That's why this sport wasn't and isn't taken seriously! The judges are a BIG problem.
Ladies - Free Program
- Thread starter Rosaleen
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That's why this sport wasn't and isn't taken seriously! The judges are a BIG problem.
But a large number of the viewing audience is casual fans, not die-hards. Casual fans can care less about the point stuff and jump stuff. Many are just tired of seeing performances with obvious mistakes getting placed above clean ones (in other words, controversial calls, colluding, judge anonymity, etc.)
That was ONE judge who gave Caroline a +2. Two judges gave a +1, five gave her a 0, and four gave her a -1. In the end, her GOE for that combination was a minus 0.14. Remember, this was a COMBINATION of two jumps, not a solo lutz. Clearly, the judge who gave +2 was out of line, but that score would have been thrown out anyway. (Incidentally, for those wondering, there was NO US judge on either of the Ladies panels).
All three US ladies received -GOE on their 3Z combos, most likely because they flutzed. Out of six skaters who completed a 3Z combo in the SP, the only one to receive +GOE was Myriane Samson, who got 7.64 for her combo. The other two skaters (Martinova and Cagnon) received -GOE.
Glebova and Suizu did 3T3T combos and both received + GOE. They received 8.86 and 8.14 respectively for their combinations vs. 7.16, 7.01 and 7.21 for Zhang, Nagasu and Wagner.
Vahamaa and Leonova did 3S2T and both got +GOE.
Shin and Muniz got +GOE for their 3T2T combos.
If other skaters got 0 GOE on their 3T2T, it may have been because the judges saw the combo as no more than adequate. Julia Sheremet got 0 on her 3T2T, but the judges did give her +0.57 on her 2A. Kerstin Frank also got +GOE on her 2A but 0 on the 3T2T. Stefania Berton got 0 GOE on all her jumps including the 3T2T, but + GOE on all her non-jump elements. I don't think any of these skaters were being penalized for having an easier combination.
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- Joined
- Dec 28, 2006
Caroline Zhang, 2007 gold medalist!!!
so happy!!!!:agree:
:agree: 
She did it again. can't wait till she is a senior skater. watch out emily and kimmie. gather ye world medals while ye may!!!!
so happy!!!!:agree:
Well, we are certainly the happy campers, on the other hand, there're lots of disgruntled folks who're devasted by Caroline's win based on the reaction on this board.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
In that case, a double thanks for joining us on Golden Skate. I look forward to your posts.So, did Finland win three places for next year, with a 4th and a 7th?
Mathman
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Still, she lost only a tiny fraction of a point overall for an error that was apparently so bad that there is legitimate discussion of whether she did the jump (an actual Lutz jump) at all.
I think a reasonable compromise would be a separate call ("wrong edge") by the tech specialist, then a required negative GOE and a 1 point deduction, like for a fall). The skater could still get credit for for the element and would not be Zayacked out in the case where she also did two flips. (Gio is too tough, LOL.
)
So, did Finland win three places for next year, with a 4th and a 7th?
Mathman
I believe so. The two placements add up to only eleven, and that is well under the 13 limit, so Finland gets the right to three entries next year.
Red Dog, you're exactly right. I am one of those fans who can not tell lips, can not tell flutz, can not tell edge. I'm also one of those who're just tired of seeing performances with obvious mistakes such as stumbles, falls getiting placed above clean ones with flutz, without 'edge' etc, which, frankly, can not really be identified without microscope(literally).
The elitist attitude of some diehards is really killing figure skating market. There is another example. A couple of freaks on some other boards(won't name them since it's against the rule here) commented that shen&zhao's throws should receive a -2 GOE because they hate zhao kicking his free leg. I don't understand why certain diehards want to impose their own pet peeves to the more 'regular', shall we say, more 'normal' spectators? A flutz certainly won't kill the overall quality of a program, a fall certainly does.
I turned on TV this afternoon, and watched a bit gymnastics competition on NBC('Cup of America' or something). I was very very surprised about the size of the crowd. It was a big crowd, especially when you compare it to the empty arena of 4cc. Those folks don't necessary understand the subtle quality such as 'edge', 'flutz' or 'artistry' or whatever, they do, however, know how to enjoy an intense program with lots of difficult jumps, tumbles, all those things who can grab your attention, wow you. Caroline Zhang's performance has that quality, it can wow you. I certainly would be happy to tolerate her flutz.
