Ladies - Free Program

[chuckm]

As for Caroline she does need to fix her technique. It may be fine for her now, but her technique could hurt her when she grows and it could hurt her ability to develop triple/triples.

Caroline is aware she needs to fix her technique, especially on the lutz. She mentioned that during US Nationals interviews.

But considering how few of the ladies attempting 3Z landed them cleanly, it seems that not many skaters have a good lutz technique anyway. The takeoff is just one part of the jump. If the takeoff edge is correct but there's a failure elsewhere (height, rotation, one-foot landing on the sweet spot of the blade with no hands down) then the technique is just as faulty.

 

[gio]

Caroline is aware she needs to fix her technique, especially on the lutz. She mentioned that during US Nationals interviews.

Very good! There is hope she can fix the technique! We have to remember that Joannie Rochette completely relearned her Lutz. So also Caroline could do it.

 

[Sylvia]

Emily Hughes had a bad flutz when she was at the novice level and, like Rochette, relearned/improved hers as well.

I think the ISU should give more incentive for skaters to fix flutzes and lips, such as higher point values for correct technique on these triple jumps.

 

[PolymerBob]

Hi Folks. I didn't see the skate, but I'm happy for the sweep. A couple of months ago, I was reading through the ISU official rules and saw something that surprised me. It seems that a skater is allowed 1/4 revolution of under rotation. More than that, and a triple is downgraded to a double, etc. That could be what happened here.

 

[enlight78]

Oh, I'm not at all against this medal standings. Most of the Junior skaters in the world aren't up to the American standard. But I think that the person above is wrong to say technique doesn't matter, and that the difference between a flutz and a flip doesn't matter. It does matter for the people who do land clean triple lutzs, that others are able to skirt by with cheating.

So yes, I do think the ISU needs to do something about flutzs. Yes, people sometime make a mistake her and there, but lately it seems like many skaters just learn the triple flip, and flutz their way through the lutz without really learning the lutz. The best way for the ISU to fix this problem, is to count the triple flutz as a flip, which is what it really is.


As for Caroline she does need to fix her technique. It may be fine for her now, but her technique could hurt her when she grows and it could hurt her ability to develop triple/triples.

I agree. Also doing flutzes and lips should count off on your skating skills in the PCs

 

[purplecat]

Caroline!
Mirai!
Ashley!

Congrats U.S. ladies! Way to go! :thumbsup:

 

[_Ladybug_]

I'm very happy for Caroline. She is a delightful skater and such a joy to watch. It's been a long while since I was this excited for a skater.

 

[tagmats]

I don't think so. She has text book jumps according to what I've seen so far. Another lady with good jump technique is Susanna Poykio.

No.
She dose not have a clean Flip.
Her Flip launches off a LBO edge.
It is necessary to recognize that both LIP & FLUTZ are error jumps.

 

[Mathman]

From the reading I have done there still seems to be a point of confusion about how the judges are supposed to penalize a wrong take-off edge. If you read the ISU rules carefully, it seems like the actual written rule is that the judges should give a -3 to -1 GOE, depending on the severity of the infraction, and may not give a positive GOE for the element even if the jump is superior in other respects.

People who have attended ISU judging seminars say, however, that they are being told no, this is the wrong interpretation of the rules. If you have a slight flutz (that is, you slip over to the flat or slightly to the wrong edge at the last moment), that gives you a -1, but if you have full rotations, good body position in the air and strong flow-out on the landing, that can compensate for the error on the take-off and you end up with a zero or plus GOE after all.

But the problem is that the judges are not enforcing even this milder interpretation. A truly egregrious flutz should be a -3. If the judge gives a 0 GOE that means that the judge thought the other aspects of the jump deserved a +3. I don't think I have ever seen a +3 GOE awarded on a jump, not even to Plushenko.

I agree that falling is worse than flutzing. But falling is penalized appropriately in the score. I think the ISU judges should at least enforce their own rules about wrong-edge take-offs.

 

[chuckm]

Oh, I'm not at all against this medal standings. Most of the Junior skaters in the world aren't up to the American standard. But I think that the person above is wrong to say technique doesn't matter, and that the difference between a flutz and a flip doesn't matter. It does matter for the people who do land clean triple lutzs, that others are able to skirt by with cheating.

I think the word "cheating" is more than a bit offensive. If technique is imperfect, it is NOT because the skater intends it to be, but because it is a habit that is hard to break.

Furthermore, "people who do land clean triple lutzes" should (and often do) get +GOE for doing so. Getting 6.5 for a clean triple lutz compared to 5.5 for a flutz means the clean lutzer is up on the flutzer by a whole point.

During her GP events, Julia Sebestyen got +1.2 GOE for her lutz on both the combination and the solo lutz, for a total 2.4 additional points.

So if there are skaters doing proper lutzes, they are being rewarded for them, just as the flutzers are being penalized. Looking at the Europeans SP protocols, of 38 competitors, only 16 attempted (or intended) a lutz in the SP.Of those 16, only 6 actually landed the lutz combo (or solo lutz). Of those 6, Sarah Meier was the only one to get +GOE (+0.86). Of the other 5, one got 0 GOE and all 4 of the others got -GOE, ranging from -1.57 to -1.14.

So it seems that people who land clean lutzes are few and far between. There are many reasons for getting -GOE on a lutz, and flutzing is only one of them. Pitching forward on the landing is another, putting a hand down is another, overrotating so that the skater is forced to add a step before the combination is still another. And it can be argued that flutzing is less disruptive to the program than putting a hand down, stumbling, or other awkward "save" technique.

