that. In these titles though it must have been thought that readers know that Kwan is an American also, because she is a big name in USA.

 

[Mafke]

At the risk of being unpopular (ha!) I think people are overreacting a bit too much here. Unless the actual ARTICLE had a descending or racist tone to it, I really don't see anything wrong with the title. It says what it says: an American beat Kwan at the Oly Games.
And as for the state of skating, looks like the Asians are starting to leave the Europeans and Americans behind. At least that's what it appears from this year's world champs. But no one knows the future.

Typically in headlines (and in language use in general) if you contrast:

Noun and Propername, where Noun has identifying properties, the assumption is that the adjective does not apply to the proper name, that is that a contrast is being made and qualities that the two people share are not normally used to contrast them.

Let's play around a little.

American beats Federer at Wimboldon
vs
Swiss player beats Federer at Wimbledon ...

which seems to make more sense (leaving aside the depth of Swiss tennis)?


I think the critical thing here is can we find similar headlines where a younger competitor upsets a favorite from the same country? These two examples are the only two I've heard of and they both wrong and jarring and (coincidence?) involve the same person.

If they really wanted to contrast Kwan's fame vs Hughes relative lack of same, the headline US ROOKIE BEATS KWAN would make more sense as we have a different noun (US is modifying here) and relative experience of the two skaters is being contrasted (and it was Hughes rookie olympics).
Or TEAMMATE BEATS KWAN. If Kwan is so famous, then that should work just as well as any reader would know that a fellow American skater beat Kwan.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I never read anything like that in the NY Times. The Times gave a front page pic of Tara and an excellent review of Kwan. In 2002 they gave much space for Sarah, and regretted Michelle and the 'would be winner' Sasha. They did mention Irina's bobbling.

Joe

 

[Tonichelle]

I think that the title would have been more clear if it would have been "Another American beats out Kwan", because that surely must have been what they meant. It was widely expected that Kwan wins in Nagano, hence the title.

That doesn't make the title pop though... when you write the headline you want it to POP... 'another' makes it a bit passive

you try to get the point across in as few words as possible... what can be bad grammer in the actual article is ok for the head line
"Veggies BAD Meat GOOD" that sort of thing.

 

[Mathman]

It could have been worse. If Don Imus had written the headline it might have been, "Sarah Hughes beats straight-haired ho."

 

[Ravyn Rant]

It could have been worse. If Don Imus had written the headline it might have been, "Sarah Hughes beats straight-haired ho."

I wondered when someone would go there!
Thank heaven Imus doesn't do skating commentary.
xoxo
Rave

 

[attyfan]

I wondered when someone would go there!
Thank heaven Imus doesn't do skating commentary.
xoxo
Rave

Maybe, it would help if he did -- just think of the publicity that would ensue when he got whacked!

 

[hockeyfan228]

It could have been worse. If Don Imus had written the headline it might have been, "Sarah Hughes beats straight-haired ho."

Mathman, Mathman, you're too nice to channel Don Imus. He would have said a lot worse.

 

[antmanb]

We all have our opinions and egos. But I guess those commentators sometimes do have more credibility than you especially when all the commentators from three major channels(CBC, ESPN, Eurosports) have reached the consensus that Shen & Zhao is one of the greatest in pairs skating history.

Hyperbole spouted by commentators in the heat of the moment does not proove anything as fact...remember Scott hamilton questioning whether Alexei Yagudin had done enough to win the Olympic gold medal in SLC?

Ant

 

[Mafke]

Hyperbole spouted by commentators in the heat of the moment does not proove anything as fact...remember Scott hamilton questioning whether Alexei Yagudin had done enough to win the Olympic gold medal in SLC?

Actually IIRC he questioned whether Yagudin had done enough to win the LP, the gold medal was a given after Plushenko fell in the short. He said something like Yagudin was 'ceding the lp to plushenko' or something and looked a little foolish when the judges went for Yagudin 9/0 (again IIRC).

 

[gio]

But I don't think we can dismiss The Red Violin or the Song of the Balck Swan (2001). Here they are on Youtube. Both the choreography and the music are quite similar. These are also the last two times that Michelle hit her triple toe/triple toe at Worlds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0SpHAqbZZg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x3Qn1dECWA

These programs marked the culmination of Michelle's collaboration with Lori Nichol. I love them both (I mean, both programs. But for that matter, both Michelle and Lori, too, LOL.)
This was Michelle come into the full measure of artistic maturity and simultaneously shows Nichol's depth of musical interpretation, IMHO.