If diehards continue to focus on flutz, the decline of figure skating is probably inevitable, and you guys will certainly pay more for a dwindling market with a couple of skaters who have no originality but can do so-called true lutz(in my untrained eyes, there is really no true lutz since almost everybody changes the edge during take-off).
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I think a reasonable compromise would be a separate call ("wrong edge") by the tech specialist, then a required negative GOE and a 1 point deduction, like for a fall). The skater could still get credit for for the element and would not be Zayacked out in the case where she also did two flips. (Gio is too tough, LOL.
That is a good idea, Mathman!!!
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2006
Wow, -2? I don't think that is a good idea, but I see people thinking that it is not "as nice" as a throw as the one without the "Chinese kick". Getting negative just for that doesn't make sense but a 0 or at most a +1 if every thing else is quality I do see. It is harder not to so it should leave room for the ones who don't to receive higher marks IMO. Not a negative just for that.
I have to believe a lot of that had to do with location. I and most from Denver Boulder area agree CO Springs is a nice town, but mainly in the summer. Also every snow we have there is going to be an accident near Castle Rock which is on the way south to the springs from Denver. If they moved the world arena and the FS hall o' fame - to Denver or even Boulder *glee!* - I think the attendance would be greater. The person who drove last time I was there in the middle of Olys last year to see Sasha at the Broadmoore said that is the last time he would drive down in inclement weather. It was sketchy. And there was really nothing else to do down there that getting a head start on the 2 - 4 (due to weather) hour drive didn't take precedence over.
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The location is an important factor for the dismal audience size of 4cc. But my generally impression is that the crowd of gymnastics competition is much much larger than figure skating competition for a while. When u looked at all the GP events such as Skate America, you'll see more than half of the seats are empty.
From what I saw this afternoon on TV, the size of gymnastics competition is much larger. The arena is roughly filled.
I do believe one reason is that figure skating's scoring does not appeal to regular audiences. if you over emphasize on the 'flutz', 'edge', and stuff like that, you really can't appeal to mass crowd. How can you actually from a distance whether a skater is flutzing or not anyway. Another good example is Suyra Bonaly. She is very athletic and definitely a crow pleaser. 'regular' viewers just love her. But she's crucified by judges and diehards on skating boards for lack of edge, basic skating skills etc. The contrast is so sharp that 'regular' viewers just did not understand why she got low marks, and obviously they would no longer be interested in such a flawed sport.
I really believe the scoring system itself is very flawed with emphasis on subtle quality, instead of athletism, 'wow' factor. Maybe that's why figure skating only appeals to those picky women?, just kidding. I don't know.
A dying sport with picky flutz haters?
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Brilliant!
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2007
Some of you might think the discussion has gotten a little too technical, and may get a kick out of this. I had to go into work for a little while this afternoon. When I got to my desk, one of the other engineers was over at his desk checking the college basketball scores on the Internet. I checked the ISU site and saw the sweep.
So I was like - “Hey Dave, the American girls just swept the podium at the Junior World Figure Skating Championships in Germany.”
Showing more interest than I thought he would, he asked, “Really, who were they?”
I replied, “Caroline Zhang, Mirai Nagasu and Ashley Wagner.”
And he answered, “Well, except for that last one, the first two don’t sound very American.”
So I was like - “Hey Dave, the American girls just swept the podium at the Junior World Figure Skating Championships in Germany.”
Showing more interest than I thought he would, he asked, “Really, who were they?”
I replied, “Caroline Zhang, Mirai Nagasu and Ashley Wagner.”
And he answered, “Well, except for that last one, the first two don’t sound very American.”
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- Joined
- Mar 14, 2006
Since my bf is highly patriotic, I announced the great news of the almost total American sweep of Jr Worlds to him this afternoon.
His response was to do a dance of ecstasy in his armchair that lasted a long 10 seconds, after which he got up and started hopping for "joy." All entirely satirical. (He is a somewhat stuffy academic.) I was splitting my sides.
Oh well.
hwell: And I haven't heard back from the NY Times yet either.:sheesh: At least I have you guys. 
His response was to do a dance of ecstasy in his armchair that lasted a long 10 seconds, after which he got up and started hopping for "joy." All entirely satirical. (He is a somewhat stuffy academic.) I was splitting my sides.
Oh well.
hwell: And I haven't heard back from the NY Times yet either.:sheesh: At least I have you guys.
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- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Actually, your pal sounds like a jerk to me. Aren't there any American engineers at your firm with names like Zhang or Nagasu?
Exactly my thoughts, too!
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