 

[Spun Silver]

This is the most informative discussion of flutzing that I've seen. Thanks from a non-skater!

Change of subject: FWIW, I just emailed the NY Times sports ed. to request coverage of the outstanding US performances in Junior Worlds! Where are they??

 

[Mathman]

...and yes, I've skated and I know the difference in the feel of the 2 jumps - they're different jumps - doing a proper Lutz gives you a 'pop' off the edge that you don't get unless you take off form a true outside edge.

I totally agree, especially that part about the "pop." I have to disagree with Iloveaxel that the average spectator can't tell the difference.

Well, OK, that's true in the literal sense. But the average spectator feels that WOW when the skater does it properly, even though they don't know anything about edges. It just looks so cool when it's done right.

I have to admit, though, that only men seem to be able to do a true WOW Lutz. The ladies usually look like they are just trying somehow by hook or crook to muscle themselves into the air any old way they can. (In contrast, there is something about a lady's double Axel that is beautiful to behold, IMHO.)

 

[Mathman]

Change of subject: FWIW, I just emailed the NY Times sports ed. to request coverage of the outstanding US performances in Junior Worlds! Where are they??

Well, I just clicked on the New York Times on-line sports section, and the lead story was about the Red Bull Cracked Ice downhill ice skating race in Quebec. So I guess that's a start, LOL.:frown2:

http://www.nytimes.com/pages/sports/index.html

 

[gio]

I agree that falling is worse than flutzing. But falling is penalized appropriately in the score. I think the ISU judges should at least enforce their own rules about wrong-edge take-offs.

I suggest calling a triple lutz a triple lutz and a triple flip a triple flip. In this way skaters won't do anymore four 3flips or four 3lutzes in a program. Because now de facto you are allowed to do four 3flips or four 3lutzes. I'll say why not allow four 3toes, 3salchows and 3loops then?

 

[Sylvia]

Change of subject: FWIW, I just emailed the NY Times sports ed. to request coverage of the outstanding US performances in Junior Worlds! Where are they??

The most you can expect from the NY Times is that they publish an abbreviated summary of the AP newswire's Junior Worlds articles. Like this Ladies SP article in the International Herald Tribune (France edition):
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/03/03/sports/EU-SPT-FIG-Junior-Worlds.php

Sal Zanca, who covers international skating events for the AP, also contributes articles to USFS, and here's the link to his Ladies FS article that just went up: http://www.usfigureskating.org/event_story.asp?id=37845

 

[Mathman]

“I wanted to rack up as many points as possible, and I [said] ‘I am not going to let that sucker go. I am going to land his thing.”

Mirai rocks!

Now let's have a poll about what she actually said where the interviewer put "[said]"

1. ...and I go, "I'm not going to let that sucker go."

2. ...and I'm like, "I'm not going to let that sucker go."

 

[bekalc]

I think the word "cheating" is more than a bit offensive. If technique is imperfect, it is NOT because the skater intends it to be, but because it is a habit that is hard to break.

Maybe so, but have we ever seen Sasha Cohen land a pure triple lutz, or anyone else. IF this is the case than you have to wonder if they just decided to accept the flutz and call it a lutz....

So if I decide, well I'm going to pretend I'm doing a lutz, but than switch to another edge and make it a flip, how is that not cheating? If its done on purpose..

 

[t11nah]

If you read the ISU rules carefully, it seems like the actual written rule is that the judges should give a -3 to -1 GOE, depending on the severity of the infraction, and may not give a positive GOE for the element even if the jump is superior in other respects.

But the problem is that the judges are not enforcing even this milder interpretation. A truly egregrious flutz should be a -3. If the judge gives a 0 GOE that means that the judge thought the other aspects of the jump deserved a +3. I don't think I have ever seen a +3 GOE awarded on a jump, not even to Plushenko.

I agree that falling is worse than flutzing. But falling is penalized appropriately in the score. I think the ISU judges should at least enforce their own rules about wrong-edge take-offs.

I totally agree with you that it is really amazing how the judges seem to ignore flutzing, if the jump is otherwise well done. I saw the judges' score from ladies' SP and noticed that some judges had given Caroline +2 GOE on her 3Lz2T, which I think is truly unfair to the skaters who did for example 3T2T combinations beautifully and received only a 0 GOE, because it is an easier jump.

I have nothing against Caroline, don't take me wrong but I'm wondering why the judges are acting this way? Even if Caroline herself admits the error, I don't think she'll be pleased to see that judges award her for a 'bad' jump when she knows that she can do it better.., what's the motivation to start practising it correctly if the judges are inable to give better marks when she can do it properly? There's too much to lose and nothing to win as it is inescapably true that no one will ever receive a +3 GOE from a jump...

ISU has given very specific guidelines for judges' GOE's, I know that because I am a technical specialist myself, but there are many other elements besides flutz/lip where the judges aren't following the 'ISU rules'.. This is just an error ( which I hope will disappear in a few years' time) in this newly-born judging system. The judges are trying to award good skaters in every single element, no matter how the element is executed..

Besides, I think that even if Zhang would have 'punished' for all of her flutzes, she still would have won.., it's just a small beauty flaw in the evaluation sheet..

 

[gio]

rotation = not a skating skill
edge control = skating skill

Why skaters are more penalyzed if they don't completely rotate a jump and less if they don't control edges?

 

[R.D.]

Mirai rocks!

Now let's have a poll about what she actually said where the interviewer put "[said]"

1. ...and I go, "I'm not going to let that sucker go."

2. ...and I'm like, "I'm not going to let that sucker go."

I'd put my money on the latter. :yes:

congrats to the Americans. Let's hope the senior ones can pull off a strong finish as well.