Thanks for the vids, Mathman!!

Don't get me wrong. I misused the words. I should have used "they aren't my fav" rather than "I don't like very much". I don't want to dismiss any Michelle program. Especially the two you have posted. They were two technically and artistically excellent programs and I really enjoy to watch and rewatch 'em!!! But still I prefer the late Michelle programs. They have more power and passion in it from my perception. It's obvious that it is really subjective.
-I love the early programs (Taj Mahal, Salome, Romanza), because they were original.
-The late programs were done on warhorses (Sheherazade, Tosca, Aranjuez, Feeling Begins), but I love them because I see in 'em a lot of power and passion.
-The middle programs are a pleasure to watch. Beautiful and original music (Red Violin, Song of the Black Swan) with great choreoghraphy and interpretation. But they aren't my favs. A lack of power and passion, maybe. Or maybe it's just me!

IMO the best programs of Michelle were done on Oriental music. That music fits her very well. She seems too be very comfortable with that music. The Feeling Begins, Sheherazade, Taj Mahal, Salome, wow!!!

 

[slutskayafan21]

Actually IIRC he questioned whether Yagudin had done enough to win the LP, the gold medal was a given after Plushenko fell in the short. He said something like Yagudin was 'ceding the lp to plushenko' or something and looked a little foolish when the judges went for Yagudin 9/0 (again IIRC).

Scott Hamilton said that Yagudin had conceded the free program to Evgeny Plushenko, and questioned whether he would beat Goebel for 2nd place in the free program or not to either retain the overall gold or drop to 3rd overall.

These were his words at programs end I believe:

"So the question is will two quads and 1 beautiful triple axel be enough to retain him that gold medal. Again he can lose finish 2nd to Evgeny Plushenko in the long program and he still wins, but if he is 3rd in the long program, he is 3rd. Enough to beat Plushenko in the long, I dont think so, I think he has already conceded that to Evgeny Plushenko; but will he beat Timothy Goebel in the long, this is a really tough call."

I am not sure on that whole statement word for word, but the last part I am sure is almost exactly what he said word for word. I remember listening and thanking god the network the employs Scotty Hamilton as its play by play only works at the Olympics. He used to be a very good commentator in the 80s, began to slip in the 90s, and he has become almost unbearable in the new century.

 

[blue dog]

Exactly, attyfan! Which is why I bought up my uncle's comment ... Michelle doesn't look American, I guess ... unlike Tara and Sarah.

Despite the fact that she won the US National title more than all but one woman who LOOKS American.

 

[Tonichelle]

aside from his 2002 work I think Scott's a decent commentator... way better than Bezic or Button

I think he needs Verne with him always lol... they worked the best together...

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

aside from his 2002 work I think Scott's a decent commentator... way better than Bezic or Button

I think he needs Verne with him always lol... they worked the best together...

That's a fan's opinion. My point of view starts with he has a sqeaky voice, and too quick to jump on a controversial decision.

 

[attyfan]

...
IMO the best programs of Michelle were done on Oriental music. That music fits her very well. She seems too be very comfortable with that music. The Feeling Begins, Sheherazade, Taj Mahal, Salome, wow!!!

I always thought that Michelle did very well with Mediterranean (especially Spanish) music -- Romanza; Aranjuez; Tosca, etc. She is, after all, a California girl -- and that kind of music is very good for Californians (think what fellow California girls Kristi and Sasha did with "Malaguena", for example)

 

[Tonichelle]

aren't we all fans of skating on this board, if not why are we here?

Yes, I like Scott as a person and a skater, but that doesn't make my opinion less valid...

Yes his voice can be grating, in fact I believe I complained about it during the olympics this year...

as for controversy - 2002 was an awful year, I said as much. He was very quick to rush to conclusions and keep it up... he DID come back and apologise for the outburst and then dropped it (he is not NBC they continued talking about it)

Point of view is just a fancy way of saying opinion. We all have then and we're welcome to them. But it was Besic and Button that were unduly harsh last year and could not let go of what happend 4 years ago... not Hamilton.